Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

AoS, sure..ill try it out. 150 Archy model? Pushing it but what the heck, its a centerpiece purchase. 200 USD for a 120 page BOOK. They have lost it. I mean it better have gold leaf print for that price. Pure insanity. AoS wont kill GW, GW will kill GW. I see myself as a whale. I can and have dropped a thousand USD at a time on this hobby, but even I see that price point as a complete ripoff. There are not enough whales in the ocean at this point. I see a sinking ship.

Another case of being sent to the Australian version of the GW website? I think so. Unless you're talking about the limited edition, in which case they always overinflate because of "exclusive" reasons.

 Grimskul wrote:
Another case of being sent to the Australian version of the GW website? I think so. Unless you're talking about the limited edition, in which case they always overinflate because of "exclusive" reasons.

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Battletome-Everchosen-Limited-Edition


Its real.

I think this is a case of a little more than over inflation.

I was trying to say that for the most part its par for the course for Gdubs. If Archaon being 150 (200 for us Canadians) didn't throw you off I'm surprised that the limited edition did. They seem to be doubling down on the price issue that plagued fantasy rather than making it accessible in AoS, it seems to generally be the case as well for their battletomes. Also considering that most of the other limited editions were similar in price, I'm surprised that this was the one tipped you over.

Anything that's 'limited edition' is a ripoff. Welcome to the world of collectibles. Go take a look at a limited edition or misprint Amiibo or the Pipboy that was sent out with Fallout 4 or a limited edition car. It's beyond ridiculous but some people want that exclusivity and if they have the money, let them have it. You don't need to buy it so don't worry about it.

Also wondering why this is in the 40k section when it's a Fantasy item...

Who cares about limited edition books anyway, other than folks having trouble spending all the money that they make? They're worthless. None of the limited GW books appreciate in value. You'd be lucky to get back what you paid for a few years, or months, down the road.

Even the bog-standard Archaon book is hardly necessary - you can grab all the rules for the models from the GW page.

 -DE- wrote:
Who cares about limited edition books anyway, other than folks having trouble spending all the money that they make? They're worthless. None of the limited GW books appreciate in value. You'd be lucky to get back what you paid for a few years, or months, down the road.

Even the bog-standard Archaon book is hardly necessary - you can grab all the rules for the models from the GW page.

Other than the fact they're not selling out is a very good indicator of the health (or lack thereof) of the game?

That is why you should care.

The End Times books sold out in hours. Sometimes even minutes. Yet GW are still sitting on copies of all of the limited AoS books. I know you'll come bs k with the old "but in this game the rules are free so of course they have not sold out!" Well so are the rules for KoW, Infinity and several others and their rulebooks are selling out all the time.

The only other limited editions that have never sold out from GW are Dreadfleet and the Hobbit boxed game. I would be majorly concerned if I were you.

I'm not going to say anything, because I agree. I was just remarking that judging the cost of the game by the cost of limited edition merchandise is silly.

You can buy the starter set and have lots of fun with just its contents, whether GW floats or sinks within a year. Or ten.

 Grimtuff wrote:
I would be majorly concerned if I were you.

Well, there are other ways to look at it.

Speaking as a publisher, you should never, ever run out of your core books. It causes all sorts of problems, from distributors not trusting you to handle your own lines properly, to gamers not being able to get into the game and thus not buying everything else you produce for it. When stock starts to get low, you order a reprint, and I think we can imagine that GW has sufficient stock control to print enough to cover themselves and give decent forewarning of when to reprint. Not knocking the likes of CB and Mantic, I have run out of core books myself in the past

There is also the possibility that a publisher might intentionally print a lower number of books - maybe they cannot afford a larger run at the particular moment, maybe they have completely misjudged demand or maybe, just maybe, they intentionally want to go OOP to create the illusion of demand. I have seen this happen many times in the RPG market where a publisher throws out a huge banner proclaiming their latest masterpiece sold out in less than a month, but a bit of digging shows they only printed a thousand books, so of course it would sell out.

It happens.

