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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/05 12:07:51
Subject: Re:President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
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Courageous Grand Master
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My thanks to people who provided detailed explanations.
So essentially, guns are like anything else in life - impossible to make 100% safe, which Obama probably knows.
So knowing that, he's not proposing these measure to score political points, is he?
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"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/05 12:12:04
Subject: President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
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Keeper of the Holy Orb of Antioch
avoiding the lorax on Crion
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This is too important to just sign on the line.
This is kind of issue you go to congress etc
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Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/05 12:16:09
Subject: President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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I think he is trying to score the political point that a lot of people want something done about gun violence and Congress doesn't want to do anything. Apart from the normal antipathy towards any form of gun control, the Republican majority has a tendency to oppose anything that Obama suggests.
I think he wants to try and open up a public debate that might put some pressure on Congress.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/05 12:16:34
Subject: President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
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Hangin' with Gork & Mork
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You could just say you want nothing to happen and you'd get the same effect.
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Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/05 12:16:43
Subject: Re:President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
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Fixture of Dakka
CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence
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Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:My thanks to people who provided detailed explanations. So essentially, guns are like anything else in life - impossible to make 100% safe, which Obama probably knows. So knowing that, he's not proposing these measure to score political points, is he? The biometric thing is meant to limit ownership. Once the tech is 'proven' the gun control folks will try to mandate all new guns include the feature. That will shut down several manufacturers, and delay production in others. And it will raise the cost of ownership which means less new buyers (and frankly that hurts the poor more so is a really gakky thing to do). The next step would be attempting to pass laws to mandate retrofitting guns with biometric devices, which has the effect of turning millions of currently law abiding gun owners into outlaws. Gun 'safety' and crime prevention do not figure into the equation at all.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/05 12:17:22
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/05 12:17:26
Subject: President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
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Courageous Grand Master
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jhe90 wrote:This is too important to just sign on the line.
This is kind of issue you go to congress etc
Having watched congressional and senate oversight committee hearings, my conclusion is this:
I wouldn't trust them to find a Catholic in the Vatican!
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"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/05 12:20:32
Subject: Re:President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:So essentially, guns are like anything else in life - impossible to make 100% safe, which Obama probably knows.
So knowing that, he's not proposing these measure to score political points, is he?
It is true that you can't make most things absolutely safe, but that doesn't mean efforts shouldn't be made to minimise the risk. It will be interesting to see how he proposes to invest money to improve safety features, both in manufacture and training. It's possible that he's doing this solely for political points scoring, but given the statements he's made after many of the mass murder events I consider it more likely that he actually believes in what he's proposing (the efficacy of what he's proposing is a different question).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/05 12:22:12
Subject: Re:President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
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Courageous Grand Master
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CptJake wrote: Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:My thanks to people who provided detailed explanations.
So essentially, guns are like anything else in life - impossible to make 100% safe, which Obama probably knows.
So knowing that, he's not proposing these measure to score political points, is he?
The biometric thing is meant to limit ownership. Once the tech is 'proven' the gun control folks will try to mandate all new guns include the feature. That will shut down several manufacturers, and delay production in others. And it will raise the cost of ownership which means less new buyers (and frankly that hurts the poor more so is a really gakky thing to do). The next step would be attempting to pass laws to mandate retrofitting guns with biometric devices, which has the effect of turning millions of currently law abiding gun owners into outlaws.
Gun 'safety' and crime prevention do not figure into the equation at all.
We've had our disagreements in recent days, but in the past, I have expressed astonishment about discovering that most American gun laws were for the purpose of preventing African-Americans from getting guns...
So, yeah, I'm inclined to agree with your point - safety is the last thing they're concerned about.
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"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/05 12:30:35
Subject: President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
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Fixture of Dakka
CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence
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I've owned or used several dozen different weapons in my life, and not one has fired without a finger pulling the trigger. I've seen arms rooms with a few hundred firearms, and not one ever fired without someone pulling the trigger. A gun as an object is as safe as a chainsaw as an object. Actually safer. I once burnt the crap out of my leg while walking with my not even running Stihl when the engine hit my leg. Never had that happen with a gun. If a manufacturer wants to make Super Safe Biometric Gun and attempt to get folks to buy them, I will applaud their efforts. The Federal gov't has NO business mandating it.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/05 12:31:47
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/05 12:36:42
Subject: Re:President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan
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Well, good news, they're not doing that!
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lord_blackfang wrote:Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote:The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/05 13:25:09
Subject: Re:President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
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Fixture of Dakka
CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence
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Read my previous post. Senator Markey has proposed legislation to do it. Some states have looked at it. New Jersey has laws for it. Now with POTUS pushing biometrics and similar tech to think he is doing so without thinking of the scenario in my previous point seems naive.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/05 14:35:13
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/05 13:57:58
Subject: President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Government had no problem issuing technical mandates for technologies that don't exist. Its a good way to eliminate industries you don't like.
