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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/03 19:15:15
Subject: Hull Mounted weapons question.
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Norn Queen
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The rulebook states that when a weapon is mounted to the hull of a vehicle, even if it cannot move you should assume it can swivel 45 degrees on it's mounting horizontally. Because everything written seems to be written for space marines they give an example of a marine tank with the front mounted gun being able to adjust slightly to the left and right.
Here is my question, this applies to all vehicles and all weapons correct? A Doomsday ark for necrons can "swivel" it's under slung doomsday cannon up to 45 degrees from the front facing for determining firing arcs as can the salvo arrays mounted on the sides?
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These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/03 20:48:37
Subject: Re:Hull Mounted weapons question.
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Executing Exarch
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Yes, though remember that it's 45 degrees total, so 22.5 to each side (and up and down as well).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/03 23:40:11
Subject: Hull Mounted weapons question.
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Norn Queen
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Awesome. Isn't it a full 45 up though? 22.5 degree up would never be able to hit gak on the table.
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These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/03 23:43:01
Subject: Hull Mounted weapons question.
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Auspicious Daemonic Herald
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Lance845 wrote:Awesome. Isn't it a full 45 up though? 22.5 degree up would never be able to hit gak on the table.
the book doesn't say looking up is different
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/03 23:57:45
Subject: Hull Mounted weapons question.
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Lance845 wrote:Awesome. Isn't it a full 45 up though? 22.5 degree up would never be able to hit gak on the table.
Neither can 45. Height is really poorly dealt with in the current rules, and from my experience is generally just ignored.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/04 02:18:50
Subject: Hull Mounted weapons question.
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Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps
Phoenix, AZ, USA
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In the rare cases when it matters, assume that guns can swivel vertically up to 45º, even if the barrel on the model itself cannot physically do that! Additionally, assume all hull-mounted weapons can swivel horizontally up to 45º.”
Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Warhammer 40,000 (eBook Edition).
It's 45-degrees up, 45 down, 45 left, 45 right, not 22.5.
SJ
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“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/04 03:33:13
Subject: Hull Mounted weapons question.
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Executing Exarch
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jeffersonian000 wrote:In the rare cases when it matters, assume that guns can swivel vertically up to 45º, even if the barrel on the model itself cannot physically do that! Additionally, assume all hull-mounted weapons can swivel horizontally up to 45º.”
Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Warhammer 40,000 (eBook Edition).
It's 45-degrees up, 45 down, 45 left, 45 right, not 22.5.
SJ
The diagram looks like 22.5 each way, rather than 45. (Arc of Sight 2, page 74).
And I agree with Insaniak, the vertical is flat-out one of the most commonly ignored rules in any gaming group I've been part of.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/04 03:48:45
Subject: Hull Mounted weapons question.
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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The Diagrams are nothing more than Pretty little pictures; it is the written rules that matter.
The written rules state "...Hull mounted weapons can swivel horizontally up to 45*."
45 to each side is 90*, so while you are correct quanar, the reasoning is not.
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This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/04 03:52:11
Subject: Hull Mounted weapons question.
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Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps
Phoenix, AZ, USA
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There is what they wrote (RAW), and what they pictured (RAI). What they wrote takes precedence unitl a FAQ or Errata changes it.
SJ
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“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/04 03:53:50
Subject: Hull Mounted weapons question.
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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That would be swiveling vertically up to 90 degrees.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/04 03:58:25
Subject: Hull Mounted weapons question.
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Douglas Bader
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Kommissar Kel wrote:The Diagrams are nothing more than Pretty little pictures; it is the written rules that matter.
{citation needed}
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/04 04:04:48
Subject: Hull Mounted weapons question.
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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You want me to cite where the rules state that you have to read the rules?
Or do you want me to point out that the pretty little picture in question does not actually show a hull-mounted weapon(that Lascannon can actually swivel in its mounting and can do so more than 45* total; If you, y'know, follow the written rules)?
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This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/04 04:13:30
Subject: Re:Hull Mounted weapons question.
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Douglas Bader
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I want you to cite a rule that says that explanatory pictures/diagrams are not considered part of the rules.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/04 04:30:19
Subject: Hull Mounted weapons question.
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Kommissar Kel wrote:that Lascannon can actually swivel in its mounting and can do so more than 45* total; If you, y'know, follow the written rules)?
If the weapon is defined as Hull-mounted in its rules, the fact that it can physically swivel further than that is irrelevant.
Walkers have the same issue... Their weapons are restricted to a 45 degree arc by their rules regardless of how they can actually move on the model.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/04 08:10:44
Subject: Hull Mounted weapons question.