Another view is that maybe GW are not altogether worried about AoS books at all. They make their money from the standard editions, of which they know pretty much how many they will sell (and adjust print runs to match), and they are used to create the background upon which Black Library books and perhaps models are based. The whole point of AoS (in this point of view, not saying it is right) is the selling of models and the books only support that effort. If those models then get used for 8th edition, 9th Age or KoW, then it is just possible that no one at GW gives a hoot - the models are still getting sold.

As an aside, I do have this theory that AoS is a sneaky attack on Mantic. Mantic can sell all the rulebooks they like - as far as GW is concerned, Mantic can have a big book selling party, and it won't make any difference because GW sell all the models for the game. This leaves Mantic selling books alone, of which they are likely to sell precisely one to a gamer (until a supplement comes out, and then progressively fewer gamers pick them up, standard sales model for these games), leaving them with just Kickstarters to support their (expensive) plastic production. GW remains top dog because more people buy their models even if they are playing KoW - partially because of Mantic's own desire to grab GW gamers, which may work out in the short term, but may come back to bite them on the bum in the long term. There is no way Mantic (or anyone else in this industry, actually) can produce a Varanguard or Archaon model, or even a Bloodthirster, come to that. If you want the prettiest models for this part of the genre, GW is where it is at.

Added to that, I heard a little whisper recently that GW stores were going to allow any game to be played in their stores, so long as GW models were used. So long as you have your Skaven army (or whatever), you can play KoW in an official GW store. Trying to get this one confirmed at the moment, so may be hogwash, but if it is true, that may be a big two fingers up at Mantic - 'you try to take our customers, we'll make sure they never touch your models.' That could actually work...

Anyway, that is just a theory. Take it for what it is worth.

As for the limited editions, it does not look great when you do a search for 'limited' on GW's web site. However, GW probably have a good idea by now of how many they are going to sell, and if they know they will sell X copies of a limited edition in the first month (when most will be sold) and can ensure they are in profit from those sales, then they may not be too worried. The remaining copies do not take up much space (because there are not too many of them), and so they just sit there and sell a copy every now and again, contributing to the bottom line, but they have already made their money on them.

Not saying any of this is right, just a counterpoint!

Quite true about Kings of War. Miniatures from Mantic aren't so appealing at the moment and they need to expand their range faster than that.

Otherwise, people coming from That Old Game still use their GW miniatures. 'cause they barely have any change to them so that they can play KoW.

As long as GW sell models, that's only what truly matters to them. Books? That's just bonus, to me. Anyway, their main purpose is that people get inspired to buy more miniatures.

I know my local GW store allow any GW games to be played within, including old specialist games like Blood Bowl. But I never heard anything about the other games...Maybe it's a UK only thing, since there are so many "generic wargame rulesets" here?

Something that may be bothering, though, is if GW makes a rule out of the Varanguard box. 100$ for 3 big knights like...now that's not really appealing at all to buy many boxes, even for another game. I just hope they will not follow that crazy road for the other races...but then, I think I'm already fooling myself on that matter, unfortunately.

 Sarouan wrote:

Something that may be bothering, though, is if GW makes a rule out of the Varanguard box. 100$ for 3 big knights like.

That could be a concern, but... I am going to withhold judgement until I am actually holding one, all built, in my hands.

I suspect that the Varanguard are larger than we think - and GW's photos don't do the company any favours in this regard. Everyone went a bit dippy when the Dreadhold was released because of the pricing, but when you actually put together a Skull Keep or, Khorne forbid, the Overlord Bastion, you get how BIG they are. Even the Skull Keep towers over an Imperial Knight and, when you view it like that, the pricing is not altogether nasty.

We all want to pay less for stuff, of course, but if the Varanguard are Dracoth-size, then I might be kinda okay with that price (especially as they are effectively a unit of heroes and not a Chaos Knight replacement - you might ever only want three, six absolute tops).

Put another way, if they released a Chaos Lord on a massive big daemonic mount for $33, I don't think people would have much of an issue. This is a box set with three of those.

They might just be priced correctly...

MongooseMatt wrote:

 Sarouan wrote:

Something that may be bothering, though, is if GW makes a rule out of the Varanguard box. 100$ for 3 big knights like.