Green house gas standards, CAFE standards, coal pollution standards and mandated scrubber technology. Its all about regulating something right out of existence via bureaucracy.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/05 14:03:52
Subject: Re:President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
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Fixture of Dakka
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The founding fathers could never have envisioned weapons capable of only firing when deactivated via biometric safety devices, therefore they should not be available to the public. Only LEO and military should have access to such advanced weaponry, let the general populace make do with old-fashioned tech like firing pin blocks or thumb safeties.
Sarcasm aside, the proposals aren't as harsh as I expected. I don't like them, but they aren't as extensive as I anticipated.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/05 14:07:22
"The Omnissiah is my Moderati" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/05 15:04:42
Subject: Re:President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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insaniak wrote: Grey Templar wrote:If the government(key word here) makes it a substantial burden to exercise a right they are infringing upon it. By mandating an expensive additional feature, they are infringing on your right to bear arms.
They're not mandating an expensive feature. They're mandating a feature.
Again, unless the government is regulating the price of that feature, it's entirely up to the companies selling that feature as to whether or not it's expensive.
Obama is asking the federal government to push for more biometric safeties on guns the government buys not guns sold to civilians. The Commerce Clause gives Congress the power to regulate interstate commerce not the President. Invoking the Commerce Clause to require all gun manufacturers to install biometric safeties would require an Act of Congress it couldn't be done via executive order. The executive order is for the DoD, Joint Chiefs etc the people who set the requirements for new firearms for the military and government agencies to push for biometric safeties which could push the technology because the government is the largest purchaser of firearms. However procurement is federal spending which requires an Act of Congress and I'm not sure that any open contracts put Putin Obamas lame duck year would have any real impact on the industry.
Biometric safeties really don't make sense for military use anyway. You don't want to lose access to weapons in a firefight because the one soldier who can use it gets wounded that would be counter productive. Most military weapons can't be sold to civilians either so having biometric safeties on them isn't going to reduce crime or prevent mass shootings.
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Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/05 15:06:41
Subject: Re:President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
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Courageous Grand Master
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Alex C wrote:The founding fathers could never have envisioned weapons capable of only firing when deactivated via biometric safety devices, therefore they should not be available to the public. Only LEO and military should have access to such advanced weaponry, let the general populace make do with old-fashioned tech like firing pin blocks or thumb safeties.
Sarcasm aside, the proposals aren't as harsh as I expected. I don't like them, but they aren't as extensive as I anticipated.
The founding fathers were wrong on a lot of things.
James Madison believed in the militias until the British army marched through the Maryland militia and burnt down his house in 1814
They also believed that Congress, and not the executive, would be the driving force in American politics, and it was for a while...
So yeah, they were only human.
But back to the topic on hand. I believe this could be a big issue in the forth coming presidential campaign, something that could polarise the nation.
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"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/05 15:22:17
Subject: President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
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Been Around the Block
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insaniak wrote: Grey Templar wrote:The cost would also be an infringement on the 2nd amendment. Adding hundreds of dollars onto the cost of each gun would effectively mean only rich people could exercise their 2nd amendment rights, same reason why mandating gun safes would also be a problem.
I don't see how that's an issue, unless the government is going to legislate how much such things should cost.
It's not an infringement of your rights if a company chooses to charge more for something that you can afford. That's just capitalism at work.
The infringement is requiring someone to purchase an item at market price in order to exercise a Constitutional right. It would be no different than requiring everyone to show up to their voting location in a hand-tailored suit. Automatically Appended Next Post: Prestor Jon wrote:
Biometric safeties really don't make sense for military use anyway. You don't want to lose access to weapons in a firefight because the one soldier who can use it gets wounded that would be counter productive. Most military weapons can't be sold to civilians either so having biometric safeties on them isn't going to reduce crime or prevent mass shootings.
Or the biometric safety gaks the bed at the worst possible moment.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/05 15:27:07
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/05 15:28:05
Subject: President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
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Fixture of Dakka
CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence
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I don't think it polarizes the nation, that is already the case. What it does is allows politicians to take advantage of the polarization.
Side 1: Those violent ignorant folks refuse to accept common sense gun control measures that will save countless children!
Side 2: Those evil gun grabbers want to disarm law abiding citizens, haven't you read Give a Mouse a Cookie!
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Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/05 15:28:49
Subject: Re:President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Alex C wrote:The founding fathers could never have envisioned weapons capable of only firing when deactivated via biometric safety devices, therefore they should not be available to the public. Only LEO and military should have access to such advanced weaponry, let the general populace make do with old-fashioned tech like firing pin blocks or thumb safeties.
Sarcasm aside, the proposals aren't as harsh as I expected. I don't like them, but they aren't as extensive as I anticipated.
The founding fathers were wrong on a lot of things.
James Madison believed in the militias until the British army marched through the Maryland militia and burnt down his house in 1814
They also believed that Congress, and not the executive, would be the driving force in American politics, and it was for a while...
So yeah, they were only human.
But back to the topic on hand. I believe this could be a big issue in the forth coming presidential campaign, something that could polarise the nation.
