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Lets try this out here, since apparently over on B&C nobody gives a gak:

I've always been a bigger fan of the vatmuscle-bulked, chem-riddled, bionically-enhanced techno-barbarian style of Skitarii described in Mechanicum and Titanicus than I am of the "Guardsmen in robes with metal feet" look GW eventually ended up going with(just personal taste, before anyone thinks I'm attacking folk who disagree), a feeling which has been rekindled recently by migsula's amazing model(on the left), which for me captures that style perfectly even though I don't think it's supposed to be a Skitarii. I decided to chuck together some rules to represent such models in the Heresy era(since I have a horrible suspicion FW are going to cop-out and just use the plastic GW models for the eventual Martian Skitarii unit that will come in the Mars book, which means they'll not be particularly impressive rules-wise). I was aiming to have the basic Hypastist be roughly equivalent to but not a duplicate of a Space Marine Veteran, with the option to splurge points and transform the unit into something suitably Mechanicum-mental if you want to.



This is a first draft obviously, so everything is provisional - I'm interested to see if people think there are any areas that are under/over powered or under/over costed:

Martian Skitarii Hypastoi Maniple - 130pts WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv Hypasist - 3 4 4 4 1 3 2 7 4+ Alpha - 3 4 4 4 2 3 2 8 4+ Unit Comp; 4 Skitarii Hypaspists 1 Skitarii Alpha Unit Type; Skitarii: Infantry Skitarii Alpha: Infantry(Character) Wargear; Lorica Thallax Laslock CCW Frag Grenades Special Rules; Stubborn Dedicated Transport; May select a Triaros Armoured Conveyor as a DT for +135 points. OPTIONS The squad may include: -Up to an additional 10 Skitarii Hypaspists ... +15pts/model The entire squad may have: -Induction Chargers ... +15pts -The Rite of Pure Thought ... +20pts One in five Skitarii in the unit may replace their Laslock for one of the following weapons: -Irad-cleanser ... +10pts -Phase plasma-fusil ..+20pts -Multi-melta ... +25pts The Maniple may be given one of the following Augment Upgrades: -Radiphractii ... +30pts -Toxotai ... +25pts -Ekdromoi ... +35pts Skitarii Augments: Radiphractii - Radiphracts swap their Laslocks for Radium Carbines, gain +1 to their FnP, and may take Rad Grenades at a cost of +15pts for the entire unit. Additionally, the Alpha may take a Rad Furnace for +15pts. Toxotai - Toxotes swap their Laslocks for Galvanic Rifles, gain the Move Through Cover special rule, and one in five models may select a Rotor Cannon for +5pts each instead of the other optional weapons. Ekdromoi - Ekdromos exchange their Laslocks for Makhaira-pattern Heavy Chainblades, and the whole unit are equipped with Frenzon Shunts, granting them the Rage USR.

Thoughts;

I do like the alternate Skitarii from Mechanicum/Titanicus - the 'Augmetic Gorilla' is just as appealing as the 'Clockwork Stormtrooper'.

I suspect you'll find that FW may do both - even if the Skitarii do get 'brought through' you may well find that there are different 'bolt-on' units. Note that the 'Augmetic Gorilla' stormtroopers, each time we see them, are the 'ground support' element for the Titan Legions, and to date the only Collegia Titanicus units we've seen are the titans themselves.

First thoughts:

a) They shouldn't have Lorica Thallax. That's specifically Thallaxi gear - or for units which are derivatives of thallax - the 'brain in a jar' brigade. I've no problem with their armour having the same rules, but give it a different name...

b) The maniple's base cost is horrendously overpriced. 5 guys with 4+ saves and laslocks should not cost nearly the price of 10 legion tactical marines.

c) Frankly, making them 15 points a model is probably too much. Again, a space marine (who has better armour and a better statline) with a bolter (which is a better gun) costs 2/3 of that.

d) Induction chargers help a bit with firepower. But Titanicus skitarii are emphatically a close-quarter unit - the odd special weapon aside (grenade launchers are mentioned) they should primarily be armed with shock weapons and chainblades, not guns.

