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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

You would pretty much either have to dismember one, shoot them with a really big gun that hits a weak point, or shoot them a bunch and hope something breaks.

Melee weapons are good at the former, might get through the spongy mass too.

Yes, because its sooooo easy to cut limbs off with melee weapons, and if the orks are sooooooo much tougher than humans, it'll be damned near impossible to do so and then add armor. Lasguns can blow limbs of people, no reason they should be so inefficient vs orks, except for the typical ''humans must suck more than everything else'' thing that 40k has going.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Wulfmar wrote:
Love the fact Orks (at least in the old fluff - not seen much reference in recent stuff) are effectively walking mushrooms with heads that are fruiting bodies - explains why they could soak up so many bullets without suffering much ill-effect

Yeah, most of their body is composed of a fungal mass. Other than that, they don't have many organs.
They have a brain, but its relatively small and behind a thick skull. They have a stomach, and some sort of organ that serves as its liver, kidney and pancreas.
I think they have a heart, but I didn't read anything about it, and logically they should have an intestinal tract, unless they excrete waste from their skin, or have a very efficient digestive system.

Supposedly they can also photosynthesize, and of course they reproduce by constantly spreading spores, especially in their death throes.

I've got a load of mushroom models (from the underworld basing kit and Kromlech) which I need to paint up - not for any serious gaming reason (though maybe a few tactical objectives - could be a rare truffle or something) to stick around the board as a reminder of mushroomy heritage

 Bobthehero wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

You would pretty much either have to dismember one, shoot them with a really big gun that hits a weak point, or shoot them a bunch and hope something breaks.

Melee weapons are good at the former, might get through the spongy mass too.

Yes, because its sooooo easy to cut limbs off with melee weapons, and if the orks are sooooooo much tougher than humans, it'll be damned near impossible to do so and then add armor. Lasguns can blow limbs of people, no reason they should be so inefficient vs orks, except for the typical ''humans must suck more than everything else'' thing that 40k has going.

That's why chainswords have teeth. To chew up tough flesh like that.
Armor would make it harder, but that's what power fields are for.
No idea why there aren't powered chain-swords though. That would be logical

Lasguns can blow the limbs off of people. Orks are not people.
Ork flesh is a bit tougher, and they have a high pain thresh hold. It'll probably sever a limb eventually, but it would need several hits.
If you shoot an ork in the eye it'll still probably blow up its brain though.

Melee weapon is also more effective at dealing damage to an armored opponent up close than a ranged weapon. When we get a guy in power armor, bullets, laser bolts and even bolter rounds won't do much damage to a plate. You need to hit joints or visors to bypass armor.

Even medieval knights in plate armor carried daggers cause daggers are way more effective than literally anything else a single person could carry at killing somebody in armor. Simply cause you can bypass armor with a dagger.

Sometimes, you don't have anything to penetrate armor. You need ways of bypassing it. In this regard, a space marine would do much more with his sword and a bolt pistol rather than with a bolter or even a heavy bolter. Plazma or melta is all good though. But apparently, you can't have enough plazma and melta weapons for everyone. That's a shame.

The flesh part is not the problem, a normal blade can cut that, the muscles and bones are what's going to be a problem.

As for armor, why bother making power fields? Hotshot lasgun punch through armor with little trouble, make more of those. That'll serve you far better than power weapons.

A marine with a sword and pistol won't be able to hit the weak spot more reliably than a dude with a lasgun, the way the rondel dagger were use back then was to wrestle down the enemy and stab him in the joint, it wasnt an all magical thing that would aim at the joints for you, the Marines don't have that kind of weaponry on them, they have a bolt pistol, which is gak vs armor and a chainsword which is equally bad at piercing armor. Give your Marines that bolt that can pierce armor, and you'll do far better at a lot less risks.

Melee weapons aren't really used for cutting up limbs and the like, that really almost never happens. What you're hoping for typically is to *break* a bone or cut a vital artery, hacking something to pieces typically requires it to already be effectively defenseless.

In these respects, bullets work every bit as well, if not better, than melee weapons.

