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If humans had the technology to create primarches and space marines, why can't other races do it? Don't tell me it's cause they don't have"geneseeds" is there an actual reason as to why the eldar or tau haven't created their own super soldiers yet?

Eldar Aspect Warriors are already on a par with Space Marines - Exarchs are above them.

Tau - its possible that extermination with genetics and cybernetics may result in improved Tau warriors - or it might go horribly wrong

Primarchs are a bit more tricky and its unlikely the Eldar would create them and they already have the Pheonix Lords.

Orks just get bigger and harder the more they fight and win so they don't have to do anything - just fight and win

Trynaids evolve so already covered

Dark Eldar - again they grow more powerful as they age as long as they continue to drain enough souls....

Chaos - They already do similar but often way way more icky things to make enhanced warriors and they can become spawn or Daemon Princes

have I missed anyone?

But why don't the eldar make "superhuman" eldar instead? If an astartes is what it is to a human, imagine what a biologically modified super eldar would look like to an aspect warrior

 Mr Morden wrote:
Eldar Aspect Warriors are already on a par with Space Marines - Exarchs are above them.

Tau - its possible that extermination with genetics and cybernetics may result in improved Tau warriors - or it might go horribly wrong

Primarchs are a bit more tricky and its unlikely the Eldar would create them and they already have the Pheonix Lords.

Orks just get bigger and harder the more they fight and win so they don't have to do anything - just fight and win

Trynaids evolve so already covered

Dark Eldar - again they grow more powerful as they age as long as they continue to drain enough souls....

Chaos - They already do similar but often way way more icky things to make enhanced warriors and they can become spawn or Daemon Princes

have I missed anyone?

You forgot necrons.

123ply wrote:
But why don't the eldar make "superhuman" eldar instead? If an astartes is what it is to a human, imagine what a biologically modified super eldar would look like to an aspect warrior

Likely because it would lock them into a specific path - only the Exarchs are locked, other Eldar who tread the warrior path only sample it for a bit then do something else. If you are made into a awesome killing machine it may not also make you a great poet or gardener.............

You forgot necrons.

Ah yes - well they can't do the whole Bio enhancement until they get a biological body - but in the meantime they do create better and more advanced mechanical bodies for better warriors so I guess they do it already.

They don't need to. Every race has used their tech and their knowledge to create their answer or their version of the Space Marine.

Think about it this way: If Humans can have different ideals, opinions and values, just imagine HOW different those ideals are for an entirely different Species. The Eldar might look at the Genetic Modifications on the level of a Space Marine as a Waste of time compared to an Aspect Warrior.

Same goes for Tau, Why build Super Soldiers, and risk losing a perfectly good normal soldier if it goes wrong, when you can build Battlesuits and train your whole army( besides the new recruits) on how to operate a slew of different Mechs for whatever occasion?

If 40k didn't rely upon such a slim cast of species, then we likely would see more genetically engineered super-souldiers. As it is, not so much.

Ahove posters are correct imo, the fluff seems to point to the fact that as far as soldiering goes, normal humans are at the bottom of the food chain and that assets like astropaths and navigators are the real might behind the Imperium. Every race are superior to non-astartes at warfare, but the umies' have numbers and a galaxy spanning economy to back them up.

The fluff and novels are also fairly consistent in saying that it is the mental conditioning and not the fancy augments and power armour that allowed the astartes to emerge as the galaxy's dominant military force.

The novel Blood Gorgons really goes into detail how a marine has been psycho-conditioned to be a Terminator esque bad ass.

The idea of a super soldier is a very human idea. Make something better through technology at warfare. This limits their options for life beyond conflict, but that sacrifice is worth it for the greater good of humanity. the fluff reason for xenos not to have them would include as follows:

The Eldar don't do it, because, it is very unnatural, and would conflict with the entire mentality of a craftworlder.

Dark elder already do it to a certain extent with grotesques and pain engines but they see that as rather base or a fate best left for a lesser creature. The average DE is too self centered to sacrifice what is necessary for it, but fear giving that much power to a slave.

Tau have the problem of numbers. If the setting was realistic, the tau would be an expansion in a specific campaign, not a full blown faction. There are probably more tau minis in RL than actual fire warriors in universe. They use their technology as a force multiplier, so investing in the super soldier tech would be wasteful when they can design and mass produce a gun capable of killing astartes with ease.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Orks just get bigger and harder the more they fight and win so they don't have to do anything - just fight and win

Lastly, necrons, do have them. they are called immortals.

You guys have a good point, but It's just hard for me to fathom that the an alien species, like the Tau, bump into humans and only ever have trouble against the humans' super soldier. Not sure why they haven't come up with the idea of genetically modifying a fire warrior shas'ui in their own type of battle suit or whatnot.

