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So, I was just curious what peoples opinions on the Cadian Battle Group detachment from the Mont'ka book are? I havent been able to find much discussion or reviews of it at all, Feels kind of like most people missed that it's out.. People just seem to talk about the Tau stuff, Not the Guard stuff.. So, what is your opinions on the Cadian Battle Group and it's formations?

Putting it rather bluntly, there is not too much discussion on it because it is very points heavy and unwieldy to field.

It's a great idea, bu t for the points expenditure? You're going to be boned from the get-go unless the other person handicaps themselves.

Ya, as he previously said, in order to use the battle group you need to spend far too many points on core, and one of those choices is basically unusable (the emperor's shield one). This is why this battlegroup doesn't see much use, even with some of the awesome auxiliary choices.

I have to agree with everyone else's opinion. Spending 1005 points on core without any vox casters or other staple upgrades is insane. Even if it gives you access to useful axillary choices it still won't see play in any games sub 2500.

You can make it work if you build around the Armoured Company core choice. BS4 Russes are not too shabby. Take a regular Infantry Platoon (not the Emperor's Shield one) to provide some bubble wrapping, and then you can fill out your remaining points with the Artillery Company. Use the Swagger Stick relic on the Artillery Formation's Company Commander so you only fail orders on double 6's - then issue Ignore Cover to your Basilisks/Manticores/Hydra's.

The psyker formation is hugely underestimated. Sure it is costly and not as sturdy as librarians on bikes ( or even marines), but it sure can put out a lot of high lv powers.

 GoonBandito wrote:
You can make it work if you build around the Armoured Company core choice. BS4 Russes are not too shabby. Take a regular Infantry Platoon (not the Emperor's Shield one) to provide some bubble wrapping, and then you can fill out your remaining points with the Artillery Company. Use the Swagger Stick relic on the Artillery Formation's Company Commander so you only fail orders on double 6's - then issue Ignore Cover to your Basilisks/Manticores/Hydra's.

If it is the big decuron formation then you have to take the Emperors Shield.

 oldzoggy wrote:
The psyker formation is hugely underestimated.

The formations are fine. Its the Cadian Battle Group (the Guard Decurian) that we are talking about

the "decurian" itself noting wrong with it. It just doesn't give you a ton of free models or unit upgrades. This is a good thing if you ask me.

 oldzoggy wrote:
the "decurian" itself noting wrong with it. It just doesn't give you a ton of free models or unit upgrades. This is a good thing if you ask me.

I would normally agree but the Guard desperately need something extra and a decurion that gave free tanks would be something.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 GoonBandito wrote:
You can make it work if you build around the Armoured Company core choice. BS4 Russes are not too shabby. Take a regular Infantry Platoon (not the Emperor's Shield one) to provide some bubble wrapping, and then you can fill out your remaining points with the Artillery Company. Use the Swagger Stick relic on the Artillery Formation's Company Commander so you only fail orders on double 6's - then issue Ignore Cover to your Basilisks/Manticores/Hydra's.

If it is the big decuron formation then you have to take the Emperors Shield.

No you don't. The Emperor's Shield Infantry Company and Emperor's Fist Armoured Company are both Core choices, which are 0-3 per Command choice. The only thing you actually have to take in fact is the Battle Group Command.

So heres a question. Has anyone tried the all CCS battle group yet? I'm giving it a whirl tomorrow But I'm curious to see if anyone else has seriously tried it yet. Orders.. Orders everywhere..

 Ir0njack wrote:
So heres a question. Has anyone tried the all CCS battle group yet? I'm giving it a whirl tomorrow But I'm curious to see if anyone else has seriously tried it yet. Orders.. Orders everywhere..

Yeah...

So make sure you read the rules carefully for the Cadian Battlegroup. Those "Orders everywhere" aren't as great as people seem to be thinking.

You're still issuing Orders at 12" and at your normal Leadership value if your target is not part of the Cadian Battlegroup.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 oldzoggy wrote:
the "decurian" itself noting wrong with it. It just doesn't give you a ton of free models or unit upgrades. This is a good thing if you ask me.

Considering you need to take around 1100 points of Infantry Squads, Sentinels, Platoon Command Squads, and a Company Command Squad in order to field the Emperor's Shield Infantry Company--along with a Battle Group Command choice?

It most definitely should give you free unit upgrades.