I mean, there are animals today that would be every bit as hard to kill as an Ork, or even harder (Silverback Gorillas, Elephants, etc), and you know what people use to kill them? Not swords, spears, or axes, or even big bore heavy hitting guns, but AK-47's that simply put out lots of little bullets, because quite frankly, each bullet packs an incredible amount of kinetic energy, and they can spit out a ton of them.

Something like a chainsword would, in real life, be an absolutely terrible weapon, excessively prone to jamming, breaking, and getting stuck in things, and the first metal bit it runs into will wreak havoc on the weapon.

Plasma projected accurately, at twice the speed of sound can not be dodged. I dont care how nimble you are, your still getting burned. Armors value against such an attack is debatable. Energy shields may be useful, but its easier to build plasma guns than it is creating hundreds of thousands of man portable energy shields. So the idea that your going to walk up to a man with a plasma gun & hit'em with a lead pipe seems...uhhhh...optimistic.

When it comes to marines I think most of the hth weapons are for breaching obstacles and/or fortifications. SMs also engage in a overly in-your-face style of "shock & awe" warfare where hth weapons fit in.

I think close combat weapons are necessitated by the types of aliens the Imperium has encountered. Orks and nids move to close range and while a bolter, lasgun, or special weapon is more effective at range once something is within arms reach a rifle like weapon isn't going to help you as much. Even though shooting at short ranges is easier try lining up a shot against enemies who would bat away your weapon or knock you to the ground.

It's important to consider that these aren't human threats. Orks and tyranids would shrug off shots from modern large caliber weapons. They would get into close combat. If you were a military planner knowing there was some strong likely hood of a close combat enemy getting into close combat you would provide some sort of close combat weapon even if it isn't that effective.

Just a note on plasma, at best it will singe armor and leave a flash burn. At worst, the shooter might get radiation poisoning. Plasma does not work the way GW depicts it.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Just a note on plasma, at best it will singe armor and leave a flash burn. At worst, the shooter might get radiation poisoning. Plasma does not work the way GW depicts it.

SJ

Very true but ably real world physics to 40k is only going to lead to a headache. based on internal 40k logic, so many factions prefer fighting up close it makes sense that everyone learned to use a sword.

Or drilled/equipped their troops in such a way that those without ranged weapon get blasted before they can reach the gunline.

I don't think there is really enough to go by to determine how plasma weapons in 40k work. Do we even know what elements are projected in a plasma state?

Haha. Actually a gun firing high-velocity alpha radiation in large quantities would hit like a fething truck if it had some method of piercing armour and delivering the particles straight to the flesh.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Haha. Actually a gun firing high-velocity alpha radiation in large quantities would hit like a fething truck if it had some method of piercing armour and delivering the particles straight to the flesh.

You do realize that alpha radiation can't even penetrate human skin, and that magically increasing the velocity of radiation starts to approach the ability to change natural laws, far beyond any other weapon discussed in this thread?

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Wulfmar wrote:
Thinking about Space Marines being in space, their boltguns rely on combustion to propel the slug - which requires oxygen. Do GW expect us to assume there is some explosive propellant / element unknown to us that can combust in the vacuum of space?

Modern ammunition contains its own oxidizer. You can shoot modern ammo in a vacuum or even under water. Boltguns would be little different.

Why marines use guns with ammo? They have a nuclear reactor in the backpack so energy guns would be better.

My two cent.

You can only carry so much ammo. even if you're near a ammo dump it can only store so much ammo. eventually it WILL run out and supply lines are high priority targets. In the case of 40k's setting the numbers involved in *skirmish* can rival casualties of so reality's most devastating wars, thats alot of bullets.

Now as far as "why don't the Imperium just use or develop X weapon" as all of us that are familiar with the imperium know it is empire ruled by blind dogma, brutality, and fear. This can also be said for the Mechanicus as well which holds that "innovation is bad" as one if it most central tenents. For those saying "That doesnt make sense, why wouldn't they use better weapons if they could?!" THATS THE POINT! it blind dogma, it doesnt matter whats logical. The imperium and mechanicus has fervently clung to these beliefs for over 10,000 years in a effort to keep sliding down the slippery slope of galactic superpowerdom. Almost everyne is kept in the dark, even those in power are probably just told what they want to hear. The exceptions we read about are rare oddities not your everyman.

