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Hi Guys,

Working on some IW lists, trying to stick to the contents of 2x BaC boxes and have some questions on worthwhile things.

I like Hammer of Olympia, but thinking that PotL is a better RoW, making Tyrants scoring just seems really useful overall, plus I feel like it's going to be hard to pull off a rapid fire then charge for my normal bolter guys.

Also, having trouble deciding on my HQ, I mean a Preator obv, for the RoW, but then I am thinking what else is worth sticking on him? Blind Helm seems OK to prevent getting assaulted, anything else that I am missing? I am thinking Cataphractii and sticking him with a squad of Iron Havocks so that they can move and shoot (at least get to better firing positions and then shoot).

Also, I am partial to using the stuff in the box, so are Iron Havocks with ML any good? Tank hunter and Flakk on ML's seems solid, and it's a cheap upgrade for them, but then free Auto Cannos is pretty nice too, esp with Tankhunter.

 More Dakka wrote:
Hi Guys,

Working on some IW lists, trying to stick to the contents of 2x BaC boxes and have some questions on worthwhile things.

I like Hammer of Olympia, but thinking that PotL is a better RoW, making Tyrants scoring just seems really useful overall, plus I feel like it's going to be hard to pull off a rapid fire then charge for my normal bolter guys.

Also, having trouble deciding on my HQ, I mean a Preator obv, for the RoW, but then I am thinking what else is worth sticking on him? Blind Helm seems OK to prevent getting assaulted, anything else that I am missing? I am thinking Cataphractii and sticking him with a squad of Iron Havocks so that they can move and shoot (at least get to better firing positions and then shoot).

Also, I am partial to using the stuff in the box, so are Iron Havocks with ML any good? Tank hunter and Flakk on ML's seems solid, and it's a cheap upgrade for them, but then free Auto Cannos is pretty nice too, esp with Tankhunter.

The best part of IWs are their two special units, so I'd definitely take Siege Tyrants (2x5 or 10 of them) and yes, Iron Havocs with Missile Launchers are excellent. They're actually the same price as normal Havocs with Missiles and flakk, and gain a ton of superior special rules at that point. But, as for an HQ, I'd recommend taking a look at Golg instead of a Praetor, he also is the exact same weapons loadout as the BaC Terminator HQ. I do like Pride of the Legion for IW, as they cater to Terminator armies very well (especially if you add Perty in at higher points).

PotL, while nice, has a major flaw in that if you loose all of your "veterans" (vets and terminators) that's VPs to your opponent. It will be hard to pull off that charge, but when you do, it will be devastating.

Praetor with Paragon blade, digital lasers archeotec + iron halo (if artificer), or grenade launchers (if terminators) this gives you 5/6 attacks at initiative and AP: 2 . Beyond that: I like running my praetor either in a command squad for all the choppy, or in a deathshroud squad, put him in whatever you think he'll be good in. he may be good in iron havocs, but a master of signal or seige breaker would be better.

MLs are always pretty good, though I'm partial to Autocannons due to weight of fire and how cool they look

Beyond that, build what you think looks cool: 30k isn't as competative (it seems) and more often then not, you need to be less optimized unless your fighting admech (and in that case, autocannon and dreadnoughts for lyfe )

Cool, thanks guys. I am going with ML to start mainly because they look awesome and I want to use up stuff in the box before I start to shell out for parts, upgrades ETC.

This is my outline for PotL as a starting build, I think when I expand I will switch to Hammer of Olympia as I'll add in another tactical squad and move the Tyrants back to Elite, then grab a unit of Auto Cannon Havoks and max out my other Havok/Dev Squads:

2500 Pts
HQ
Praetor with Catphractii and ???

Centurion Seigebreaker

Troops

20 Tacticals, extra CCW
Sgt with Artificer Armor

20 Tacticals, extra CCW
Sgt with Artificer Armor

10 Veteran Tacticals
2x HB with Suspensor web and Shattershard shells
Sgt with Artificer
Snipers
Rhino

10 x Tyrant Siege Terminators (because RAAAAAAA!!!!)

Elites
Contempor with Kheres Auto Cannon/PF

Contempor with Kheres Auto Cannon/PF

Heavy Support

6x Iron Havoks w/ML

6x Heavy Support Squad w/ Heavy Bolters and Shattershard shells (pinning)

 More Dakka wrote:
Cool, thanks guys. I am going with ML to start mainly because they look awesome and I want to use up stuff in the box before I start to shell out for parts, upgrades ETC.