Oh, and let's not forget that is the bare minimum for the ESIC by itself. The Infantry Platoon is a normal Infantry Platoon and can add in Special Weapon Squads, Conscript Squads, and Heavy Weapon Squads.

You're looking at 175 Guardsmen, minimum, for a Cadian Battlegroup which is aiming for Infantry rather than tanks.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ir0njack wrote:
So heres a question. Has anyone tried the all CCS battle group yet? I'm giving it a whirl tomorrow But I'm curious to see if anyone else has seriously tried it yet. Orders.. Orders everywhere..

Yeah...

So make sure you read the rules carefully for the Cadian Battlegroup. Those "Orders everywhere" aren't as great as people seem to be thinking.

You're still issuing Orders at 12" and at your normal Leadership value if your target is not part of the Cadian Battlegroup.

Thats the thing though, The plan was to take solely CCSs. They're able to be built pretty much however I want them to be and benefit from vet BS4. Sure the only option for armor in such a list is a chimer and taurox but if you want armor you can always tack on a emperors fist battle group. For example one of the ways I built the CCS was with camoline, a MoO, and a auto cannon team, yeas the MoO is inaccurate as all getout but with order like ignore cover, whatever he does hit is gonna hurt.

I like the entire thing from a fluff PoV. Rules wise i think the whole thing is too cumbersome and strict, CCS Plus Tank core being the only real Option and still leaving too little room for other things.

BUT: the formations are really nice. The vendettas are nice,the psycana looks great and Cover ignoring artillery Tanks are awesome. And the formations match well with the ABG list, too.

The only two which appeal to me are the Super Heavy one and the Tank one. IG psykers are overpriced and too weak to be of any real use, the Emperors Shield formation is a joke and the Cadian Battlegroup requires me to spend over half my points, in an average 2K, game on Infantry. And that is before upgrades.

Remember however it really is only point heavy and unwieldy if you decide to run it out of the "Hammer of the Emperor" Detachment, there is nothing saying you cant run a C.A.D and add individual Formations to it. This helps cut out alot of the unecessary tax and baggage.

 master of ordinance wrote:
and the Cadian Battlegroup requires me to spend over half my points, in an average 2K, game on Infantry. And that is before upgrades.

As I told you above, the Cadian Battlegroup does not require an Emperor's Shield Infantry Platoon. You can use the Armoured Company as the core. The Cadian Battlegroup is actually fairly decent if you want to run a tank heavy army.

 GoonBandito wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
and the Cadian Battlegroup requires me to spend over half my points, in an average 2K, game on Infantry. And that is before upgrades.

As I told you above, the Cadian Battlegroup does not require an Emperor's Shield Infantry Platoon. You can use the Armoured Company as the core. The Cadian Battlegroup is actually fairly decent if you want to run a tank heavy army.

Eh...it's not as good as the armored battlegroup detachment from imperial armor 1.

I'd suggest using an armored company detachment, and sprinkling in some formations from the Cadian battlegroup.

The artillery formation and the psychic formation really stand head and shoulders above the rest. Hopefully January will see a new AM codex with heavy points reductions.

I would rather get big buffs and a few well placed reductions.

 GoonBandito wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
and the Cadian Battlegroup requires me to spend over half my points, in an average 2K, game on Infantry. And that is before upgrades.

As I told you above, the Cadian Battlegroup does not require an Emperor's Shield Infantry Platoon. You can use the Armoured Company as the core. The Cadian Battlegroup is actually fairly decent if you want to run a tank heavy army.

The Cadian Battlegroup does nothing for the Armoured Company formation or tank heavy lists. All 3 of the command benefits are useless with tanks as they don't give or get order or shoot lasguns so is completely useless for Armored Company and does very little for the Artillery company. The only use is you can tack on an aditional Tank Commander Squadron but you don't need it. You're better off running the formations by them selves.

eleven11 wrote:


Eh...it's not as good as the armored battlegroup detachment from imperial armor 1.

I'd suggest using an armored company detachment, and sprinkling in some formations from the Cadian battlegroup.

What do you see as the advantages of the ABG versus the Armoured Fist? The Cadian one as lots of BS4, and improved survivability from the Enginseer.

Cheers,

The big problem with the IA1 detachment is that it still uses all the 2009 codex costs, and Russ tanks are way more expensive.

On the other hand, your HQ tanks aren't hamfisted into Squadrons, they can take some pretty awesome upgrades, and you can still use old Hydras and old Vendettas, and can just use a typical CAD to fill out an entire army with Russ tanks if you really want.

