Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I would like to be able to field these armies together with a more comprehensive ruleset without having to rely on the Crutchvocation formation.

So this is my proposed quick house-rule to get the Cult and Skitarii in the single codex they really should be.

Rule change 1: Eliminate Doctrina Imperatives. This rule is functional, but ultimately, boring. I would like to use the more interesting Cult Mechanicus Canticles mechanic for the combined force, with a few restrictions.

Rule Change 2: Increase Skitarii Ranger and Vanguard max unit size to 15 models. If the Squad numbers 15 models, the unit gains Canticles of the Omnissiah.

Add Canticles of the Omnissiah to Ironstrider and Dragoon squadrons that number 3 or more models.

Add Canticles of the Omnissiah to Onager squadrons that number 2 or more models.

Add Canticles of the Omnissiah to both Sicarian types natively.

This maintains the minimum point cost of a Canticle from the Cult Mechanicus codex (a Dominus is still the cheapest Canticle) and reduces the effectiveness of shoving skitarii in transports.

Rule Change 3: Add Scout and Move Through Cover to units currently in Codex: Skitarii when taken in the unique Cult Mechanicus Detachment. Add 2 FA slots and 1 HS slot to this Detachment to allow for inclusion of Skiitari units.

Does this seem like a reasonable set of house rules?

I Like the idea of combinign them but this feels to clunky. I would put them both together as is with one difference. Every unit with Doctrina would gain canticles and every unit with Canticles would gain Doctrina. But you could only use one per turn, so you would have to choose either a canticle or a doctrina. That way its simpler, they blend more but you still get the benefits of doctrina imperatives.

One other option would be to keep it the way it is now but let skitarii count for cantcile unit strength. That way they dont get the benefits but assist inthe strength. That would be helpful when allying them together as its hard for Cult to get the max bonus when not going solo.

My only problem with that approach is it is very much "having your cake and eating it too."

The primary balance factor of Admech is the fact that they can play as a full on gunline...but they run out of shooting buffs after just a few turns either way. This means you have the extremely scary prospect of a super duper alpha strike (if you ally in crap like pods) but if you built the army as a full gunline the opponent could outlast you.

Admech is then meant to be constructed with delayed-hitting melee, so after your shooting buffs are done you can pile in with melee units and use melee buffs to sweep the enemy away.

If I can do Shroudpsalm, then Twin-link canticle, then BS7, then BS6... then there's no need to bring in the melee auxiliaries.

Also, letting Skits count for canticle strength would be a huge buff to canticles. Skits have units that cost as little as 45 points, and they can spam them en masse. You'd be basically taking away the unit count factor of Canticles in favor of just always using the strongest buff. Keeping a Canticle costing at least 130-ish points is a way to keep from having 15-plus canticle units in an army and removing Canticles as a unit number mechanic from the game, which is its primary balancing factor.

Even with a Convo, you rarely end up with more than 9 or 10 canticle units. to drop your strongest blessing, the opponent only needs to rout two units, and that's part of the difficulty of running the list. Which, frankly, is a good thing. Not everyone wants to be point and click Eldar.

I would just fold the two armies in one and come up with a sensible CAD for them, and a few more formations ideally with Objective secured. Maybe some day they will get transports and tanks of their own. Or just add in tanks and what not that make sense. I would however allow all knights to be taken in the LoW slot.

I would probably rule that the tech priest dominus grants canticles to the unit he is in (but the unit other than dom doesn't contribute unless the unit is a canticles unit) and that the dom can gain the doctrina if attached to a unit with doctrina.

I feel this is okay seeing as the dominus is the only real HQ and would allow for several styles of play.

Splitting up the Skitarii and Mechanicus into two separate armies was a lazy moneygrab, as neither army is a full army in their own right. Personally I would be happy seeing a full rewrite of both forces altogether, so that they're more self-contained. The "No transports" mechanic works for now, but otherwise, the army design screams "lazy."

Design-wise, I'm with NorseSig, about the army ideally being one that is a "Reasonable CAD" before anything else. However, with limited kits between both releases (before taking the characters into account, the Skitarii are basically 4 kits=7 units, the Cultmech 3 kits=5 units, and most of these units are heavily identical in function), this could take some work; ideally while at it, it may be prudent to add rules for Ordo Reductor troops, as detailed in the many Fantasy Flight RPG supplements.

HQ: Techpriest Dominus
HQ: Techpriest Datasmith (Can issue directives to Kataphracts/Castellans)
HQ: Techsorcist: Psyker/Techpriest, can leech Warp Charge points from Canticles. (Fluffwise, I'm aware the Techsorcist is primarily just a Techpriest that specializes in dealing with potentially salvageable tech that has been tainted with Chaos/Xenos stuff; rename this accordingly and go wild).