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Cog in the Machine
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The problem here is that the rules don't state clearly how to measure swiveling; is it 45 degrees from the centreline or around the centreline?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/04 08:59:30
Subject: Hull Mounted weapons question.
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
Ankh Morpork
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vundere wrote:The problem here is that the rules don't state clearly how to measure swiveling; is it 45 degrees from the centreline or around the centreline?
The diagram in the rulebook which illustrates this clearly shows 45 degrees around the centre line, i.e. 22.5 degrees either side of centre.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/04 09:28:50
Subject: Hull Mounted weapons question.
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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insaniak wrote: Kommissar Kel wrote:that Lascannon can actually swivel in its mounting and can do so more than 45* total; If you, y'know, follow the written rules)?
If the weapon is defined as Hull-mounted in its rules, the fact that it can physically swivel further than that is irrelevant.
Walkers have the same issue... Their weapons are restricted to a 45 degree arc by their rules regardless of how they can actually move on the model.
And that weapon is not defined as Hull mounted in the rules.
In fact just about none of the Datasheets currently define the mountings of the weapons(absolutely none in the AM codex, aside from Sponson Definition; And the AM codex was written prior or congruent to the current rulebook).
The Leman Russ Squadron Simply states that the Russ Variants have a Heavy bolter, and that the Heavy Bolter can be replaced by a Lascannon or a Heavy Flamer.
The Sponson options are defined in the rules as Sponsons, but for those we also go and check the written rules instead of those pretty little pictures(point the gun at the target, or Line of fire is what it looks like the gun is capable of traversing to).
The Gun on the Doomsday Ark runs along the spine of the vehicle; as near as we can tell, that would place it under the ill-defined "Hull mounted weapon"
Walkers have their own Arc of Fire rules, that is why there is a specific section of their rules devoted to it. Citing Walkers being different from the swiveling lascannon on the russ as evidence that the diagram is correct is like citing that Beast move 12", aren't slowed by difficult terrain, and auto-pass Dangerous terrain tests as evidence that infantry can do the same.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/04 09:36:16
This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/04 09:45:23
Subject: Hull Mounted weapons question.
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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It used to be, but obviously at some point they dropped it off. Not too surprising given the general lack of weapon definition all around these days.
Doesn't change the point I was actually making, though, which is that the movement possible on the model is irrelevant where a hull mount is specified.
Citing Walkers being different from the swiveling lascannon on the russ as evidence that the diagram is correct ...
I suspect that you have completely misinterpreted my post.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/04 09:53:23
Subject: Hull Mounted weapons question.
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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insaniak wrote:Walkers have the same issue... Their weapons are restricted to a 45 degree arc by their rules regardless of how they can actually move on the model.
Not sure how I misinterpreted this.
You have the basic vehicle written rules that you swivel weapons(physically or imaginary) for Arc of Fire; then Walker written rules that change those rules.
You stated that the Walker written rules provide "the same issue" as the Lascannon on the Russ in the picture. The Russ in the Picture is simply counter to the actual written rules in all cases: There is no issue.
Maybe I was expecting that you knew the Russ was no longer defined(I am Primarily a guard player, so it is something I know off-hand).
Back in 4th the MM on a Land Raider Crusader was defined as Hull-mounted, even though the model had it on a pintle mount. My mount kept braking so I removed some of the Lights in the front and took an old Demolisher MM Sponson Barrel and glued it in there. When I play with that Crusader I still use the Arc for hull mouont as that is the manner in which it is mounted.
Turrets are another Case where the Pictures are not the be-all-end-all; not all Turrets even can swivel 360*. You have to follow the written rules.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/04 09:59:19
This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/04 10:20:18
Subject: Hull Mounted weapons question.
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
Ankh Morpork
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Kommissar Kel wrote:Not sure how I misinterpreted this.
You have the basic vehicle written rules that you swivel weapons(physically or imaginary) for Arc of Fire; then Walker written rules that change those rules.
You stated that the Walker written rules provide "the same issue" as the Lascannon on the Russ in the picture. The Russ in the Picture is simply counter to the actual written rules in all cases: There is no issue.
He said if the weapon is defined as hull-mounted, not specifically the Lascannon on a Leman Russ.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/04 10:27:54
Subject: Hull Mounted weapons question.
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Kommissar Kel wrote:
You stated that the Walker written rules provide "the same issue" as the Lascannon on the Russ in the picture..
No, I started that the walker rules provide the same issue as Hull mounted weapons that can physically move.
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