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Naw wrote:
Why don't you tell me why I can't move the doors during my turn the way I want? Saying that I need a rule that says I can move the doors is not enough. However, if you said I would be TFG, that I will accept.

'
You can't move the doors because there is no rule stating you can.

40K is a permissive ruleset.

you can not do anything unless given explicit permission to do so.

Therefore if you have a rule saying you can move the models doors after the game starts then you may do it.

Please cite the rule allowing you to Open/Close the doors on a model.

 DeathReaper wrote:
No we can not stop with the ""page and 'graph" wankery" as you call it. It is not "wankery" it is trying to validate a rule.

Because he made an assertation and I wanted to know where he got that rule from.

If he can not find the rule, he needs to mark the post How He Would Play It.

It's not validation of a rule and it is wankery when you know it's clearly his opinion of how he thinks it sound be played and that there is no rule.

A simple, "Yes, but that's not what the rules say" would suffice instead of appealing selectively to the tenets (you're arguing a clear HHWPI with RAW, against the tenets) to shut someone else down and put yourself up as the more correct poster.

I don't see you marking your posts explicitly as RAW. Common sense tells me that's your argument though just as much as it tells me his is an opinion not based on RAW.

In short, it would be nice if people could disagree with each other without coming across as condescending gakkers.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
No we can not stop with the ""page and 'graph" wankery" as you call it. It is not "wankery" it is trying to validate a rule.

Because he made an assertation and I wanted to know where he got that rule from.

If he can not find the rule, he needs to mark the post How He Would Play It.

It's not validation of a rule and it is wankery when you know it's clearly his opinion of how he thinks it sound be played and that there is no rule.

Except I didn't know it was his opinion, nothing in his post even hinted at it being how he would play it.

die toten hosen said "I am fairly certain the doors to not matter for drawing line of sight or for determining range. Glue them shut IMO it makes an already fragile model more stable."

"I am fairly certain the doors to not matter for drawing line of sight or for determining range." sounds like he was stating RAW to me. nothing about this hints at it being a house rule

and when he said IMO he was talking about gluing the doors shut. which is not at all what I replied to.

A simple, "Yes, but that's not what the rules say" would suffice instead of appealing selectively to the tenets (you're arguing a clear HHWPI with RAW, against the tenets) to shut someone else down and put yourself up as the more correct poster.

Again, not a clear HIWPI post.

I don't see you marking your posts explicitly as RAW. Common sense tells me that's your argument though just as much as it tells me his is an opinion not based on RAW.

Because RAW is the default. This is a rules forum after all and not a house rules forum.

In short, it would be nice if people could disagree with each other without coming across as condescending gakkers.

I was not a condescending gakker since nothing in his post even hinted at being anything but RAW.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Naw wrote:
Why don't you tell me why I can't move the doors during my turn the way I want? Saying that I need a rule that says I can move the doors is not enough. However, if you said I would be TFG, that I will accept.

'
You can't move the doors because there is no rule stating you can.

40K is a permissive ruleset.

Yes, this is the 2nd most favorite response to everything. How about I forge a narrative instead? My army's tactics has been to use the doors as cover while still allowing the pod to shoot at a target elsewhere. There, I've done it, there's the permission straight from the rulebook.

I quickly looked through the rules and they do not mention doors at all. So what happens when I land the drop pod, do I leave the doors closed or do I open them? But oops, I don't have permission to do so? How about I leave enemy facing doors closed and a couple of others open, for shooting?

From SM codex: The speed of their descent is so great that the foe barely realise they are under attack before the Drop Pods crash down like a meteor storm. Hatches blow open, pneumatic locking bolts releasing with loud bangs moments before the Pods’ armoured ramps come down, their passengers storming out into battle.

Not my pod, as I'm not allowed by the rules to do anything with any doors, hatches and whatnot.

you can not do anything unless given explicit permission to do so.

Therefore if you have a rule saying you can move the models doors after the game starts then you may do it.

Please cite the rule allowing you to Open/Close the doors on a model.

Pg. 10 - The Most Important Rule. Shall we roll off?
Pg. 14 - The Spirit of the Game. So I add my own creativity in the form of tactics employed by my guys. Do you disagree?

Now do you agree that I could model the drop pod with all but one door closed? The instructions don't tell me to glue the doors, I'm instructed not to use glue there. But it doesn't matter, as I don't have permission to open them.

Naw wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Naw wrote:
Why don't you tell me why I can't move the doors during my turn the way I want? Saying that I need a rule that says I can move the doors is not enough. However, if you said I would be TFG, that I will accept.