Troops:
Skitarii Rangers
Skitarii Vanguard
Ordo Reductor Secutors (Your "Armor 3+" combat techpriest unit)

Elites:
Electropriests (Merge into one unit)
Crimson Exemplars (Elite Secutors; can fire two weapons at once)
Sicarian Assassins (Merge Infiltrators/Rust-Stalkers, make the static hum its own special power, etc).

Fast Attack:
Sydonian Dunestriders (Merge Ironstrider/Dragoon units)
Ordo Reductor Celerii (Jump Pack Secutors)
Kataphracton Breachers (Give them a 12" move while at it)

Heavy Support:
Onager Siegecrawlers
Kataphracton Destroyers
Castellan Robot (Acts independently)

One could modify this list quite a bit. Other unit ideas include:
Electropriest Acolytes (Electrolytes? Ha!), veteran Skitarii, flyers/speeders, Servitors (like...*any* Servitors, at all), etc.

@Marc: if I wanted to make mechanicus a comprehensive list with a sensible cad i'd just use the Taghmata Omnissiah rules from 30k.

They are a better ruleset, but most people who play where I do prefer 40k to Forgeworld lists.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Splitting up the Skitarii and Mechanicus into two separate armies was a lazy moneygrab, as neither army is a full army in their own right. Personally I would be happy seeing a full rewrite of both forces altogether, so that they're more self-contained. The "No transports" mechanic works for now, but otherwise, the army design screams "lazy."

Design-wise, I'm with NorseSig, about the army ideally being one that is a "Reasonable CAD" before anything else. However, with limited kits between both releases (before taking the characters into account, the Skitarii are basically 4 kits=7 units, the Cultmech 3 kits=5 units, and most of these units are heavily identical in function), this could take some work; ideally while at it, it may be prudent to add rules for Ordo Reductor troops, as detailed in the many Fantasy Flight RPG supplements.

HQ: Techpriest Dominus
HQ: Techpriest Datasmith (Can issue directives to Kataphracts/Castellans)
HQ: Techsorcist: Psyker/Techpriest, can leech Warp Charge points from Canticles. (Fluffwise, I'm aware the Techsorcist is primarily just a Techpriest that specializes in dealing with potentially salvageable tech that has been tainted with Chaos/Xenos stuff; rename this accordingly and go wild).

Troops:
Skitarii Rangers
Skitarii Vanguard
Ordo Reductor Secutors (Your "Armor 3+" combat techpriest unit)

Elites:
Electropriests (Merge into one unit)
Crimson Exemplars (Elite Secutors; can fire two weapons at once)
Sicarian Assassins (Merge Infiltrators/Rust-Stalkers, make the static hum its own special power, etc).

Fast Attack:
Sydonian Dunestriders (Merge Ironstrider/Dragoon units)
Ordo Reductor Celerii (Jump Pack Secutors)
Kataphracton Breachers (Give them a 12" move while at it)

Heavy Support:
Onager Siegecrawlers
Kataphracton Destroyers
Castellan Robot (Acts independently)

One could modify this list quite a bit. Other unit ideas include:
Electropriest Acolytes (Electrolytes? Ha!), veteran Skitarii, flyers/speeders, Servitors (like...*any* Servitors, at all), etc.

I like and agree with some of your stuff, especially the Techsorcist. But, I think some of these changes aren't really needed or make sense imo. I think it would just be better to move all units into one codex keeping their slot designation with the exception of the Ballistarii which should be fast. It would still leave a lot of room for other choices inside of a CAD, and having a CAD with so much diversity in the troop section would be quite interesting.

Would also like to see a dedicated Skitarii HQ. I would say there is still need of some transports and fliers in the group. Not to mention some actual tanks. In many ways 30k handles things better, but I think 40k should have it's own thing as well.

I am fine with datasmiths being attached to the robots, but I think they should also be a standalone HQ choice.

The priests either need to be better or their needs to be another choice or two for elites maybe both. There is room for more in fast and heavy spots as well.

I think it would be interesting to have a CAD for them with 2HQ slots, 4 elites, 8 troops, 3 fast, 4 heavy, 1LoW, 1 Fortification. More than the norm but it would make for a very interesting cad based army. The customization would be really quite good making it an attractive alternative. Especially with objective secured 1HQ and 2 troops would be the required. Or just a regular cad would work as well. both of these granting objective secured to troops and usual other cad benefits.