That could be a concern, but... I am going to withhold judgement until I am actually holding one, all built, in my hands.

I suspect that the Varanguard are larger than we think - and GW's photos don't do the company any favours in this regard. Everyone went a bit dippy when the Dreadhold was released because of the pricing, but when you actually put together a Skull Keep or, Khorne forbid, the Overlord Bastion, you get how BIG they are. Even the Skull Keep towers over an Imperial Knight and, when you view it like that, the pricing is not altogether nasty.

We all want to pay less for stuff, of course, but if the Varanguard are Dracoth-size, then I might be kinda okay with that price (especially as they are effectively a unit of heroes and not a Chaos Knight replacement - you might ever only want three, six absolute tops).

Put another way, if they released a Chaos Lord on a massive big daemonic mount for $33, I don't think people would have much of an issue. This is a box set with three of those.

They might just be priced correctly...

They are Dracoth sized. Even bigger if you discount the hammer/pennant combo as part of the Celestant's 'size'. They're huge.

I think as well GW has found success with the big-ticket sets, despite the moaning about the price online. I personally have not bought any of the very expensive kits (the most I'll go so far is a Maggoth Lord) but I see photos of people painting up new models from these kits all the time. I see them more than the standard "troop" kits.

Though I have always liked the little guys, I know I've run across many people in gaming who are drawn to the big baddies first and foremost.

I bought a box of varanguard. Chaos is my primary army. The varanguard model is maybe a touch larger than the Bloodcrusher model though if I model the Bloodcrusher model right I can make them equal in size.

$100 for 3 models is unacceptable to most people though.

A week later, I'm the only one that bought a box after the release and thats telling, and makes my heart hurt because I have a lot invested in the warhammer universe and every passing month it looks like more and more I am going to either have to learn to love playing warhammer/AoS with myself, or vomit a little in my mouth and play kings of war if I want to play a fantasy game.

There's hope for Dragon Rampant as well but as they don't have a tournament circuit I'm doubtful my area will pick up on it.

If it makes you feel better, Archaon is the size of an Imperial knight, so fething MASSIVE.

 Brennonjw wrote:
If it makes you feel better, Archaon is the size of an Imperial knight, so fething MASSIVE.

It is unnecessarily massive. Normal monster sized kits are dwarfed by it.

Next step, $450 Dragon kit to be in scale with Archaon. (Comes with optional heads and tails to make any of the High Elf, Dark Elf, Forest, Chaos varieties)

 keezus wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
If it makes you feel better, Archaon is the size of an Imperial knight, so fething MASSIVE.

It is unnecessarily massive. Normal monster sized kits are dwarfed by it.

Next step, $450 Dragon kit to be in scale with Archaon. (Comes with optional heads and tails to make any of the High Elf, Dark Elf, Forest, Chaos varieties)

good lord, GW (and chaos ) fans will whine about anything.

MongooseMatt wrote:

Put another way, if they released a Chaos Lord on a massive big daemonic mount for $33, I don't think people would have much of an issue. This is a box set with three of those.

They might just be priced correctly...

The correct price will always be the one customers will be ready to pay.

And yes, you can use them easily as heroes or lords or whatever cool character you want to lead your armies/warbands. Taking just one box so that you have three characters isn't that much since you will not take a lot more anyway (most likely only one box - you usually don't really need that many heroes on Daemonic Mount/whatever Chaos spawned).

But there, my point is that you will not really have the need to take a lot more, unless you really have a lot of money to spend and really want a small army of those.

The others, well...will just use the old way; take a cheaper box that looks alike and make some conversions. Yeah, Chaos Knights or Bloodcrushers may do the stuff, with more or less work.

Also, for Archaon...you only need one Archaon at all. It's like Nagash or the Celestant Prime; cool centerpiece model, but who will really take multiple boxes of those? And for what purpose? Will we see a 200$ model for Malerion on his Shadow Dragon? Hey, that may be a really cool model, though...

 Sarouan wrote:
Will we see a 200$ model for Malerion on his Shadow Dragon? Hey, that may be a really cool model, though...

I would throw money all day long at such a model. Especially if Malekith is made to look more like a winged demon (like in the book). I'd love to see him remade in Illidan's(warcraft) image.

