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No. Can it Scout redeploy without the WG or other Eldar units having Scout? It's the same thing with the OP intepretation of the rules.

I'm asking as Scout on a vehicle for Eldar is nothing new, and if the rule is so clear, is there evidence this is widely accepted?

What interpretation? The one that literally follows the rules, or your one, which doesn't?

Yeah I see people scouting transports all the time heck your interpretation makes the Ork Battle Wagon formation pointless as only the battle wagons ever have scout. Are you stating that vehicles that have passengers only scout redeploy 6"? Again do you have ANY evidence in the form of rules to support this?

I'm asking as the way you are indicateing it works has existed in the Eldar and Dark Eldar codex for last 7-8 months, yet you use an Ork detachment as an example of how it should be allowed.

If your interpretation is that clear, where has this been over the past 8 months with Eldar /DE armies?

It has been there. Not sure what you are getting at? Yes you can do this with Eldar and have been able to for a while. No it isn't very good so it isn't something people use in competitive play.

So why are we discussing an Ork detachment as to provide evidence why this is legal? It's been an Eldar thing for awhile now. This gives turn 1 assault capability to units that are considered mediocre/poor. Said units are only considered poor because they have no way to reliably get into assault. This provides the solution and those units are still universally panned (Banshees, Scorpions and Wraithblades).

What I am getting at is that your intepretation of the rules which allows this turn 1 assault is not as clear as you describe for this particular situation.

Those units ONLY get into assault if you get that Warlord Trait take the Raiders for them AND go first. This is why it is not seen very much. But it has undoubtedly been around for a while now.

 Sarigar wrote:
I'm asking as the way you are indicateing it works has existed in the Eldar and Dark Eldar codex for last 7-8 months, yet you use an Ork detachment as an example of how it should be allowed.

If your interpretation is that clear, where has this been over the past 8 months with Eldar /DE armies?

No, we're saying the only rule disallowing this exists with the orks. Meaning that it is more than likely it is possible, barring a rule otherwise - which you cannot provide

It's allowed. Your examples pretty terrible in game as well.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Those units ONLY get into assault if you get that Warlord Trait take the Raiders for them AND go first. This is why it is not seen very much. But it has undoubtedly been around for a while now.

Eldrad, Tantalus and fill up to taste. Guaranteed Scout Warlord Trait. It's pretty easy.

You still need first turn or you've wasted 200+ points on a fairly weak tactic.

Given a tantalus is a ton of points, even going first you've just killed your tantalus.,.

scout LR full of terminators?

Yawn. You could do 3 in 5th with shrike. It was terrible then and still is.

Sarigar, we provided the Ork Example because it contained a rule which called out the specific scenario in order to DISALLOW it. It is the only instance of a rule which RESTRICTS units from charging after their transport has scouted. Yes, Eldar/Dark Eldar combos have been able to scout and charge for some time, and it's not overly great due to the fragility of Dark Eldar transports so if you don't go first it's super unreliable. The Ork formation provided a rules example that specifically called out the scenario in question and said "These guys specifically needed a special rule to prevent them from charging after their transport scouts", because normally units CAN do it.

Bojazz wrote:
Sarigar, we provided the Ork Example because it contained a rule which called out the specific scenario in order to DISALLOW it. It is the only instance of a rule which RESTRICTS units from charging after their transport has scouted. Yes, Eldar/Dark Eldar combos have been able to scout and charge for some time, and it's not overly great due to the fragility of Dark Eldar transports so if you don't go first it's super unreliable. The Ork formation provided a rules example that specifically called out the scenario in question and said "These guys specifically needed a special rule to prevent them from charging after their transport scouts", because normally units CAN do it.

But no one but you guys have come up with the idea, which leads me to believe that if the transport Scouts, the unit inside does too because their position on the tabletop has changed during the Scout Phase.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
But no one but you guys have come up with the idea, which leads me to believe that if the transport Scouts, the unit inside does too because their position on the tabletop has changed during the Scout Phase.

That's faulty reasoning if ever I heard it.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

Bojazz wrote:
Sarigar, we provided the Ork Example because it contained a rule which called out the specific scenario in order to DISALLOW it. It is the only instance of a rule which RESTRICTS units from charging after their transport has scouted. Yes, Eldar/Dark Eldar combos have been able to scout and charge for some time, and it's not overly great due to the fragility of Dark Eldar transports so if you don't go first it's super unreliable. The Ork formation provided a rules example that specifically called out the scenario in question and said "These guys specifically needed a special rule to prevent them from charging after their transport scouts", because normally units CAN do it.

But no one but you guys have come up with the idea, which leads me to believe that if the transport Scouts, the unit inside does too because their position on the tabletop has changed during the Scout Phase.

No, their deployment has not altered - embarked. That's proven.

