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I've got the latest Tyranid codex for Christmas and can't quite understand the supposed crapness of the Pyrovore. Fair enough it is a bit expensive for a walking flamer, but you wouldn't want to get in front of a brood of them without good armour and decent firepower, would you?

I was wondering if some of the more esoteric (i.e. hardly-used) special rules could be applied that might beef them up a bit. For example, Rampage, which would be more useful if they also had the popular Infiltrate ability in which case they'd be fighting on their own a bit. They could maybe have a high Leadership given that they would be outside Synapse. Soul Blaze seems to underwhelm the 40K fan base but if it cost no points, it wouldn't exactly be hard to explain a flamer shot setting people on fire, would it?

I also wondered if Rampage might help CSM Mutilators out, given that they'll always be outnumbered. 1-3 extra powerfist attacks each would be handy. You could also cap the unit size at six (since they come in packs of 3). People often bemoan their lack of assault grenades so what about adding those in, and maybe even giving their attacks the Blind special rule when they charge?

There are so many special rules we see again and again, and many that we rarely see (Concussive) or never see (Rampage, Strikedown).

Has anyone got any thoughts? Could any of the USRs improve existing, under-performing models?

GW handles this by formations -- take X units of Y, get Z special rules.

So you have the right idea, the cool thing about TT games is that it's very easy to alter rules to improve the experience. You just need "buy-in" from the people you play with.

Just a few small suggestions.

Jump Infantry should just have Hammer of Wrath and Fleet with their 12" movement by default.

Ork Big Shootas and/or Deffguns (the Loota gun) should have Pinning. Pinning would be a great way for Orks to help manage shooting heavy armies a bit better so they can close the gap for close combat. Also give pinning back to the Dakkajet.

Vespids should have Jump and Jet infantry rules. Make them the fast, skirmish, hit and run infantry they are meant to be.

Kroot should have either relentless or have their guns pulse rounds as assault instead of rapid fire. Kroot are THE melee unit in the Tau army fluff but they are absolutely squig gak at assaulting. They still would stink at close combat due to lack of attacks, strength, AP useless but at least charging doesn't mean giving up the more powerful shooting attacks they have.

The main problem with Pyrovores are:

1.) Their "ranged" attack is kinda crappy for what you get, being literally a heavy flamer. It's role is also filled by units more effectively for the points in other sections of the codex.

2.) They have a cool rule about ignoring armor saves but have a paltry 1 attack for it and bad WS.

3.) they die to S8 instant death too easily. While there are others in the codex with this weakness, they either back it up with a 3++ (Zoanthropes), a possible 2+ cover save (Venomthropes) or are generally so out of reach that most people wouldn't bother shooting such stuff at them (Biovores).

4.) even if you can excuse all of that, the final part is that the Pyrovore competes for the same elites slot as more useful things like the Zoanthrope, Venomthrope and Hive Guards. Even Lictors would be a better choice (which is saying something) so there's very little reason to bring a Pyrovore in unless all of those units are restricted for some reason.


As for multilators, First and foremost they need to lose Slow and Purposeful. For suppose close combat maniacs, running at the slowest speed possible hurts them badly. The issue was that GW designed them literally as Oblits with Melee Weapons, without actually changing up the support rules for them. They should trade in Slow and Purposeful for Feel No Pain, as the main issue is getting them to the fight, not the fight itself.

how many points would you willingly pay for your suggested 'improvements'?
You can 'improve' things all you want, but at what point does your 'crappy' unit become an auto take? Conscripts at a point each? Gaunts without number? How much more ridiculous do you want to make your chosen units?

If a unit is as bad as a pyrobore then there shouldn't be a point increase.

Could you improve units by re writing rules? Probably, but you also run the risk to make it worse.

If you enjoy reading those things take a look here.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/forums/show/16.page

Pyrovores have so many problems that you might as well rebuild the unit from the ground up.

As for muties, They're overcosted for what they're suppose to do right now since if you compare them to Paladins, Paladins have far more options, more weapons and psychic powers without two detrimental rules, and even then Paladins aren't considered "auto-takes", which means Muties fall far below the jedi curve.

If a unit is as crap as people make out, why would there be a points increase unless the model's abilities or equipment were vastly improved? I was talking about making them competitive and useable, not turning them into a gift from the Hive Mind.

I am kind of surprised by the lack of customisation in the Nids Codex. What happened to Synapse Creatures having the equivalent of Eternal Warrior? Why don't any of them have Fleet without buying an upgrade?

Yeah I haven't been keeping up with Nid developments, it seems like the whole Codex is a massive step back from the £12 Codex of yore, where you could spend all day creating new monsters and making Termagants cost about twenty points each.

Pyrovores can work with a fancy tyranid pod.

I stare at my pile of wyches and hellions and feel your pain, NoPoet.

 NoPoet wrote:
If a unit is as crap as people make out, why would there be a points increase unless the model's abilities or equipment were vastly improved? I was talking about making them competitive and useable, not turning them into a gift from the Hive Mind.

I am kind of surprised by the lack of customisation in the Nids Codex. What happened to Synapse Creatures having the equivalent of Eternal Warrior? Why don't any of them have Fleet without buying an upgrade?

Yeah I haven't been keeping up with Nid developments, it seems like the whole Codex is a massive step back from the £12 Codex of yore, where you could spend all day creating new monsters and making Termagants cost about twenty points each.

5th edition kicked the nids in the toxin sacs because GW needed to move the new Trygon model and because Cruddace loved tanks more than MCs.