Humanity is still alive because they are using super humans to fight "regular aliens," how haven't the blue skins realized how much more effective it would be to have a small number of "Adeptus Taustartes" acting as their very own space Marines? They'd be likely even more effective than a human super soldier

123ply wrote:
You guys have a good point, but It's just hard for me to fathom that the an alien species, like the Tau, bump into humans and only ever have trouble against the humans' super soldier. Not sure why they haven't come up with the idea of genetically modifying a fire warrior shas'ui in their own type of battle suit or whatnot.

Humanity is still alive because they are using super humans to fight "regular aliens," how haven't the blue skins realized how much more effective it would be to have a small number of "Adeptus Taustartes" acting as their very own space Marines? They'd be likely even more effective than a human super soldier

Humanity is alive thanks to its resilience during the old night.

the Tau do have astartes they have broadsides and bigger.

 Mr. Burning wrote:

123ply wrote:
You guys have a good point, but It's just hard for me to fathom that the an alien species, like the Tau, bump into humans and only ever have trouble against the humans' super soldier. Not sure why they haven't come up with the idea of genetically modifying a fire warrior shas'ui in their own type of battle suit or whatnot.

Humanity is still alive because they are using super humans to fight "regular aliens," how haven't the blue skins realized how much more effective it would be to have a small number of "Adeptus Taustartes" acting as their very own space Marines? They'd be likely even more effective than a human super soldier

Humanity is alive thanks to its resilience during the old night.

the Tau do have astartes they have broadsides and bigger.

A broadside does not = astartes. That's like saying, "the Imperial guard do have crisis suits, theyre called have space marines" like what the feth? I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or what lol

123ply wrote:
You guys have a good point, but It's just hard for me to fathom that the an alien species, like the Tau, bump into humans and only ever have trouble against the humans' super soldier. Not sure why they haven't come up with the idea of genetically modifying a fire warrior shas'ui in their own type of battle suit or whatnot.

Humanity is still alive because they are using super humans to fight "regular aliens," how haven't the blue skins realized how much more effective it would be to have a small number of "Adeptus Taustartes" acting as their very own space Marines? They'd be likely even more effective than a human super soldier

Humanity is still alive because it has lots and lots of things the Tau don't

Vast manpower resources spanning the galaxy
Fleets of extremely powerful warships that the Tau can't match in sheer power, resilience and which have warp drives. There are also very many of these ships - thousands in fact.

The Astartes are a powerful force but they are only part of the vast war machine that the Imperium fields - The varied and formidable Guard Regiments, the God Machines of the Adeptus Mechanicus who also have their own fleets), the Sororitas, the Assassins, etc etc.

Psykers - now the Tau do have races within their Empire which are apparently powerful but they seldom use them on the battlefield.............and not for communication although I think they have retconed it so the Tau now have FTL communications?

It is not clear how far the science of biological manipulation has come in the Tau empire - they may not even fully understand what the Space Marines are - considering them to be a different race within the Imperium - like the Kroot in their own Empire.

It also may be that they have been trying this out - and it didn't work or went badly wrong...............

Astartes and the Primarchs are primarily the results of warp magic coupled with beyond-genius level intellect from an incarnated god. The Tau, and hell even the Eldar and Necrons, simply don't have a figure like the Emperor of Mankind who is willing to go toe-to-toe with the Chaos Gods and steal arcane knowledge from them.

again, the Tau are too small to have this kind of program. They control a handful of worlds, and their numbers cant justify the cost of a program like this. It is easier, more cost effective, and less invasive to create technology usable by everyone.

Why create a genetically engineered super soldier when i can create a gun that has the power to kill just about anything, and just about anyone can pick up and use. Why make the being bigger/stronger tougher, when I could just build a machine or suit of armor to do that. If they had a space marine type of group they would have to develop large armors and weapons for them, and the resources available don't support the cost of both the spacemarinification technology and the support equipment and gear for them to use. Cut out the middle man and just make superior gear that everyone can use.

The tau already have their genetically modified super warriors. They are called kroot.

Different tactics for different people. The tau are control a rather small amount of planets and don't have nearly a fraction of the population that the IOM has. The process to make a marine kills a lot of people, and leaves many more some what crippled. The Tau are not unlike the current US military were we are willing to spend and lose millions in equipment rather than sacrafice lives, since they can simple make more drones, tanks, suits, etc. Meanwhile, the IOM can't replace a lot of it's war machines and many that can be replaced are done at a snails pace. However they have no lack of fresh recruits to throw at various enemies.

Exactly so.

Bear in mind that the Astartes recruitment process kills between 90 and 99% of the people picked for it.

The Tau could spend the lives of many Shas'La on generic modification that may or may not work (bear in mind there's no indication that the Tau are anywhere near as good at biosciences as they are at engineering) or spend the money and resources on a battlesuit.

The effect is the same in either case - a warrior elite massively more capable than a 'normal' warrior. But achieved in different ways.

