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I'm hoping someone out there can be a sounding board with their own thoughts on this. So here is my thinking...

Most would agree, Imperial Knights impose a certain imbalance to the game... while some say its because of them all being superheavies it seems to me more of a case of extreme spaminess. Regardless the fundamental issue with using "Imperial Knight" armies is they don't have anything but Knights... Yet in the fluff they do; they have retainers, men-at-arms, and household guard, that "sometimes follow their Lord into battle," to paraphrase.

There isn't really any detailed description of these retainers or what form they take and so I'm curious what people think they'd be like?

On one hand the Knight worlds are all "survivors of the Dark Age," with generally better technology then the average Imperial world. In some ways the Mechanicus are envious and yet they still have a leg up. I would guess this would place these foot soldiers somewhere in the ballpark of Stormtrooper/Scions and Skitarii?

-Notionally in the 30k militia rules, "Survivors of the Dark Age" are pretty much Storm Troopers with power armor, Rhinos, and land raiders; would it make sense that this idea would be as applicable to Knight worlds as it applied to other sufficiently advanced worlds?

On the other hand Knight nobles pretty much see themselves as the center of their world's martial prowess, so would they even consider these types of soldiers important enough or that those soldiers are even at risk often enough to warrant the best their worlds might offer a foot soldier? Should they be quality troops or fodder?

Whatever broader understanding of Knight worlds we might one day get, Knights will always be at the center of things, so it seems a reasonable question to ask "in a practical way how would footsoldiers fit into an army of superheavy walkers?" It seems reasonable to believe that their footsoldiers would do the things an individual in a giant mech can't do or can't do efficiently; its not practical for a Knight to garrison an outpost alone or try and go into a fortification to clear it out or man it or go after one stray enemy... I also imagine these soldiers would have the responsibility of recovering a Knight noble from his wrecked Knight as such an army wouldn't want to divide its limited supersized combat resources as it'd likely cost them battles.

It seems like a fluffy way to make Knight armies less extreme and less spammy, so it seems an appealing to bring a certain sense of balance.

I always thought of Imperial Knights as "Bretonnians IN SPACE" where their retainers are actual medieval-style swordsman and horse riders. Kinda like the old Escaflowne Anime (where the Knights are seen as almost a magical being rather than a mechanical construct).

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I always thought of Imperial Knights as "Bretonnians IN SPACE" where their retainers are actual medieval-style swordsman and horse riders. Kinda like the old Escaflowne Anime (where the Knights are seen as almost a magical being rather than a mechanical construct).

My initial thought when I was thinking about it was "I wonder if Knight worlds are where Inquisitors get their Crusaders?" It fits most of the requisites of being comparably capable to Stormtroopers and Skitarii while being characteristically distinguished; technologically separated from what's commonly available yet balanced.

I like to imagine those same sort of Crusaders riding around on mechanical horses.

Bretonnians in space is why I wonder "but then should the foot soldiers be fodder?" Or is the power divide between Knight titan and infantry to say relatively speaking all infantry are fodder to a Knight?

I'd imagine a Knight's retainers are the ones who try to be the cosmic roadbump to slow down whatever is besieging the Knight's home while the Knight pilot gets ready to actually pilot it.

After the Knight is operational, it becomes a curbstomp battle.

Knights. Imbalance.




Not sure if you even know what imbalance is, kiddo.

Please don't.

I think anytime an army relies entirely on spamming a single type of unit that spamming imposes a certain kind of imbalance by rendering excessive portions of an army incapable of acting. Imperial Knights have to.

Relying on one unit from one army isn't balancing it's just countering and besides I tried to emphasize that I see this as equal parts internal and external imbalance; that either alone justifies the line of question and some sort of addition in the form of a non-knight unit.

Titan Legions allowed Knight Household cards to take Imperial Guard detachment cards (platoons/squadrons/superheavies) as support to represent household troops brought from their homeworld. They had to stick pretty close as the Household Seneschal counted as the HQ unit for the 'Guard'.

Id say inquisitorial detachments have the level of tech and eclectic-ness (along with crusaders) to be knight retainers.

Condemnor crossbows, force hammers, warrior monks, techpriests and servitors, it's the perfect knight fluffy accompanying force.

With the Henchmen approach I picture the sort of depiction of the Knight on the hunt and the various household members who come along to watch or help afterwards.

I like the idea of using Inquistion henchmen as a Knight's retainers... When i think of medieval set stories there are two sorts of depictions: the one where Knights lead these massive lines of troops and then the sort where the Knight's personal household is only a small band a few fighters, maybe a priest, and some other personalities that feel more like fantasy adventuring D&D group... I think Henchmen definitely give you more of the intimate feel of the latter. It retains that small elite feel of the army.