e) No rite of pure thought. The Skitarii are repeatedly stated as being equipped with combat drug dispensors and aggression-heightening implants. They would not be given the Rite - which is essentially an emotional lobotomy - because their aggression is something the titan legions emphatically make use of.

f) I would probably rebuild them from scratch. They shouldn't be a rifle unit as much as an assault unit with good special weapon options - I would probably start with heavy chainblades as default armament. Don't bulk them out too much - T4 is fine, although I might say 2 wound each. T5 is too much - Thallaxi units are mostly metal. But whilst skitarii shouldn't have power armour per se it feels like they should be able to take fire as well as or better than marines (in order to reach close combat through the hail of fire legions can put out, they'll need it!

locarno24 wrote:
Thoughts;

I do like the alternate Skitarii from Mechanicum/Titanicus - the 'Augmetic Gorilla' is just as appealing as the 'Clockwork Stormtrooper'.

I suspect you'll find that FW may do both - even if the Skitarii do get 'brought through' you may well find that there are different 'bolt-on' units. Note that the 'Augmetic Gorilla' stormtroopers, each time we see them, are the 'ground support' element for the Titan Legions, and to date the only Collegia Titanicus units we've seen are the titans themselves.

First thoughts:

a) They shouldn't have Lorica Thallax. That's specifically Thallaxi gear - or for units which are derivatives of thallax - the 'brain in a jar' brigade. I've no problem with their armour having the same rules, but give it a different name...

b) The maniple's base cost is horrendously overpriced. 5 guys with 4+ saves and laslocks should not cost nearly the price of 10 legion tactical marines.

c) Frankly, making them 15 points a model is probably too much. Again, a space marine (who has better armour and a better statline) with a bolter (which is a better gun) costs 2/3 of that.

d) Induction chargers help a bit with firepower. But Titanicus skitarii are emphatically a close-quarter unit - the odd special weapon aside (grenade launchers are mentioned) they should primarily be armed with shock weapons and chainblades, not guns.

e) No rite of pure thought. The Skitarii are repeatedly stated as being equipped with combat drug dispensors and aggression-heightening implants. They would not be given the Rite - which is essentially an emotional lobotomy - because their aggression is something the titan legions emphatically make use of.

f) I would probably rebuild them from scratch. They shouldn't be a rifle unit as much as an assault unit with good special weapon options - I would probably start with heavy chainblades as default armament. Don't bulk them out too much - T4 is fine, although I might say 2 wound each. T5 is too much - Thallaxi units are mostly metal. But whilst skitarii shouldn't have power armour per se it feels like they should be able to take fire as well as or better than marines (in order to reach close combat through the hail of fire legions can put out, they'll need it!

Thanks for the feedback. To lay out my thinking a little as to why they are as they are;

On the Lorica Thallax - fair point, it was just a useful shorthand, I could add the benefits and drawbacks to the unit entry directly.

On costs - I'm always hesitant to cost homebrew stuff too low to start out with, but in this case I'm not sure that they're that overpriced. As I said I was using Veteran Legionaries as my "baseline", against whom the Hypastoi lose 1 WS, I, and Ld, but gain Stubborn. 3+ vs 4+/6+ FNP is a wash points-wise IMO. I could see dropping them to maybe 120 starting cost, but no less. Given the potentially larger unit size and the available upgrades, I think 15ppm for the additional members is probably right, but what would you set it at out of interest?

On role/fluff - These aren't explicitly Titan Legio Skitarii. This "brand" of AdMech solider might be exemplified by the ones from Titanicus, but the ones mentioned in Mechanicum aren't specifically linked to the Legios, and similarly vat-bulked/chem-ridden soldiers are described in the ...of Mars series acting as the forces of an Explorator. That specific subtype of very combat-focused troops is what the Ekdromoi Augment represents. On a related note, the Rite was included primarily as a gameplay option, but there is a fluff basis; the Grey Knights novel Dark Adeptus features a unit of Skitarii with Rite-like personality mods.