6th was pretty half-assed too, especially since it was designed to sell more of the new Hive Tyrant and Harpy boxes. 4th was when Nids reigned supreme but sadly those days are probably never coming back.

I wouldn't despair to much, every codex post necrons has been fairly strong and are more or less competitive with each other. The Main issue is that the gap between 6 and 7th edition codexs vs 7.5 codexs

 Vankraken wrote:
Just a few small suggestions.

Jump Infantry should just have Hammer of Wrath and Fleet with their 12" movement by default.

Ork Big Shootas and/or Deffguns (the Loota gun) should have Pinning. Pinning would be a great way for Orks to help manage shooting heavy armies a bit better so they can close the gap for close combat. Also give pinning back to the Dakkajet.

Vespids should have Jump and Jet infantry rules. Make them the fast, skirmish, hit and run infantry they are meant to be.

Kroot should have either relentless or have their guns pulse rounds as assault instead of rapid fire. Kroot are THE melee unit in the Tau army fluff but they are absolutely squig gak at assaulting. They still would stink at close combat due to lack of attacks, strength, AP useless but at least charging doesn't mean giving up the more powerful shooting attacks they have.

The idea popped into my head that Vespids are intended to be a unit that ties up approaching units so that your Fire Warriors and Broadsides can redeploy away from danger. They're fast enough to get into combat, tough enough to take a bit of a beating from most things, and have Hit and Run and high enough Initiative to get out of there again whenever they want -- thus allowing your now redeployed Tau to blow the enemy away.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I wouldn't despair to much, every codex post necrons has been fairly strong and are more or less competitive with each other. The Main issue is that the gap between 6 and 7th edition codexs vs 7.5 codexs

I would not put 'Codex: Gorepack' on the same level as the likes of Necrons/Eldar/Marines/Tau. They're not too far behind Dark Angels, but the typical Admech lists one sees that makes heavy use of 'Codex: Blood Taxi Service' are also pretty rough on the Khornekin...

The main issues being that the book did absolutely nothing to fix all the inherent flaws & drawbacks that Chaos Marines generally suffer from.
Really, you take away the Gorepack formation, and the book could very easily be mistaken for a pre-Necron level codex!

I agree that there is still a gap, but I don't think it's as much as the other books.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 NoPoet wrote:
If a unit is as crap as people make out, why would there be a points increase unless the model's abilities or equipment were vastly improved? I was talking about making them competitive and useable, not turning them into a gift from the Hive Mind.

I am kind of surprised by the lack of customisation in the Nids Codex. What happened to Synapse Creatures having the equivalent of Eternal Warrior? Why don't any of them have Fleet without buying an upgrade?

Yeah I haven't been keeping up with Nid developments, it seems like the whole Codex is a massive step back from the £12 Codex of yore, where you could spend all day creating new monsters and making Termagants cost about twenty points each.

5th edition kicked the nids in the toxin sacs because GW needed to move the new Trygon model and because Cruddace loved tanks more than MCs.

6th was pretty half-assed too, especially since it was designed to sell more of the new Hive Tyrant and Harpy boxes. 4th was when Nids reigned supreme but sadly those days are probably never coming back.

2nd was when Nids reigned. Not 4th.

Martel732 wrote:
2nd was when Nids reigned. Not 4th.

Sorry. I started in the last years of 3rd. For a while I was convinced that GW wasn't 'that bad' because they included minidexes in the back of the rulebook. It took me a couple years to realize why they were there - the changeover from the RT era to a d6 game.
I can only assume that my recollection of the 85 point Carnifex is like so many others - I have a relatively short memory.

 Vankraken wrote:
Just a few small suggestions.

Jump Infantry should just have Hammer of Wrath and Fleet with their 12" movement by default.

Ork Big Shootas and/or Deffguns (the Loota gun) should have Pinning. Pinning would be a great way for Orks to help manage shooting heavy armies a bit better so they can close the gap for close combat. Also give pinning back to the Dakkajet.

Vespids should have Jump and Jet infantry rules. Make them the fast, skirmish, hit and run infantry they are meant to be.

Kroot should have either relentless or have their guns pulse rounds as assault instead of rapid fire. Kroot are THE melee unit in the Tau army fluff but they are absolutely squig gak at assaulting. They still would stink at close combat due to lack of attacks, strength, AP useless but at least charging doesn't mean giving up the more powerful shooting attacks they have.

i always thought that orks big thing should be unit synergy bonuses. these are bonuses granted not through a formation but by simply taking so many of a unit. so for example here if you took three squads of gretchin all your warbuggies got one extra shooting attack that was a one time use, and then if you took say 3 squads of buggies all your bikes got hammer of wrath, with the idea that you take units that dont look like they should go togeather at all but because you did the units were better for it. doing this you could give less taken units stronger bonuses then better units did and then suddenly you see those units come back. it would also be a lot more orky, orkses dont have troop formations or strikeforces, the last time an ork had a plan he was trying to decide if he should stomp the enemy in at night or stomp the enemy in the morning. this makes their armies have a feeling of being more rag tag. plus it would be funny as all hell to see an army of just wtf nonsense across the table that makes absolutely 0 fething sense compared to other armies suddenly have its dakkajets kamikaze strike the enemy deployment zone and coat it in large plates, and the burna's all infiltrated right up next to enemy units and set them all ablaze with flame templates, and then the buggies roll in from the outflank to pickup the pieces. all because in your deployment zone was some deffcopta's and some empty trukks

Been ages since I played so I can be wrong here. Wouldn't Pyrovores be ok, not good but ok if they had torrent? Isn't that the rule that you can shoot the flamer template up to 12" away?