Been thinking about it, and if I were to design a Knight Household army list, I'd do something like this;

HQ: Barons, Senescals, Armourers (like a tech-priest)
Elites: Knights, Huscarls (units of 5-10 with Inq. Crusader stats)
Troops: Men at Arms (units of 10-30 of Guardsmen with halberds, which are +1S CCWs), Levy Militia (10-30 guardsmen with bows, can upgrade to reynbows)
Fast Attack: Knight Lancers, Woodsmen (Guard Veterans with high-tech bows and Camo Cloaks, with wrist-mounted one-shot krak grenade launchers)
Heavy: Knight Wardens, Mobile Field Bases (unarmed super-heavy vehicles that can deploy a gantry that can Blessings of the Omnissiah an adjacent Knight variant).

The Knight household armorers are called Sacristans in the fluff, if I remember correctly.

I find the bows an interesting idea; maybe a bit too space bretonnian. It's a good motif but it's important to remember that Knight worlds are bastions of pre-dark age technology where most don't seem to have as high a population as other imperial worlds. the_scotsman I think had a good idea with condemnor crossbows; they keep that medieval feel while also being reasonably capable. I don't think we should think of their foot soldiers as the peasants going to war like Bretonnians had but more like late medieval French crossbow man who still war platemail despite not being "Knights."

I don't think a traditional FOC really means much to an army that at its most spammy can only bring 5 or 6 of something and where from a tactical point of view already works best when you take a variety of Knights.

As far as how different foot soldiers fit in I picture the medieval sort of arrangement where nobles where he would have only a small number of standing soldiers that were mostly house guards and that when he would get called to fight it would only be that knight and his small group of soldiers going off to meet up with many similar groups to form an army. Maybe all the different foot soldiers units would be "Auxiliaries" and are a one per Knight.

Well, that's why I mentioned the Reynbow upgrade - Reynbows are magnetic induction weapons used to shoot poison darts by the Nihtgane, an abhuman species from Gereon. They're preserved dark-age tech, basically sci fi crossbows.

Source please on thousands of platemailed french crossbowmen?

The house guards you mention are the Huscarls I put as an Elites choice - with Men at Arms and militia levy being ordinary citizens who train with weapons once a week, and the Woodsmen are more like the Rangers of Numenor than soldiers.

As for the traditional FoC, it by no means replaces the Knight Detachment - it's just an alternate way of building the army.

On the "huscarl"... I was just saying given my desire to keep an emphasis on Knights that the interpretation of a Knight bringing with him some small contribution to collective forces using what I was talking about as justification keeps the emphasis on Knights by never exceeding a one to one ratio.

As interpretation of crossbowmen go this guy on the left is what I picture as a starting point:

A model in carapace armor with an exotic weapon keep the technological more advance then the average world, as they've been described.

Full Plate armour as worn by the Crusaders is only a 5+ save, probably because full plate armour as we know it is kind of useless against firearms (although more effective against edged weapons).

That's what would normally be called Munition Plate, which is a lighter, cheaper kind of armour that - unlike full plate - doesn't need to be custom made for its wearer.

When you have a storm shield what does it matter if the rest of your armor is predominantly ornamental. You can look at Witchhunter inquisitors wearing what reasonably looks the same and that's a 4+. It's an inconsistency especially in leu of carapace armor so often being likens to platemail. I imagine the weight of a storm shield makes it prohibitive for the average human to carry while wearing carapace armor.

What I was suggesting for crossbowmen was just a full plate styling of carapace armor. That regardless of their aesthetic that Imperial Knight footsoldiers given their worlds' technological level should have carapace armor, something equivalent or better.

I can see the Knights' soldiers being in Carapace, yeah, but the citizen levies just doesn't feel right to me. If they were that well equipped, they would never settle for being slaves in the first place.

I imagine martial pride would keep them from using non-soldiers as soldiers. Despite going to war, Imperial Knights also don't seem to have the capacity to unilaterally wage war. If they're tithing Knight Titans to the Imperium, the imperium seems more than happy to bring the less capable bodies.

You're joking, right? Historical knights used militias (non-soldiers) all the time. The vast majority of the British troops at Agincourt were non-soldiers.

I was speaking of Imperial Knights not historic Knights. I think the general wealth, prominence, and resources of a Knight world are such that they don't need militia forces where many of those duties are simply provided in moments of need by the great number of allies they have. I see imperial Knights as having a certain pretentious aristocratic view of warfare, that's maybe more akin to the colonial era big game hunter going to the darks of Africa.