... Does that guy sell miniatures?

I'm of the opinion that the stats need to be lower and so do the points costs.

I see skitarii as the basest form of functioning troop; barely a step above thralls (which may well be the battlefield corpses with a computer where the head should be) - GW kinda screwed the party by making the skitarii from 40k essentially 'how they've always looked' with particular mention of their guns being almost the same as when they first started escorting their owners about mars.

FW maintain that the 40k models do not accurately represent skitarii during the great crusade but so far haven't confirmed how they think they'll look one way or the other - at first they inststed that the cults/militia list can be used to represent them, but have also said to me that they can't see any reason why onager dunecrawlers don't exist during the great crusade and that i could use codex:skitarii in age of darkness battles if i wanted to represent skitarii.

The most pertinent point i can make is that skitarii rangers cost 120pts for 10 and vanguard cost 100pts for 10!
The statline for vanguard is about right for a human-based cyborg - i'd be tempted to just give them two CC weapons each, add FNP and see how they fared.

I feel it's also worth noting that in the last black library book i was aware of had 40k skitarii rangers all over the covers - so they may just be leaving the descriptions you've found as the personal variant of a tech-preist who wants them like that due to personl tastes - a bit like 'ursarax', which are basically CC thallax and explained as the pet project of secretive magos.

The cults/militia list may be more like what you want?

 SirDonlad wrote:
I'm of the opinion that the stats need to be lower and so do the points costs.

I see skitarii as the basest form of functioning troop; barely a step above thralls...-snip-

I feel it's also worth noting that in the last black library book i was aware of had 40k skitarii rangers all over the covers - so they may just be leaving the descriptions you've found as the personal variant of a tech-preist who wants them like that due to personl tastes - a bit like 'ursarax', which are basically CC thallax and explained as the pet project of secretive magos.

That may be how GW intend to portray them going forward, seeing as how their MO these days is to only permit fiction that features the Official Models(tm), but luckily GW ain't the boss of me and before their current creative atrophy several talented authors gave us many different formats of Skitarii, one of which is the subject of these homebrew rules. And a quick point; that is the origin of the Ursarax, towards the end of the Great Crusade, the blurb also makes it clear that by the time of the Heresy the design has become far more widespread.

The cults/militia list may be more like what you want?

It is, in fact, the very opposite of what I want.

Okay, well perhaps you should call them something else - this is the entry on the wikia (not a great source, but it is at least linkable)

Hypaspists - Hypaspist Skitarii were the most basic augmented infantrymen of the Tech-Guard and were armed with cybernetically hard-linked Lasguns similar to those used by the soldiers of the Imperial Guard. Hypaspists were generally more powerful and skilled soldiers than standard Guardsmen as a result of the cybernetic enhancements that made them stronger and more accurate than normal humans and the psychosurgery they had undergone to suppress their emotional reactions and make them immune to panic or fear. However, this enhancement also made Hypaspists less independent and able to think for themselves in combat.

this would suggest normal gaurdsman size and stats but with +1S, +1BS, +1WS, -1I and immunity to the 'fear' rule

The model you're planning on using is cool, but it's similar in size to an ogryn not a human - this is more like what you're showing us...

Herakli - The Herakli were Skitarii heavy fire support specialists. These massive, vat-grown cybernetic soldiers were as large as Space Marines and were capable of carrying heavy laser weapons and multi-barrelled Autocannons with ease. The Herakli wore heavy red robes and cowls that were covered in Mechanicus sigils and were protected by thick ceramite amour plating that covered their chests and shoulders.

Again, not what you're saying you're going for, but i'm getting the feeling this is a square peg/round hole scenario with the model you like actually driving the idea.