On a side note, if I'm down range and on a patrol you better damn well believe I've got a knife or a hatchet or ANYTHING on me regs be damned.

 Draco wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Wulfmar wrote:
Thinking about Space Marines being in space, their boltguns rely on combustion to propel the slug - which requires oxygen. Do GW expect us to assume there is some explosive propellant / element unknown to us that can combust in the vacuum of space?

Modern ammunition contains its own oxidizer. You can shoot modern ammo in a vacuum or even under water. Boltguns would be little different.

Why marines use guns with ammo? They have a nuclear reactor in the backpack so energy guns would be better.

Because running out of energy for your armor because you shot it all away would be very bad.
Its not a nuclear reactor, its a microfusion reactor, and it can still run out of power, hence the need for reserve cells.
Also, considering how bolters and solid slug weapons tend to have more hitting power, I don't see how energy weapon would be better for their intended role.

Also, in case someone brings up lasguns - they are largely ineffective against inorganic and armored targets, as I do believe that the so called detonation from the beam is caused by flash-boiling any water in the target's tissues, resulting in considerable damage to organic matter.
That makes the most amount of sense to me; thinking of it as being caused by a kinetic force doesn't make sense, as lasers have negligible mass.
It also explains why a weapon that can supposedly cause a small explosive is so ineffective against armor and vehicles; they don't have enough moisture to evaporate.

EDIT : Now that I think about, they do use their generators for heavy energy weapons, such as lascannons and plasma cannons. The fact that such weapons need an additional component that plugs into their power source suggests that such weapons do indeed require an fair bit of power to fire.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Haha. Actually a gun firing high-velocity alpha radiation in large quantities would hit like a fething truck if it had some method of piercing armour and delivering the particles straight to the flesh.

You do realize that alpha radiation can't even penetrate human skin, and that magically increasing the velocity of radiation starts to approach the ability to change natural laws, far beyond any other weapon discussed in this thread?

No. I didn't know that. I assumed alpha radiation could be accelerated, since its speed could very well be 0 or whatever.

I thought only photons were at the universal speed limit.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Haha. Actually a gun firing high-velocity alpha radiation in large quantities would hit like a fething truck if it had some method of piercing armour and delivering the particles straight to the flesh.

You do realize that alpha radiation can't even penetrate human skin, and that magically increasing the velocity of radiation starts to approach the ability to change natural laws, far beyond any other weapon discussed in this thread?

No. I didn't know that. I assumed alpha radiation could be accelerated, since its speed could very well be 0 or whatever.

I thought only photons were at the universal speed limit.

As far as I understand as a layman, in order to speed up alpha radiation you'd have to change the process of nuclear decay generating it, and if you're capable of such molecular manipulation it'd probably make more sense to just weaponize that instead.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Just a note on plasma, at best it will singe armor and leave a flash burn. At worst, the shooter might get radiation poisoning. Plasma does not work the way GW depicts it.

SJ

Except the plasma burns at the heat of a small sun.
Of course, if there were the case, then anyone around the firer should be fried.

Unless the heat was somehow being limited in its magnetic containment field.
Plasma in fiction has always been a bit...weird. There has never been a proper way of explaining how plasma doesn't just dissipate everywhere after leaving the weapon.

Dropzone Commander has the best explanation, imo; the scourge plasma weapons don't fire pure plasma, but a small, specially designed projectile that either contains plasma, or emits a magnetic field that sheaves the projectile in a cloud of plasma.
In other words, they cheat

Plasma is ionized gas. While it does indeed product heat in the thousands of degrees, heat does not transfer efficiently enough to be the mean form of damage. What does transfer is the electrical charge (the gas is ionized), which has more of an effect like being hit by a lightning bolt than a chunk of sun. Plasma weapons like seem in 40k are possible, its just that the effect seem is not. The effect should be closer to haywire than AP2.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Plasma is ionized gas. While it does indeed product heat in the thousands of degrees, heat does not transfer efficiently enough to be the mean form of damage. What does transfer is the electrical charge (the gas is ionized), which has more of an effect like being hit by a lightning bolt than a chunk of sun. Plasma weapons like seem in 40k are possible, its just that the effect seem is not. The effect should be closer to haywire than AP2.