'
You can't move the doors because there is no rule stating you can.

40K is a permissive ruleset.

Yes, this is the 2nd most favorite response to everything. How about I forge a narrative instead?

forge a narrative is not a rule.

Pg. 10 - The Most Important Rule. Shall we roll off?

No as this has no bearing on this discussion.

Pg. 14 - The Spirit of the Game. So I add my own creativity in the form of tactics employed by my guys. Do you disagree?

This literally states you have to follow the rules.

So you completely ignored what I wrote. Let me ask again:

By the rules as written how do I position the doors of my landed drop pod?

 DeathReaper wrote:
forge a narrative is not a rule.

Interesting that it shows up so often in the rulebook then.

Still, it is mostly about setting up the story and mission and reminding the players that it is just a game.

Naw wrote:
So you completely ignored what I wrote. Let me ask again:

By the rules as written how do I position the doors of my landed drop pod?

There is no rule that covers it specifically.

We know we are allowed to use Citadel models.

You just deploy the model and then you are not given permission to change the way the doors are once the Model has been deployed. so however you deploy the model is how it should stay.

So, what exactly is the claim about opening the doors mid-game? Are people really trying to suggest that you can deep strike your drop pod with the doors closed to take advantage of the smaller footprint, then open whichever doors you want to use to gain extra disembarkation distance from the hull and/or clear LOS through the pod? Like, you can drop a pod with a melta squad inside, open the one door closest to your target, disembark within 6" of the tip of the door, and leave the rest of the doors shut to maximize LOS blocking to the rest of your army?

 insaniak wrote:

Naw wrote:
How do you fire its weapon with the doors closed?

You can't.

That doesn't mean that the doors have to be open though. Just means that it's a bad idea to leave them closed if you want to be able to fire the weapon.

{citation needed}

Models can draw LOS through models in their own unit, so the gun inside the drop pod can draw LOS through the hull of the pod if necessary.

Naw wrote:


Not my pod, as I'm not allowed by the rules to do anything with any doors, hatches and whatnot.

You're conflating building the model with using the model in the game.

Whether you build your pod with doors open or closed has nothing to do with whether or not you're allowed to change their position during the game.

@Peregrine: No, that's not it. Movement is from the hull, same for the hullprint. The rules don't really recognize doors.

@others: Okay, now that we have established that in-game there are no rules for door usage, in BRB or SM codex, there is nothing that forces me to open them. As Peregrine said, I can fire through my own unit.

Why do I open my own pod doors then? Because it looks cool and that is how it is supposed to work. Nevertheless, they can effectively be used for BLOS.

 Peregrine wrote:


Models can draw LOS through models in their own unit, so the gun inside the drop pod can draw LOS through the hull of the pod if necessary.

You're going to have a hard time establishing the LOS when you can't actually see the gun.

Regardless, the rule allowing LOS through your own unit is not generally interpretated as allowing models to shoot through themselves, from my experience. Particularly where vehicles are involved, due to the requirement to physically point the weapon at your target.

You can put the doors into my any configuration you want before the model goes onto the table (it's correctly assembled) but once it's placed you can't change that configuration because there is no permission to do so and no rules covering when and how often.

So, yes you can place a pod with some doors open and some doors closed. Some people will get butt hurt over this but nothing says that the doors must be open.

What you can't do is close them to block line of sight then open them when you want to shoot then close them again to block, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Naw wrote:
Saying that I need a rule that says I can move the doors is not enough.

Yes, it is. You can't do something if the rules don't say you can do it.

Scott-S6 wrote:

Naw wrote:
Saying that I need a rule that says I can move the doors is not enough.

Yes, it is. You can't do something if the rules don't say you can do it.

Aha, you are looking at this as strict restriction when I pasted pages for two rules that let me use common sense. I agree that in YMDC those two rules should be ignored, but in a real gaming situation not.

So in friendly games I would open the doors if the model's placement allows it, in tournament games I probably wouldn't do so. But I don't play in tournaments.

Edit: Quotes. This also has nothing to do with the OP's question anymore.

Naw wrote:
@Peregrine: No, that's not it. Movement is from the hull, same for the hullprint. The rules don't really recognize doors.

{citation needed}

The only thing the rules don't consider part of the "hull" of a vehicle is small decorative bits (flags, crew poking their heads out the hatches, etc). The doors on a drop pod are pretty clearly not minor decorative elements.

 insaniak wrote:
You're going to have a hard time establishing the LOS when you can't actually see the gun.