Eisenfresser wrote:

eleven11 wrote:


Eh...it's not as good as the armored battlegroup detachment from imperial armor 1.

I'd suggest using an armored company detachment, and sprinkling in some formations from the Cadian battlegroup.

What do you see as the advantages of the ABG versus the Armoured Fist? The Cadian one as lots of BS4, and improved survivability from the Enginseer.

Cheers,

Twin linked beast Hunter bs4 vanquishers?

The point probably is that you can just Grab the new Formations on their own ( not the whole detachment), and add both the artillery and psycana formations as well as a CAD or AD of the IA1 ABG and not loose anything useful from leaving out the cadian detachment. You cant bring 2 pask commanders anyway and who exactly would benefit from the CCS command choice in that list? You'd give the cane to the artillery ccs anyway (to ignore the artilleries low ld). So you can save the command choice point cost and invest in something useful instead.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 GoonBandito wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
and the Cadian Battlegroup requires me to spend over half my points, in an average 2K, game on Infantry. And that is before upgrades.

As I told you above, the Cadian Battlegroup does not require an Emperor's Shield Infantry Platoon. You can use the Armoured Company as the core. The Cadian Battlegroup is actually fairly decent if you want to run a tank heavy army.

The Cadian Battlegroup does nothing for the Armoured Company formation or tank heavy lists. All 3 of the command benefits are useless with tanks as they don't give or get order or shoot lasguns so is completely useless for Armored Company and does very little for the Artillery company. The only use is you can tack on an aditional Tank Commander Squadron but you don't need it. You're better off running the formations by them selves.

It lets you have a cheaper troop tax though, since you can take a single Infantry Platoon (which do benefit from the CBG command benefits). Consider a Battle Group Command (CCS with a few upgrades), Armoured Company (Vanquishers/Exterminators as the Tank Commander unit, then 3 Russes), an Infantry Platoon (with some autocannons/vox etc or just naked as bubble wrapping) and an Artillery Company (Hydras/Wyverns/Manticore). The Battlegroup Command CCS can issue orders to the Infantry Platoon, the Artillery Company Commander issues Ignores Cover to the Hydras/Manticore and the Russes can stay near the Tank Commander for BS4 if they want.

Yes you could just take the Armoured and Artillery formations by themselves, but then you have no troops to protect them. Unless you desperately want Objective Secured on your troops (which I don't think is really worth it on slow, easy to kill units anyway) then taking a CAD just so you can bring bodies gives you very little.

Like I said, you can make a CBG work if you use tanks as the core of the army. Is it a top-tier 'win all the comps!!1!' list? No, but then again nothing else Guard can do is either. ABG from IA1 is nice, but its basically Beast Hunter Shells that are the sole reason its any good. You're stuck with the old Russ prices (LRBT and Demolisher get better because of Lumbering Behemoth, all the other variants get worse since they're more expensive - depends how much use you made of LRBT and Demolishers I guess).

I've theorized that you could do something I've dubbed the "Forward Observer List." The original plan was to make this unbound, but now all you have to do is take a lot of Company Command Squads.

The plan:

Take 12 Company Command Squads. Give each of them full camo gear and a Master of Ordnance. Depending on your opponent kit them out with lascannons, autocannons, plasma, whatever.

Camp them all in cover, spread out across your side of the table. Hope for first turn. Drop 12 pieplates on your unlucky opponent, with the possibility for Ignores Cover and Tank Hunter/Monster Hunter.

Viable? No. Fun? Absolutely.

Guardion doesn't provide enough bonuses to compensate for the loss of obsec and flexibility.

You're better off with CAD + Formations. Or CAD + a couple CCS decurions + Allies for pods + Formations.

Decurions provide great ccs squads with almost guaranteed orders to themselves. So, suicide drops are going to be quite effective. And you won't have to waste points on unwieldy core choices. However, if you're allready running a lot of russes for some reason, core russ formation is good. In fact, it makes them much better. However, even with such buffs, russes are not too great in the world where you can meet 2+ rerollable cover saves for units that simply move across the board turn 1, alpha strike you and than finish off in melee. Still need at least some bauble wrap - preferably with axes and a priest. Could also ally in slaanesh daemons with a masque to help you out against deathstars like orkses do. At least here, it's becoming quite a popular ally detachment. I mean masque + daemonettes with instrument.