SJ

Interesting. I knew about the ionized aspect, but it had not occurred to me that there would be an electrical as well as a thermal effect.
Makes sense.

Now if it worked like a DzC plasma weapon, then it would be able to transfer the heat efficiently, as the solid projectile hits the target and the plasma burns it.
In the DzC rulebook there's some pretty nasty fluff about human soldiers burning from the inside out, as the plasma bullets would get inside and fill them with superheated ionized gas.
Its pretty brutal. I love it

Plasma isn't a "solid" projectile, its a stream of charged particles. The reason way a solid projectile heats a target is due to energy transfer as the projectile deforms the targets (ie, friction). Charged particles don't have the mass to deform the target, just transfer the charge across the impact surface. Without mass, you need time. The more time you have pumping charged particles into a target, the more surface get ablated. However, if the target has the same electric charge as the plasma or a magnetic field, the plasma will transfer little to no energy at all. If the target is grounded, the plasma will splash and singe the surface.

Now, if the plasma in 40k is equivalent to the raw heat of a star, the shooter would die without proper shielding, the exact same shielding the target would have.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Plasma isn't a "solid" projectile, its a stream of charged particles. The reason way a solid projectile heats a target is due to energy transfer as the projectile deforms the targets (ie, friction). Charged particles don't have the mass to deform the target, just transfer the charge across the impact surface. Without mass, you need time. The more time you have pumping charged particles into a target, the more surface get ablated. However, if the target has the same electric charge as the plasma or a magnetic field, the plasma will transfer little to no energy at all. If the target is grounded, the plasma will splash and singe the surface.

Now, if the plasma in 40k is equivalent to the raw heat of a star, the shooter would die without proper shielding, the exact same shielding the target would have.

SJ

I know its not a solid projectile.
Read my description of plasma weapons in Dropzone

I read your description, and pointed out how solid shot differs from being hit by charged particles. The DzC weapon you described appears to function just like a modern day white phosphorous tracer round, or a tungsten penetrator round.

SJ

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Haha. Actually a gun firing high-velocity alpha radiation in large quantities would hit like a fething truck if it had some method of piercing armour and delivering the particles straight to the flesh.

You do realize that alpha radiation can't even penetrate human skin, and that magically increasing the velocity of radiation starts to approach the ability to change natural laws, far beyond any other weapon discussed in this thread?

No. I didn't know that. I assumed alpha radiation could be accelerated, since its speed could very well be 0 or whatever.

I thought only photons were at the universal speed limit.

As far as I understand as a layman, in order to speed up alpha radiation you'd have to change the process of nuclear decay generating it, and if you're capable of such molecular manipulation it'd probably make more sense to just weaponize that instead.

Given that Alpha radiation actually has mass(being just a hydrogen atom) it could theoretically be accelerated. Of course its like you said, if you could do that it would probably mean you'd have better uses for that tech.

Grey Templar wrote:

Given that Alpha radiation actually has mass(being just a hydrogen atom) it could theoretically be accelerated. Of course its like you said, if you could do that it would probably mean you'd have better uses for that tech.

Helium nucleus*

 Wulfmar wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

Given that Alpha radiation actually has mass(being just a hydrogen atom) it could theoretically be accelerated. Of course its like you said, if you could do that it would probably mean you'd have better uses for that tech.

Helium nucleus*

Well I'll be. I could have sworn Alpha radiation was a single proton.

Either way, it has mass and could theoretically be accelerated.

Alpha is a helium nucelus, beta is an electron, gamma is a high energy photon.

It was proved Long, long ago in a Galaxy far, far away that teddybears with spears and monks with powerswords are easily a match for laser gun wielding heavily armoured mass troop formations.

So nothings changed really then!