So? How is this any different from a LRBT parked directly behind another LRBT in the same squadron shooting its hull gun through the tank in front of it? You won't be able to see the gun clearly when drawing LOS, but it indisputably can draw LOS through the other tank. Similarly, how do you measure range between two units on opposite sides of a solid block of terrain that prevents you from placing a tape measure directly between them? The rules occasionally (or commonly, depending on your experience) create situations where it is difficult or impossible to check range/LOS/etc with a desired level of precision. But that doesn't mean you get to say "I can't place my tape measure/shine my laser pointer/etc therefore you're out of range/out of LOS/etc". You just have to make your best guess about range/LOS and play it from there.

Regardless, the rule allowing LOS through your own unit is not generally interpretated as allowing models to shoot through themselves, from my experience. Particularly where vehicles are involved, due to the requirement to physically point the weapon at your target.

No such rule exists, thankfully, or anyone who glues their vehicle weapons in place would be unable to draw LOS with them. In fact, the rules explicitly don't require you to physically point the weapon at your target because they grant hull-mounted weapons a 45* arc which many hull guns are incapable of rotating through. For example, the demolisher cannon on a Vindicator can not rotate horizontally at all to point at a target, yet still has its 45* arc.

 Peregrine wrote:

Regardless, the rule allowing LOS through your own unit is not generally interpretated as allowing models to shoot through themselves, from my experience. Particularly where vehicles are involved, due to the requirement to physically point the weapon at your target.

No such rule exists, thankfully, or anyone who glues their vehicle weapons in place would be unable to draw LOS with them...

Vehicle Weapons And Line Of Sight wrote:
When firing a vehicle’s weapons, point them at the target and then trace line of sight from each weapons’ mounting and along its barrel to see if the shot is blocked by intervening terrain or models.

And they go on to explain what to do if you have glued the weapon in place.

 Peregrine wrote:

Naw wrote:
@Peregrine: No, that's not it. Movement is from the hull, same for the hullprint. The rules don't really recognize doors.

{citation needed}

The only thing the rules don't consider part of the "hull" of a vehicle is small decorative bits (flags, crew poking their heads out the hatches, etc). The doors on a drop pod are pretty clearly not minor decorative elements.

I believe it is up to you to convince me that doors are part of the hull when they are opened, considering that the rules don't mention them at all.

Peregrine wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
You're going to have a hard time establishing the LOS when you can't actually see the gun.

So? How is this any different from a LRBT parked directly behind another LRBT in the same squadron shooting its hull gun through the tank in front of it? You won't be able to see the gun clearly when drawing LOS, but it indisputably can draw LOS through the other tank. Similarly, how do you measure range between two units on opposite sides of a solid block of terrain that prevents you from placing a tape measure directly between them? The rules occasionally (or commonly, depending on your experience) create situations where it is difficult or impossible to check range/LOS/etc with a desired level of precision. But that doesn't mean you get to say "I can't place my tape measure/shine my laser pointer/etc therefore you're out of range/out of LOS/etc". You just have to make your best guess about range/LOS and play it from there.

Regardless, the rule allowing LOS through your own unit is not generally interpretated as allowing models to shoot through themselves, from my experience. Particularly where vehicles are involved, due to the requirement to physically point the weapon at your target.

No such rule exists, thankfully, or anyone who glues their vehicle weapons in place would be unable to draw LOS with them. In fact, the rules explicitly don't require you to physically point the weapon at your target because they grant hull-mounted weapons a 45* arc which many hull guns are incapable of rotating through. For example, the demolisher cannon on a Vindicator can not rotate horizontally at all to point at a target, yet still has its 45* arc.

Agreed on this part. There's a specific rule allowing to do this.

 Peregrine wrote:

Naw wrote:
@Peregrine: No, that's not it. Movement is from the hull, same for the hullprint. The rules don't really recognize doors.

{citation needed}

The only thing the rules don't consider part of the "hull" of a vehicle is small decorative bits (flags, crew poking their heads out the hatches, etc). The doors on a drop pod are pretty clearly not minor decorative elements.

How about we lookar the pertinent rules, like Access Points and Open-Topped rules, and Vehicles & Measuring Distances? Really easy to find, actually.

Naw wrote:
Aha, you are looking at this as strict restriction when I pasted pages for two rules that let me use common sense.

Firstly, common sense is extremely subjective. I would say that it's common sense that drop pod doors do not open and close during the game - why would the very simple machine spirit of a drop pod have that much situational awareness?

Secondly, what does TMIR have to do with this? TMIR is for when you and your opponent cannot agree on the application of a rule - it's not for forcing an opponent to accept your home-brew rules (which is what we're talking about here) half of the time.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

Naw wrote:
Aha, you are looking at this as strict restriction when I pasted pages for two rules that let me use common sense.