So you are saying the infantry unit inside restricts the transport to only displacing 6"? Yes or no.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

Bojazz wrote:
Sarigar, we provided the Ork Example because it contained a rule which called out the specific scenario in order to DISALLOW it. It is the only instance of a rule which RESTRICTS units from charging after their transport has scouted. Yes, Eldar/Dark Eldar combos have been able to scout and charge for some time, and it's not overly great due to the fragility of Dark Eldar transports so if you don't go first it's super unreliable. The Ork formation provided a rules example that specifically called out the scenario in question and said "These guys specifically needed a special rule to prevent them from charging after their transport scouts", because normally units CAN do it.

But no one but you guys have come up with the idea, which leads me to believe that if the transport Scouts, the unit inside does too because their position on the tabletop has changed during the Scout Phase.

No, their deployment has not altered - embarked. That's proven.

So you are saying the infantry unit inside restricts the transport to only displacing 6"? Yes or no.

Their deployment has altered by 12", if you moved them that far. The vehicle has Scouted, therefore the occupants have also Scouted with the vehicle. They must Scout with the vehicle because they can't disembark in the Scout Phase. If the vehicle infiltrated or outflanked, would the occupants still be able to assault?

So you cannot answer a single simple question. Good to know

Nope, their deployment, which is embarked, has not altered. That is true, regardless of you ignoring it.

Their position on the table hasn't altered.

The embarked unit hasn't scouted, if they had, you could provide a rule stating this. You cannot. Added to this we have the persuasive argument that it is still less usual for GW to write a redundant rule than it is for theme to write a rule which has function as such, the existence of the ork rule adds to the case that, simply put, you are wrong.

So... what we're saying is that in a permissive ruleset, where you have to have permission to do anything, restricting something for something else is the same as permitting it for someone else?

 deviantduck wrote:
So... what we're saying is that in a permissive ruleset, where you have to have permission to do anything, restricting something for something else is the same as permitting it for someone else?

No, that isn't it at all

I have permission to assault (presuming within 12" etc)

Deny me that permission. Do it, or concede the position

As was explained multiple times, the restriction mentioned acts as persuasive evidence in support of the defacto position. It in no way helps out the contrary.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
But no one but you guys have come up with the idea, which leads me to believe that if the transport Scouts, the unit inside does too because their position on the tabletop has changed during the Scout Phase.

That's completely false. No one but us in all of the world has come up with assaulting out of a scouted transport? This has been a topic of debate on dakka MANY times before. A forum search will find those threads for you. Here's two.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/620687.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/601816.page
A simple google search will find many more.

The threads usually consist of someone saying they can't and someone saying they can. Outflank and Deep Strike come up as comparable situations, but ultimately no one ever provides any evidence that the unit inside the transport has made a scout redeployment. The unit has generic permission to assault in the assault phase, and since there is no rule in the book which states they count as having made a scout redeployment if their transport does, then there is nothing restricting the permission to assault.

Bojazz wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
But no one but you guys have come up with the idea, which leads me to believe that if the transport Scouts, the unit inside does too because their position on the tabletop has changed during the Scout Phase.

That's completely false. No one but us in all of the world has come up with assaulting out of a scouted transport? This has been a topic of debate on dakka MANY times before. A forum search will find those threads for you. Here's two.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/620687.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/601816.page
A simple google search will find many more.

The threads usually consist of someone saying they can't and someone saying they can. Outflank and Deep Strike come up as comparable situations, but ultimately no one ever provides any evidence that the unit inside the transport has made a scout redeployment. The unit has generic permission to assault in the assault phase, and since there is no rule in the book which states they count as having made a scout redeployment if their transport does, then there is nothing restricting the permission to assault.

I've given up this argument, dude. In the meantime, I've figured out a way to get Calgar in assault Turn 1

I've updated the Original post

 Tactical_Spam wrote:


I've given up this argument, dude. In the meantime, I've figured out a way to get Calgar in assault Turn 1

Is it a reliable and reasonably costed way?

 jokerkd wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:


I've given up this argument, dude. In the meantime, I've figured out a way to get Calgar in assault Turn 1

Is it a reliable and reasonably costed way?

Reliable? If you play Hammer and Anvil it may work, but your enemy would have had to deployed like an idiot.
Reasonably costed? Nope. Assault Terminators + Calgar + LR Crusader + Inquisitor.

Why not just take a Skyhammer if you want Calgar in combat turn 1? Also grab Belial for the guarantee.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/01/04/rules-debate-scouting-vehicles-and-first-turn-assaults/#comment-462608

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why not just take a Skyhammer if you want Calgar in combat turn 1? Also grab Belial for the guarantee.

Because Terminators > Assault Marines

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why not just take a Skyhammer if you want Calgar in combat turn 1? Also grab Belial for the guarantee.

Because Terminators > Assault Marines

That seems debatable.