I would just straight up merge the two books, with each unit retaining it's rules as is right now and not "double dipping" in another's. The only real change is maybe move the battle servitors to Elites or Heavy Support, leaving Vanguards and Rangers as troops (because T5, 2 wound Plasma cannon wielding relentless troops is just...yeah).

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I would just straight up merge the two books, with each unit retaining it's rules as is right now and not "double dipping" in another's. The only real change is maybe move the battle servitors to Elites or Heavy Support, leaving Vanguards and Rangers as troops (because T5, 2 wound Plasma cannon wielding relentless troops is just...yeah).

I feel like combining them both as they are would be a little cumbersome. Especially the canticles and imperatives.keeping both in one book would seem very complicated to me. I could see them maybe keeping the skitarii and cult books independent as well as combinging them into an admech codex which would then have it's own rules. I would much rather have one set of buffs or rules for the whole army than to have to remember who is cult and who is skitarii in my new all Admech book.

Combine both Armies into one force.

My take:

No Force Org
Scyllax Guardian - 1 unit can be fielded per HQ choice as guards - would be easy enough to move to 40k

Enginseer - Can take 1 per vehicle model. Give vehicles bonuses and when attached to a squad gives the squad a free transport

HQ -
Tech Priest Prime(Magos) - Give special rules that fit the fluff
Tech Priest Dominus - Same as before
Tech Priest Reductor(Magos) - Give special rules that fit the fluff
Cybernetica Datasmith - Lowest level HQ - Gives squad bonuses and can join a Robots/Automata (regardless of weather they are MC's or not) and provide bonuses to them.

Elites
Electro-priest (Corpuscarii • Fulgurite)
Myrmidon (Destructor • Secutor) - would be easy enough to move to 40k
Skitarii (Infiltrator • Ruststalker)
Castellax Battle-Automata

Troops
Skitarii (Ranger • Vanguard)
Servitor / Tech Thralls

Fast
Thallax - would be easy enough to move to 40k
Sydonian Dragoon
Ironstrider Ballistarius
Chimera
Rhino
Avenger
Lightning

Heavy
Thanatar Class Siege-Automata/Cybernetica Datasmith - would be easy enough to move to 40k
Kastelan Robot /Cybernetica Datasmith
Land Raider
Onager Dunecrawler
Tarantula Gun Battery - would be easy enough to move to 40k

LOW
Imperial Knight Variants
Any Imperial Navy ships
Any Relic vehicles - must have an enginseer in the army to access.

Canticles of the Omnissiah (CotO): - Army Wide Rule
Doctrina Imperatives: - Same rules as before and can only be Enacted on one unit category per game turn
Tireless Advance - Army wide rule

I wouldnt be surprised if we see something similar to that in the next IA. Im not sure we'll see the automata, but Im sure hoping.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I would just straight up merge the two books, with each unit retaining it's rules as is right now and not "double dipping" in another's. The only real change is maybe move the battle servitors to Elites or Heavy Support, leaving Vanguards and Rangers as troops (because T5, 2 wound Plasma cannon wielding relentless troops is just...yeah).

And you pay a hefty price for that unit too. It would all boil down to what you need more, fast numerous bodies or slow killy small units. Both are actually quite good for the points. And in a CAD the multiple bodies with objective secured might be more advantageous for several situations.
I would say they could stay without posing a problem. Both would still be taken. Both would serve a purpose.

Combine both Armies into one force.

My take:

No Force Org
Scyllax Guardian - 1 unit can be fielded per HQ choice as guards - would be easy enough to move to 40k

Enginseer - Can take 1 per vehicle model. Give vehicles bonuses and when attached to a squad gives the squad a free transport

HQ -
Tech Priest Prime(Magos) - Give special rules that fit the fluff
Tech Priest Dominus - Same as before
Tech Priest Reductor(Magos) - Give special rules that fit the fluff
Cybernetica Datasmith - Lowest level HQ - Gives squad bonuses and can join a Robots/Automata (regardless of weather they are MC's or not) and provide bonuses to them.

Elites
Electro-priest (Corpuscarii • Fulgurite)
Myrmidon (Destructor • Secutor) - would be easy enough to move to 40k
Skitarii (Infiltrator • Ruststalker)
Castellax Battle-Automata

Troops
Skitarii (Ranger • Vanguard)
Servitor / Tech Thralls

Fast
Thallax - would be easy enough to move to 40k
Sydonian Dragoon
Ironstrider Ballistarius
Chimera
Rhino
Avenger
Lightning

Heavy
Thanatar Class Siege-Automata/Cybernetica Datasmith - would be easy enough to move to 40k
Kastelan Robot /Cybernetica Datasmith
Land Raider
Onager Dunecrawler
Tarantula Gun Battery - would be easy enough to move to 40k

LOW
Imperial Knight Variants
Any Imperial Navy ships
Any Relic vehicles - must have an enginseer in the army to access.