Firstly, common sense is extremely subjective. I would say that it's common sense that drop pod doors do not open and close during the game - why would the very simple machine spirit of a drop pod have that much situational awareness?

Go ahead and copy just part of what I write, I don't mind.

Secondly, what does TMIR have to do with this? TMIR is for when you and your opponent cannot agree on the application of a rule - it's not for forcing an opponent to accept your home-brew rules (which is what we're talking about here) half of the time.

It was added there to show that we can actually work things out in-game when rules don't cover something / there's a disagreement with the rules. Forcing goes both ways. Now if you went back and read my message further than what you copied here, it will make more sense.

I already agreed that there's no rule letting me open the doors midgame, but there's nothing that stops me from doing that when the drop pod lands. It was also shown that it actually doesn't matter for the shooting part, even if all the doors were closed. I could leave all doors closed and still shoot with the pod's weapon (pg 72-73 & 38), it would seem.

Now an additional question, if I opened a pod door would I be allowed to move over/across them? I'm not permitted to embark and as far as I remember, I can move through my own models.

Would an enemy be able to do the same? I think not, they'd have to go around a long way.

Naw wrote:
Now an additional question, if I opened a pod door would I be allowed to move over/across them? I'm not permitted to embark and as far as I remember, I can move through my own models.

Would an enemy be able to do the same? I think not, they'd have to go around a long way.

Depends. Most people ignore the door for all purposes. This means the Pod has a smaller foot print (otherwise you'd need room for the doors and might find it very hard to deploy), you don't treat them as hull so you cannot disembark from them, but by the same token enemy units cannot shoot them.

Naw wrote:
Now an additional question, if I opened a pod door would I be allowed to move over/across them? I'm not permitted to embark and as far as I remember, I can move through my own models.

Where are you getting that from?

Nothing even hints at being able to move through your own models.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Naw wrote:
Now an additional question, if I opened a pod door would I be allowed to move over/across them? I'm not permitted to embark and as far as I remember, I can move through my own models.

Where are you getting that from?

Nothing even hints at being able to move through your own models.

Apologies, I meant over the opened doors, not the hull.

Naw wrote:
I believe it is up to you to convince me that doors are part of the hull when they are opened, considering that the rules don't mention them at all.

They also don't explicitly mention that the tracks on a LRBT are part of the "hull". The intent of the rule is pretty obvious, however. Substantial parts of the model are considered "hull", and only small decorative elements are ignored. The doors on a drop pod are clearly a significant part of the structure of the model, not a mere decorative element, so I don't think your claim that they aren't "hull" is at all credible.

 insaniak wrote:

Vehicle Weapons And Line Of Sight wrote:
When firing a vehicle’s weapons, point them at the target and then trace line of sight from each weapons’ mounting and along its barrel to see if the shot is blocked by intervening terrain or models.

And they go on to explain what to do if you have glued the weapon in place.

You're right, it does explain it:

On some models, it will actually be impossible to move the gun and point it towards the
target because of the way the model is assembled. In this case, players should assume
that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings.

If the doors on a drop pod are glued shut then it is impossible to move the gun and point it towards the target because of the way the model is assembled. You then assume that the gun is free to rotate on its mounting, and make your best guess at LOS based on that assumption. There is no situation where you are required to physically move the gun on the model to aim at the target, and inability to reach the gun to do so does not prevent you from drawing LOS.

Inability to actually see the gun, however, makes it next to impossible to determine LOS from it with any degree of accuracy.

 insaniak wrote:
Inability to actually see the gun, however, makes it next to impossible to determine LOS from it with any degree of accuracy.

Which changes nothing from a rules point of view. As I said earlier, there are plenty of situations where checking range and/or LOS precisely is impossible because things get in the way. But that doesn't mean you conclude "no shot". In those cases you make the best estimate you can, and play it from there.

Naw wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Naw wrote:
Now an additional question, if I opened a pod door would I be allowed to move over/across them? I'm not permitted to embark and as far as I remember, I can move through my own models.

Where are you getting that from?

Nothing even hints at being able to move through your own models.

Apologies, I meant over the opened doors, not the hull.

You cant move over models either, unless given specific permission. (Like Jump/Jet pack models etc).

So if you play that the doors do count as hull, you can not move over/on top of them. and your enemy needs to stay at least 1 inch away from the doors unless they are making an assault move.

But, If you play that the doors don't count as hull, then you ignore them for game purposes.

Just magnetise the top of the doors so they dont flap around and you can open them when they're on the table