Wow.

Some of you guys really don't know your Tau fluff very well.

Look. The Fire Caste? They are the Tau's answer to Space Marines. They have been selectively bred and modified as soldiers for the last six thousand years.

The Fire Caste are Tau super-soldiers. Non-Fire-Caste Tau really are just that weak, physically speaking.

I've never seen any fluff that a fire-warrior is any where close as to a Marine is endurance, strength or speed.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I've never seen any fluff that a fire-warrior is any where close as to a Marine is endurance, strength or speed.

Exactly. What I think Furyou is saying is that the best of Tau genetic modification = Fire Warriors. The Imperial standard is so much better.

Put it this way: Tau and Marine bio-engineering might be (we will assume so in this case) equally potent. It improves the individual 100% better.
However, Space Marines have a tougher baseline to work off, compared to the weaker Tau baseline.

Basically:
Tau Space Marines (their fire warriors) < Imperial Space Marines
because the Tau can only improve their baseline by so much. The best Tau can do (for now) is a Fire Warrior, compared to the Astartes, whose baseline is as strong as a Fire Warriors anyway.

Tau civilians are just really, really weak, apparently.

The Tau equivalent to a Space Marine would be a Crisis Suit. Tau leadership takes their best Fire Warriors/Pathfinders and give them the honor of piloting a suit (crisis, broadside, stealth, etc). Tau don't need to genetically modify their already selectively bred warrior caste when they let combat weed out the inferior and elevate the superior. Technology is how they can turn the relatively weak Fire Warrior into a more durable and effective combat unit.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I've never seen any fluff that a fire-warrior is any where close as to a Marine is endurance, strength or speed.

The question was "Why don't other races use technology to create super-soldiers".

Well. Fire Warriors are what happens when you try and turn a Tau into a super-soldier.

He's a bit gak, compared to a human super-soldier.

But he's still a super-soldier to the Tau.

Simply put: Other races do create super-soldiers. Craftworld Eldar create Exarchs. Dark Eldar create Grotesques. Tau create the Fire Caste. Old Ones create Orks (and Eldar).

Tyranids just... make Tyranids.

These are all "Super-Soldiers". Don't be fooled by the lack of a 4-by-4s stat line and power armour.

The old ones did this as did the C'tan.
Both resulted in way more spectacular results then just a few marines.

 oldzoggy wrote:
The old ones did this as did the C'tan.
Both resulted in way more spectacular results then just a few marines.

You're comparing literal galaxy-spanning species of Gods' efforts to the efforts of a single Godling? Yeah, sure, that totally tracks.

The Space Marines are only possible using the DNA of Primarchs, who in turn were created partly using the Emperor's genetics, who is a bunvh of shamans spiritually smashed together, and, y'know, basically a god, plus he still need Warp stuff to make them. I doubt Eldar would even consider that route, Orks and Necrons don't really need to, Chaos do already and Tau don't have the warp magick part to make Primarchs. Simple.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I've never seen any fluff that a fire-warrior is any where close as to a Marine is endurance, strength or speed.

The question was "Why don't other races use technology to create super-soldiers".

Well. Fire Warriors are what happens when you try and turn a Tau into a super-soldier.

He's a bit gak, compared to a human super-soldier.

But he's still a super-soldier to the Tau.

Simply put: Other races do create super-soldiers. Craftworld Eldar create Exarchs. Dark Eldar create Grotesques. Tau create the Fire Caste. Old Ones create Orks (and Eldar).

Tyranids just... make Tyranids.

These are all "Super-Soldiers". Don't be fooled by the lack of a 4-by-4s stat line and power armour.

It's not really comparable, The fire caste use selective breeding, but it's nowhere to the level of normal human vs SM. Not even close. They are no more "super-soldiers" than an extremely muscular and fit human.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I've never seen any fluff that a fire-warrior is any where close as to a Marine is endurance, strength or speed.

The question was "Why don't other races use technology to create super-soldiers".

Well. Fire Warriors are what happens when you try and turn a Tau into a super-soldier.

He's a bit gak, compared to a human super-soldier.

But he's still a super-soldier to the Tau.

Simply put: Other races do create super-soldiers. Craftworld Eldar create Exarchs. Dark Eldar create Grotesques. Tau create the Fire Caste. Old Ones create Orks (and Eldar).

Tyranids just... make Tyranids.

These are all "Super-Soldiers". Don't be fooled by the lack of a 4-by-4s stat line and power armour.

Grotesques? They are hardly super soldiers when they get their stuff kicked in repeatedly. Those little skinless daemon dogs are more dangerous than a grotesque

Sigh. You guys are still completely missing the point. I've explained it twice, go reread it until you understand that its a matter of relativity.

Others have turned their hand to genetic engineering, but no one else has the capability to blend science and sorcery as well as the Emperor.