This is my outline for PotL as a starting build, I think when I expand I will switch to Hammer of Olympia as I'll add in another tactical squad and move the Tyrants back to Elite, then grab a unit of Auto Cannon Havoks and max out my other Havok/Dev Squads:

2500 Pts
HQ
Praetor with Catphractii and ???

Centurion Seigebreaker

Troops

20 Tacticals, extra CCW
Sgt with Artificer Armor

20 Tacticals, extra CCW
Sgt with Artificer Armor

10 Veteran Tacticals
2x HB with Suspensor web and Shattershard shells
Sgt with Artificer
Snipers
Rhino

10 x Tyrant Siege Terminators (because RAAAAAAA!!!!)

Elites
Contempor with Kheres Auto Cannon/PF

Contempor with Kheres Auto Cannon/PF

Heavy Support

6x Iron Havoks w/ML

6x Heavy Support Squad w/ Heavy Bolters and Shattershard shells (pinning)

Looks good, though I'm telling you: Paragon blade + digital lasers and the grenade launcher that terminators can take in 30k is one of the better loadouts you can give him 5/6 S: 5 AP: 2 attacks at innitiative, with a chance of getting ID.

I actually had this very same question this post is perfect! However I have a 3rd set of cataphractii and was wondering, will I ever really need more than 10 Tyrants? I'm thinking probably not, but what do I do with them then? I've honestly never played a marine army and have no idea

As pricey as they are, using more than a squad of ten is kind of a waste unless you want 3 squads of 5, but that's almost what over 200 points of tax. Just stick with 10 and use the extra for regular terminators or a command squad.

I agree the min unit tax seems pretty steep, unless it's the only squad of X unit you are taking. Command squads seems pretty good, having a legion standard would be very helpful for an infantry heavy IW army too, probably something I'll expand to eventually.

@Brennonjw, that loadout does look pretty nice, but for some reason the Paragon blade isn't selling me. At S5 it's so-so at hacking down terminators and PA guys, against IC's sure you can ID them, but then so can any wound from a PF.

What does the GL do, just give him frag grenades?

Strength 5 is not so-so for killing other Space Marines, the Praetor build detailed above averages three dead Marines/two dead Terminators on the charge before they can strike back. That might not sound that impressive but in 30K where you have standard squad Sergeants with 2+ armor saves and power fists that can punk a poorly equipped Praetor, having at-Initiative Strength 5 AP2 attacks is an utter godsend - especially seeing as Terminators are fairly common in 30K and pretty much everyone uses a beat-stick character! Think of it like this; if you take a power fist over a paragon blade, your Praetor will be dead-meat for a good chunk of other characters in 30K and won't be able to do anything, or will achieve mutual destruction against a significantly cheaper squad Sergeant....which you don't want.

The Grenade Harness on a Praetor/Terminator Sergeant gives the carrier and their unit Assault Grenades, essentially, and it also has a light shooting attack. It's amazing for Praetors, Terminators that have mixed weapons, etc.

As for general Iron Warriors stuff....Iron Havocs with Missile Launchers are great because they are pretty much the same price as a similar Heavy Support squad with Frag/Krak/Flakk missiles but gain Tank Hunters and -1 to cover saves on whatever they shoot at. They are expensive and tend to "overkill" things but they are strong nonetheless, especially as they can re-roll failed armor saves against the templates that don't ignore their 3+ armor such as Thudd Guns. Still, like anything with power armor in 30K, Whirlwind Scorpius' will give them nightmares meaning you don't want to go all-in on them.

Siege Tyrants are pretty widely considered one of the best units in 30K period and definitely in the top three-five of unique Legion units. They are priced appropriately for what they do, tough as nails due to Cataphractii armor, are still nasty in combat with unit-wide power fists/chainfists, and how can you go past an entire unit with night-vision supported cyclone missile launchers? Attach a Siege Breaker and watch the carnage, and don't forget the Sergeant can Split-Fire. Also, per the FAQ, they can shoot both their combi-bolters and cyclone missile launchers at the same time, meaning you can gun down large/really tough infantry units through sheer weight of shots. Siege Tyrants are crazily expensive despite how valuable they are so taking one big unit will generally be enough for any sized army list unless you play Pride of the Legion.

The characters are cool enough, the Traitor one (Erasmus Gold) is pretty much tailor-made for Terminator builds. He lets you take Terminators as Troops without having to use a Rite of War - and let me tell you, an all-Terminator Iron Warrior army led by Golg and Perturabo is extremely powerful - while also being fairly good in his own right. The awesome thing about Golg is that the Terminator Praetor in Betrayal at Calth has pretty much the exact same wargear as Golg, you just need to attach some kind of sensor to his back to represent a Nuncio Vox and maybe do a head-swap.