 SirDonlad wrote:
Okay, well perhaps you should call them something else - this is the entry on the wikia (not a great source, but it is at least linkable)

Hypaspists - Hypaspist Skitarii were the most basic augmented infantrymen of the Tech-Guard and were armed with cybernetically hard-linked Lasguns similar to those used by the soldiers of the Imperial Guard. Hypaspists were generally more powerful and skilled soldiers than standard Guardsmen as a result of the cybernetic enhancements that made them stronger and more accurate than normal humans and the psychosurgery they had undergone to suppress their emotional reactions and make them immune to panic or fear. However, this enhancement also made Hypaspists less independent and able to think for themselves in combat.

this would suggest normal gaurdsman size and stats but with +1S, +1BS, +1WS, -1I and immunity to the 'fear' rule

The model you're planning on using is cool, but it's similar in size to an ogryn not a human - this is more like what you're showing us...

Herakli - The Herakli were Skitarii heavy fire support specialists. These massive, vat-grown cybernetic soldiers were as large as Space Marines and were capable of carrying heavy laser weapons and multi-barrelled Autocannons with ease. The Herakli wore heavy red robes and cowls that were covered in Mechanicus sigils and were protected by thick ceramite amour plating that covered their chests and shoulders.

Again, not what you're saying you're going for, but i'm getting the feeling this is a square peg/round hole scenario with the model you like actually driving the idea.

Neither of those blurbs comes from any official publication that I've ever read, and I'm pretty sure I've read everything GW, FW, and FFG have written about the Mechanicus since 2nd Edition. Herakli have been mentioned only, not yet expanded upon, by the FW team in relation to 30K. The first blurb is extremely loosely based on the old Citadel Journal #21 article from 1997, on a single line in fact from a half-page outline of the Skitarii for Epic; "The Hypaspists form the standard infantry squads, and are armed with Lasguns."

The important part of that sentence, IMO, is the first - Hypaspists are the standard infantry. Even if we ignore that the depictions of "standard" Skitarii since that article in '97 have varied wildly, it refers to 40K(ie, the era being described in that single sentence).

In the 30K era, the Skitarii are a Martian(specifically) force who, according to FW, barely resemble the 40K-era Skitarii(in terms of their soldiery), which are closer to the Autokrator Tech-Guard of the Taghmata. It's only later, as Mars is enforcing greater authority over the previously highly feudal Forge Worlds, that the Martian Skitarii ORBAT(and with it ranks and unit designations like Alpha and Hypaspist) became the standard throughout the Mechanicus. I think using the known Skitarii designation for basic infantry to refer to the basic infantry of the Skitarii of the era is in fact using exactly the right shape of peg for exactly the right shape of hole.

So, now that we've established that I do in fact know the fluff quite well and, as it's my main motivation for being in the hobby in the first place, have spent quite a lot of time thinking about how it interact with these rules before writing them; do you have any comments or feedback on the actual rules I have proposed? And no, "they shouldn't exist, do what I think instead" is not useful feedback.

I never questioned (or cared) about the depth of your knowlege of the more elusive skitarii fluff - but as 'locarno24' ponted out these dudes should be armed with melee weapons like chainblades with occasional special weapons if you're following the 'augmetic guerilla' theme from 'titanicus' - he made some good suggestions, including starting again with a better focus on what you were trying to portray: what you have so far looks like wishlisting all the best equipment from the mechanicum book and skitarii codex troops selections into a single one-size-fits-all unit.

My point about the hyspasists was that they start off and remain human; "..made them stronger and more accurate than normal humans ..." the model you like is clearly not human!!
Whaeras the 'herakli' sounded a bit like what you showed in the picture and were describing -

" ...the vatmuscle-bulked, chem-riddled, bionically-enhanced techno-barbarian... "

as you put it, sounds akin to "vat grown cyber-soldiers the size of a space marine" the herakli are described as in the wikia and lexicanum, hence my suggestion to rename them to suit.


Why are extra dudes in the squad ten points per model cheaper? FW encourage you to take large squads of legion tacticals or terminators by dropping their cost by 5ppm - why are these dudes dropped by 10 each?.

Are you sure that you want to let a 15 man squad have assault3 rad carbines?