 Brennonjw wrote:

 keezus wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
If it makes you feel better, Archaon is the size of an Imperial knight, so fething MASSIVE.

It is unnecessarily massive. Normal monster sized kits are dwarfed by it.

Next step, $450 Dragon kit to be in scale with Archaon. (Comes with optional heads and tails to make any of the High Elf, Dark Elf, Forest, Chaos varieties)

good lord, GW (and chaos ) fans will whine about anything.

Haha... I'm only half kidding. There is something to be considered having something huge and top heavy in the middle of the battlefield (where most of the action occurs), surrounded by little dudes that need to be moved and removed. I think GW's design team is obviously following a "wow factor" first, and all other considerations second, kind of direction.

I'm not sure I understand fussing about the price of a limited edition book. Those are always marked up. You don't get much more luxury-priced than a collector's edition of a collector's hobby product. If you want the content, there are many other options, more than there have ever been in the past, in fact:

Hard back, non-limited: $58
iBook version: $48
ebook version: $32
Battle pack (i.e. just the rules): $11.99

Pick what works for you. I have never sprung for a limited edition because I'd rather spend that money on models. Or food for my children.

Being upset about model price is a little more understandable to me, though I don't always agree with the hyperbolic language used in said complaints...

1) It's not an essential item for playing the game
2) It's a 'limited edition' item that translates as 'money grab from collectors' - those willing to pay through the nose just to have something 'rare' to show off with / feel special / superior


I'd save the annoyance for when they demand that sort of price for something required for play - then it is essentially unfair tax. In this case it's a voluntary choice/tax that won't affect your gaming experience

 Grimskul wrote:
I was trying to say that for the most part its par for the course for Gdubs. If Archaon being 150 (200 for us Canadians) didn't throw you off I'm surprised that the limited edition did.

Archaon is $165 USD, right?

As someone who is willing to work with resin, the pricing of things like this causes me to give business to other companies (for a big creature like this, usually Mierce Miniatures, for smaller resin models, any number of small companies).

I actually have considered GW's troop prices to be the best in the business for a long time now. But I do think the pricing of the new AoS releases is a whole different category altogether... I'm wondering what their market is, and if the profit will make up for the reduced volume.

coldgaming wrote:
I think as well GW has found success with the big-ticket sets, despite the moaning about the price online. I personally have not bought any of the very expensive kits (the most I'll go so far is a Maggoth Lord) but I see photos of people painting up new models from these kits all the time. I see them more than the standard "troop" kits.

Though I have always liked the little guys, I know I've run across many people in gaming who are drawn to the big baddies first and foremost.

Once their best selling miniatures of 2015 list is complete it'll be interesting to see how the number of big kits vs standard troops compare.

Personally I don't find the prices for the big kits all that excessive. No-one else makes huge Tyranid monsters, or something like the Archaon.

It's the idea of £20 for a cavalry figure that turns me off, or £22 for a infantry figure (Ad-Mech Arch-Priest Dominus, I saw it in the Oxford shop today.)

However this is to a great extent academic, since I won't pay the prices they ask for rules and codexes anyway, and therefore I don't play any more.

Well you don't need to pay for AoS rules

Archaon is seriously massive. Bigger than a Knight easily. I saw him in person yesterday at the local GW and was blown away by him, and I'll be getting one after Christmas.

You know what else is bigger than a knight? A dreamforge leviathan.

I got 2 for the same price as GW are asking for Archaon in oz.

 jonolikespie wrote:
You know what else is bigger than a knight? A dreamforge leviathan.

I got 2 for the same price as GW are asking for Archaon in oz.

Then you actually have something cheaper in Australia . In EU I can find it roughly at the same price as Archaon.

It fell from $120 to $84 here in the US. You can almost get two leviathans for one archaon. Nevermind scratch that lol Archaon $165, two leviathans $168. $3 isn't really a difference at that point IMO.

But we already know GW charge excessively so that's not news.

Well, the good news is that should you ever change your mind and want one, they'll have plenty available for you. Maybe this AoS disaster will teach the company a little humility, but more likely they'll just be dead in ten years.