The Loyalist character (Kyr Vhalen) is much more interesting, he is a Warsmith that rules-as-intended actually gets a Warlord Trait (and a really good one at that), he has great wargear for a Praetor (his Relic Blade is actually a Paragon Blade per the FAQ, he has a Servo-Arm to add a single S8 AP2 Unwieldy attack and can repair vehicles, nice Volkite weapon, 2+ 4++ for saves, etc), he gives you a Cortex Controller for allied AdMech which are REALLY good, Melta Bombs for taking down heavy vehicles/buildings, etc. He plays around with terrain a lot which is awesome for a gun-line army like Iron Warriors, plus he has 4 Wounds so he is incredibly tanky. All-around once you remember he has a Paragon Blade he's easily one of the best value special characters in 30K as well.

Just to put it into perspective on how valuable Vhalen is....he is 20 points CHEAPER than a Praetor equipped identically to him, but Vhalen gets the following for being 20 points CHEAPER; an extra Wound (huge!), Feel No Pain (6+), a one-use-only ability to stop an enemy charging unit from getting any charge bonuses and Hammer of Wrath against Vhalens' unit, either +1 to a fortifications' armor value or re-rolling 1s for cover saves with it, plus his Warlord Tait which gives a single Iron Warriors unit re-rolls of 1s to hit in shooting while they remain in their deployment zone. So...how about ten Iron Havocs with Missile Launchers manning an Aegis Defence Line? Mmmm....

Then you get Perturabo....equipped with Forgebreaker, he is an utter beast. He has more wargear than any other Primarch you can think of making him the ultimate tool-box character, he can engage almost everything short of hordes by himself and win, he has massive army-buffs for Iron Warriors making them have some of the best all-round Leadership-based abilities in the game, he makes all-Terminator armies utterly terrifying, and to top it off he is easily one of the top Primarch 1v1 duelists, He's the second most expensive at just a few handfuls' worth of points behind Horus but he is worth it without a doubt.

Their Legion rules are also what most would consider "mid-tier" for Legions, those that think they fit more to an extreme i.e. being awful don't really understand the advantages and disadvantages at play. Outright ignoring or re-rolling against two of the most important Leadership-based tests in a rule-set where ATSKNF doesn't exist and Fearless is expensive as hell is a downright godsend. They are phenomenal in objective games because no matter how many casualties you inflict on a unit, they never run away from shooting. However, they are just as vulnerable as any other Legion in combat, but take Perturabo and Legion Vexillas' in each unit and this weakness also disappears. Iron Warriors are a gun-line army that doesn't break, which in 30K terms means they are essentially super Tau (who instead run away all the damn time). It's not an amazing buff as again they are still vulnerable to running away in combat and there are much better Legion rules out there, but they are solid enough. The whole re-rolling failed armor penetration rolls against buildings with grenades is.....cute. The Bitter End is very much a disadvantage as being forced to go an extra turn rather than rolling off randomly can obviously be game-changing in objective based games.....while it also acts as a tool for other players to get draws in tournaments by letting the time run out!

Very much the theme of Iron Warriors is that their Legion Tactics are solid, their Rite of War is mediocre, but all their unique units/characters are some of the best in 30K. Perturabo ranks as one of the strongest Primarchs in pretty much every facet - heck, he even has an incredible Orbital Bombardment that is arguably better than Horus' due to the D3 shots - while the other characters are great in their own way or fit specific builds perfectly, whereas Siege Tyrants are some of the most feared Legion-specific Terminators in 30K and Iron Havocs are just a great value unit. Working out their play-style is very much dependent on what characters you take; Perturabo and Golg definitely fit the "Pride of the Legion" style lists, whereas Kyr Vhalen is what you want if you feel like playing the traditional gun-line Iron Warrior build. Just keep in mind that Iron Warriors aren't actually better shooters than other Legions, the only thing that really sets them apart for gun-line builds being their unique units and access to a 4th Heavy Support slot in the traditional Age of Darkness FOC.

Hopefully this helps!

 More Dakka wrote:
I agree the min unit tax seems pretty steep, unless it's the only squad of X unit you are taking. Command squads seems pretty good, having a legion standard would be very helpful for an infantry heavy IW army too, probably something I'll expand to eventually.

@Brennonjw, that loadout does look pretty nice, but for some reason the Paragon blade isn't selling me. At S5 it's so-so at hacking down terminators and PA guys, against IC's sure you can ID them, but then so can any wound from a PF.

What does the GL do, just give him frag grenades?

The thing is S5 is fairly balanced at chopping marines, but what the real kicker is, is the at initiative AP: 2. Since srgts. can take artificer, it's better to cut them down BEFORE they get to use their power fist not at the same time. Pair the paragon blade with digital lasers and make it master crafted, and now you have 6 attacks on the charge, at Initiative 5, negating all armor saves, typically wounding 2/3 the time, re-rolling 1 miss, whats not to love? (it's even better for DG who can take a relic that causes -1 toughness within 6' of him, makin' ya wound on 2's ) Also, the GL gives your terminator-equipped praetor assault grenades if he uses it.

Caederes hits the nail basically on the head.