The rad furnace drops the toughness of all models in the same combat unless they have one too, even friendly models in their unit.

 SirDonlad wrote:
I never questioned (or cared) about the depth of your knowlege of the more elusive skitarii fluff - but as 'locarno24' ponted out these dudes should be armed with melee weapons like chainblades with occasional special weapons if you're following the 'augmetic guerilla' theme from 'titanicus' - he made some good suggestions, including starting again with a better focus on what you were trying to portray: what you have so far looks like wishlisting all the best equipment from the mechanicum book and skitarii codex troops selections into a single one-size-fits-all unit.

How is this still a thing? I have considered whether to start again and decided not to, then reiterated my original request for feedback on the rules as bloody written. If you don't like them on a fundamental level then feel free to jog on. And telling me I'm wrong and should change the unit because they don't fit the fluff is implicitly questioning my knowledge of said fluff - considering your first recourse was to link the wikia, which is notorious for mixing fanfiction and unjustified extrapolation in with the actual official material, I think I trust my own characterisation more.

My point about the hyspasists was that they start off and remain human; "..made them stronger and more accurate than normal humans ..." the model you like is clearly not human!!

Where does it say that(that they start off and remain human)? Anywhere? Go on, I'll wait.

Whaeras the 'herakli' sounded a bit like what you showed in the picture and were describing -

" ...the vatmuscle-bulked, chem-riddled, bionically-enhanced techno-barbarian... "

as you put it, sounds akin to "vat grown cyber-soldiers the size of a space marine" the herakli are described as in the wikia and lexicanum, hence my suggestion to rename them to suit.

Heralki are servitors, and in HH Book 3 the Sktarii of the era are described as "Ancient standing armies of elite cybernetically and genetically engineered troops...". So, lets walk through the logic again:

1. The unit designation for the basic 40K Skitarii infantry is Hypaspist.
2. 30K Skitarii are not 40K Skitarii.
3. 30K Skitarii are heavily augmented and genetically modified.
4. The Skitarii unit and rank structure is imposed on other Mechanicus forces after the Heresy.
5. Meaning the 30K unit designation for basic Skitarii infantry should also be Hypaspist.
6. The basic weapon for Mechanicus infantry forces in 30K appears to be the Laslock rather than the Lasgun.

Conclusion: It is entirely justifiable and appropriate for a unit of elite(in game terms) techno-barbarian-ish(in fluff terms, see Mechanicum) 30K Mechanicum Skitarii armed with Laslocks to be called "Hypaspists" because that fits with the available information on the basic unit of the 30K Skitarii.

Why are extra dudes in the squad ten points per model cheaper? FW encourage you to take large squads of legion tacticals or terminators by dropping their cost by 5ppm - why are these dudes dropped by 10 each?.

Because, as I mentioned(several times, in fact), I used the Legion Tactical Veteran unit as the starting point, which now that I think about it includes a USR you choose before each game in the base cost which I didn't account for. See! You can provide useful constructive criticism when you take a break from telling me I'm wrong and should just abandon the whole idea

Are you sure that you want to let a 15 man squad have assault3 rad carbines?

As opposed to a ten man unit all with plasma guns? Or BS5 with combi-bolters and AP3-on-a-6 special ammo?

The rad furnace drops the toughness of all models in the same combat unless they have one too, even friendly models in their unit.

Wait, a unit can be locked in combat with itself? Well there you go, assuming that's true, you've managed two useful bits of feedback this time; I can either keep the increased initial points cost you highlight above and give them a flat immunity to Rad, or drop the price of the basic unit, include immunity to Rad in the Radiphract upgrade and increase the cost of that slightly. Leaning towards the latter.

Looks good
Personally i use Skitarii as Imperialis Militia and using the 'Survivors of the dark age' and 'abhuman healots' Provences, to show their cybernetic enhancement
And ill be using Sicarian Ruststalkers as Militia Ogryns with Power weapons (as on the Ogryn page for IM, it says that they dont have to be modelled as ogryns and can be servitors ect)