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Vehicles are fragile in the current vehicle HitPoint (HP) system against ranged weapons.

Low Strength anti-infantry weapons do not hurt most vehicles, so are not a problem.

High strength, low AP, low rate of fire (RoF) anti-vehicle weapons are effective against vehicles, but not optimum.

Mid strength (6-7) high RoF anti-infantry weapons (Eldar scatter lasers) are being abused to strip HP off of vehicles. This reduces the effectiveness of vehicles in general.

I propose a new vehicle "invo" save (VIS) based on ranged weapon RoF and AP. It is NOT fixed but is determined by the stats of the WEAPON. The equation is:
Save (min 2) = 10 - RoF - AP

NOTE: Vehicles still get to choose the best save available to them: Cover, Invo (Holo fields), VIS.

For instance:
Tau
Pulse Rifle or Carbine: S=5, RoF=2, AP=5, VIS=3, rhinos are more secure
Burst cannon: S=5, RoF=4, AP=5, VIS=1 (2 min), rhinos are more secure
Rail Gun: S=10, RoF=1, AP=1, VIS=8 (no save), well it IS an anti-vehicle weapon.

Space Wolves
Assault Cannon: S=6, RoF=4, AP=4, VIS=2
Krak missile: S=8, RoF=1, AP=3, VIS=6, OK a small decrease in effectiveness, any cover save is better
Demolisher: S=10, RoF=1, AP=1, VIS=8 (no save)

Eldar
Death spinner: S=6, RoF=2, AP=-(7), VIS=1(2 min), significant decrease
Bright lance: S=8, Rof=1, AP=2, VIS=7 (no save), well it IS an anti-vehicle weapon.
Flakk missile: S=7, Rof=1, AP=4, VIS=5, OK a small decrease in effectiveness
Scatter lasers: S=6, RoF=4, AP=6, VIS=0(2 min), significant decrease

Benefits:
All vehicles benefit from walkers to transports to tanks
Pretty easy to calculate
Most effective for diminishing effect of HP removal from anti-infantry weapons

Disadvantages:
Additional saving roll (if no current cover or invo, no change if need those rolls)
Not as perfect for all weapons as would be liked.

Comments and/or Suggestions?

Give vehicles an armour save instead.

AV 10, 4+

AV 11-12, 3+

AV 13-14, 2+

It more or less works, just like MC do

Give them a save based on how penetrated they get. So when you deal damage, keep track of how over the opponent's Armor Value the shot 'wounded' the vehicle. Glance Hit to 2 over is a 4+ Save, 2-3 over is a 5+, 4-5 is a 6+ and anything over that gets no save whatsoever. Take these saves or Cover saves, same as Infantry.

But, that's just what I came up with on the fly. Next to no thought put into it but also not complicated. Adding in more maths to this game in the form of formulas seems... Slow. Like it will just slow the game down without being too much of an upside. And of course there will be human error. Some people don't have all ten fingers to count from.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Give vehicles an armour save instead.

AV 10, 4+

AV 11-12, 3+

AV 13-14, 2+

It more or less works, just like MC do

I actually think this is closer to what should be done. I think vehicles should just be made into monstrous creatures with the vehicle subtype letting the weapons that hurt them now continue to do so and prevent certain things that don't hurt them from doing so. A walker would still keep the walker subtype as well. Depending on the vehicle they would be toughness 6, 7, 8, maybe 9. And would get the saves you mentioned. I'd do away with that stupid chart and penetrating hits plus extra hp stripping. While the lack of weapon destroyed and imobilized would take a bit away from the game I think overall it would be an improvement. I would also do away with crummy rules like the whole toe in cover bs. That is one case of the vehicles handling things better. Sorry if this post is a little incoherent it is late and I have had quite a lot to drink.

How do you get gw to listen? n make this errata?

You don't, really.

The nice part about an overall armour save is that you can do things like take a base value, build up, and then add an invul if you get passed 2+. You can also modify for Light, Skimmer, Flyer, and Heavy Types. For example, -1 per Light, Skimmer, Fast, and Flyer. +1 per Heavy, Extra Armour-like ability [?]. So if you were house ruling, you could work out a save for each vehicle pretty easily.