Canticles of the Omnissiah (CotO): - Army Wide Rule
Doctrina Imperatives: - Same rules as before and can only be Enacted on one unit category per game turn
Tireless Advance - Army wide rule

I like a lot of this. I think for Ad Mech it would be appropriate to have all Imperial Knights available as LoW rather than just variants like other IoM armies considering their relation to IK.

I guess you could fold certain units into other and make them different via wargear (really think it fine as is though in that respect imo).

Not sure how I feel about the change to canticles and Doctrina Imperatives. Think I would rather just keep those ruels as is with maybe a unit here and there having both (ideally a unit that is subpar like elctro priests).

Yes to army wide Tireless advance. But, what would you replace in the formation giving this.

I feel like combining them both as they are would be a little cumbersome. Especially the canticles and imperatives.keeping both in one book would seem very complicated to me. I could see them maybe keeping the skitarii and cult books independent as well as combinging them into an admech codex which would then have it's own rules. I would much rather have one set of buffs or rules for the whole army than to have to remember who is cult and who is skitarii in my new all Admech book.

Compared to rules and mechanics some other armies have I respectfully, but strongly disagree that it would be too complex. It would not be much different than a War Convocation which can be less complicated to about as complicated as the space marine doctrines. It certainly isn't as difficult to keep track of as certain other game mechanics, and all the units for each have a certain and distinctive look.

 NorseSig wrote:

Compared to rules and mechanics some other armies have I respectfully, but strongly disagree that it would be too complex. It would not be much different than a War Convocation which can be less complicated to about as complicated as the space marine doctrines. It certainly isn't as difficult to keep track of as certain other game mechanics, and all the units for each have a certain and distinctive look.

I just think it would be better if the buffs help the entire army synergize cohesively rather than having two separate sets of buffs that each apply to half of the army. The whole point to the War Convocation is that ALL the units count for canticles which makes canticles awesome because you can finally secure the top tier buffs for at least some time while still being able to field a fleshed out and differentiated force. Keeping canticles and imperative separate or the way they are now is boring and doesnt help the two forces to work together. It just lets you fit them both in one detachment. I would prefer something that is applicable to the entire army, not half and half.

Space marine doctrines are simple by comparison. They stay the same the entire game, apply to the majority of the army and in most cases are at most 2-3 general buffs. Canticles and imperatives are much more complicated by comparison. THey constantly change, have to be addressed at very specific times during the game, are limited to one use except when certain rules allow you to reuse them and only apply to specific units despite the fact that all the units are designed to work together. Not to mention that the buffs offered are extremely varied requiring strategic decision making and timing.

I can certainly respect disagreeing with combining imperatives and canticles, but I dont see how anyone could argue that they arent complicated when compared to the rules and buffs of other armies, especially when you are using them in conjunction with one another.

 Dramagod2 wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:

Compared to rules and mechanics some other armies have I respectfully, but strongly disagree that it would be too complex. It would not be much different than a War Convocation which can be less complicated to about as complicated as the space marine doctrines. It certainly isn't as difficult to keep track of as certain other game mechanics, and all the units for each have a certain and distinctive look.

I just think it would be better if the buffs help the entire army synergize cohesively rather than having two separate sets of buffs that each apply to half of the army. The whole point to the War Convocation is that ALL the units count for canticles which makes canticles awesome because you can finally secure the top tier buffs for at least some time while still being able to field a fleshed out and differentiated force. Keeping canticles and imperative separate or the way they are now is boring and doesnt help the two forces to work together. It just lets you fit them both in one detachment. I would prefer something that is applicable to the entire army, not half and half.

Space marine doctrines are simple by comparison. They stay the same the entire game, apply to the majority of the army and in most cases are at most 2-3 general buffs. Canticles and imperatives are much more complicated by comparison. THey constantly change, have to be addressed at very specific times during the game, are limited to one use except when certain rules allow you to reuse them and only apply to specific units despite the fact that all the units are designed to work together. Not to mention that the buffs offered are extremely varied requiring strategic decision making and timing.

I can certainly respect disagreeing with combining imperatives and canticles, but I dont see how anyone could argue that they arent complicated when compared to the rules and buffs of other armies, especially when you are using them in conjunction with one another.

I guess we could make it like the War convocation minus the free stuff. Ideally giving the troops objective secured.