The trick would be to decide between highest AV, or average AV [rounding to the closest whole number]. For the following, I'm going to work with the rounded average, counting the sides twice. If you start with a 5+ base for AV 10...

Dark Eldar Raider = No Save [avg 10 = 5+, but -3 for Light, Fast, Skimmer]

Space Marine Rhino with Extra Armour = 3+ [avg 11 = 4+, +1 with Extra Armour]

Eldar Wave Serpent = 5+ [avg 12 = 3+, -2 for Fast, Skimmer]

Storm Raven With Extra Armour = 4+ [avg 12 = 3+, -2 for "Fast", Flyer, +1 with Extra Armour]

Leman Russ Demolisher with Extra Armour = 2+ / 5++ [avg 13 = 2+, +2 for Heavy, Extra armour = 0+, treat as 2+ / 5++]

Land Raider with Extra Armour = 2+ / 5++ [avg 14 = 1+, +1 for Extra Armour = 0+, treat as 2+ / 5++]


In general, this allows weapons designed to wreck specific vehicles to bypass those saves. An Autocannon, for example, bypasses most Skimmer's / Flyer's armour saves, but starts to fall apart with light tanks, if they take extra armour. It also, generally, means that an improved save can be taken if you Jink with a skimmer, or that their current gear is still beneficial, such as Holofield / Tau Countermeasures.

This also makes the toughest vehicles that I can think of have armour equivalent to Terminator Armour, which sounds about right. This still allows high ROF weapons to take out lighter "Scout-type" vehicles pretty easily, but definitely makes Rhinos and the like a little tougher to crack for weapons with 3+ shots... for the most part.

[nvm]

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Give them a save based on how penetrated they get. So when you deal damage, keep track of how over the opponent's Armor Value the shot 'wounded' the vehicle. Glance Hit to 2 over is a 4+ Save, 2-3 over is a 5+, 4-5 is a 6+ and anything over that gets no save whatsoever. Take these saves or Cover saves, same as Infantry.

But, that's just what I came up with on the fly. Next to no thought put into it but also not complicated. Adding in more maths to this game in the form of formulas seems... Slow. Like it will just slow the game down without being too much of an upside. And of course there will be human error. Some people don't have all ten fingers to count from.

Actually, I think this idea is great. It isn't over the top for a fix, and relatively simple.

Only problem is that it creates a variable save, and 40k frowns on that, as a mechanic. Not that it's a bad idea, but if it's an armour save, then a given weapon may or may not bypass the armour until after you roll to pen. That's just kind of random for the sake of random.

I had an idea about give vehicles a save too

Copied from another thread

Give vehicles a special type of save, called a vehicle plating save.

It would be dependent on facing

The formula to determine the save would be something like this:

16-x, where x is the facing's AV

In addition, apply this modifiers where applicable. 2+ is the best possible save.
If the vehicle's save exceed's 2+, then it gains a resiliant save. This works like FNP, in that it can be taken after a failed plating save, but it only works on a 5+.
This save can only be negated by weapons with the melta rule and haywire.

+ 1 is the vehicle is a tank (due to heavier construction / additional armor)
- 1 if the vehicle is a skimmer (NOT a heavy skimmer.it is assumed they can handle the weight of armor plating. It is assumed standard skimmers have to be a bit light to work)
-1 if the vehicle is a flyer (same reasoning as the skimmers)
+1 if the vehicle is a walker (due to heavier construction / additional armor)

Modifiers may cancel each other out, of course.

Haywire weapons always ignore vehicle plating saves, as they do not work by piercing armor.

If the vehicle's AV value has been modified due to a special rule, then use the modified value.

This save cannot be ignored by AP, except on a penetrating hit. Glancing hits can always be saved against.

Hopefully, S6-S7 spam would no longer be as effective with this rule.

Without too much formulae, to avoid mid-strenght high-AP and ROF weapon to become the best anti-tank in the game (which is horrible by a realistic point of view)
It should work a rule like this:

Before removing any hp as a consequence of a glancing hit or a Stunned/shaken result, roll a dice. If the result is lower than the shot's AP value, no hp are removed.

in this way anti infantry weapons would be far less effective as anti tank.