Every election issue polarizes the nation that's why they're election issues.
In regards to guns playing a major role in this year's election it would require a lot of media driven hype and extra attention because guns are a very low priority for most people. The most recent Gallup poll on important issues facing the US had only 2% of respondents being concerned with guns.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/1675/most-important-problem.aspx
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Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/05 15:38:45
Subject: President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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jwr wrote: insaniak wrote: Grey Templar wrote:The cost would also be an infringement on the 2nd amendment. Adding hundreds of dollars onto the cost of each gun would effectively mean only rich people could exercise their 2nd amendment rights, same reason why mandating gun safes would also be a problem.
I don't see how that's an issue, unless the government is going to legislate how much such things should cost.
It's not an infringement of your rights if a company chooses to charge more for something that you can afford. That's just capitalism at work.
The infringement is requiring someone to purchase an item at market price in order to exercise a Constitutional right. It would be no different than requiring everyone to show up to their voting location in a hand-tailored suit.
It's a "cheaper" law, but still seems a bit relevant to the discussion:
Unless I'm mixing stuff up, there are some areas that require that all guns sold have a gun lock. Manufacturers are just throwing a lock in each box now to cover that, but that's a legislation that makes guns more expensive and it's been upheld I think. Now I know that there is just a bit of a price difference between a cheap cable lock and biometric security devices, but the effect of "raise prices" is the same.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/05 15:40:10
Subject: Re:President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
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Courageous Grand Master
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In the past, D's and R's were a lot more co-operative on issues, there wasn't the same level of partisanship as there is today.
it would require a lot of media driven hype
Like I said, it's an election year
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"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/05 15:40:43
Subject: President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
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Fixture of Dakka
CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence
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The lock is not an integral part of the gun, and in fact in my case for example, never gets taken out of the bag it came in. I don't need that lock for the gun to function.
That is a difference that would be noticed by the courts.
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Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/05 15:41:53
Subject: President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
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Courageous Grand Master
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CptJake wrote:I don't think it polarizes the nation, that is already the case. What it does is allows politicians to take advantage of the polarization.
Side 1: Those violent ignorant folks refuse to accept common sense gun control measures that will save countless children!
Side 2: Those evil gun grabbers want to disarm law abiding citizens, haven't you read Give a Mouse a Cookie!
It's a shame, because whilst everybody is distracted by the 2nd amendment, nobody seems to notice that the 4th has more or less disappeared.
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"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/05 15:45:18
Subject: President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
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Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions
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d-usa wrote:Smartphones somehow managed to avoid sky high prices despite the addition of biometric scanners.
Smartphones being an electronic device that already has a screen for where the finger may be placed to read, a battery, hardware, etc. all ready to go and it just needs the software? In other words radically different to how a firearm operates, especially when you then factor in the effects of recoil on an electronic system.
Then we have the problems of amalgamating the electronic components with the mechanical device
Given that there is little superfluous space in pistols where do you place the biometric device?
Rather it is a solution in search of a problem. Sometimes more complex technology is not always the answer
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:My thanks to people who provided detailed explanations.
So essentially, guns are like anything else in life - impossible to make 100% safe, which Obama probably knows.
So knowing that, he's not proposing these measure to score political points, is he?
Perish the thought....
Alex C wrote:The founding fathers could never have envisioned weapons capable of only firing when deactivated via biometric safety devices, therefore they should not be available to the public. Only LEO and military should have access to such advanced weaponry, let the general populace make do with old-fashioned tech like firing pin blocks or thumb safeties.
Sarcasm aside, the proposals aren't as harsh as I expected. I don't like them, but they aren't as extensive as I anticipated.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/05 15:47:39
Subject: President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
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Fixture of Dakka
CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence
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Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: CptJake wrote:I don't think it polarizes the nation, that is already the case. What it does is allows politicians to take advantage of the polarization.
Side 1: Those violent ignorant folks refuse to accept common sense gun control measures that will save countless children!
Side 2: Those evil gun grabbers want to disarm law abiding citizens, haven't you read Give a Mouse a Cookie!
It's a shame, because whilst everybody is distracted by the 2nd amendment, nobody seems to notice that the 4th has more or less disappeared.
I'm a big fan of protecting the 4th. You can find topics on Dakka where I was against things like drug testing welfare/aid recipients because I think it violates the 4th amendment. Warrantless searches and data retention piss me off as well. There is a lot of lazy police work being enabled by folks being willing to give up 4th amendment rights.
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Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/05 15:53:16
Subject: President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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CptJake wrote:The lock is not an integral part of the gun, and in fact in my case for example, never gets taken out of the bag it came in. I don't need that lock for the gun to function. That is a difference that would be noticed by the courts. But it HAS to be included with the purchase of the gun and affects the price of it, which would be noticed by the courts as well. If you cannot purchase a gun without X, then it likely does not matter if it is attached to the gun itself or not. Do we know today what the actual text says? I know we knew the "spirit" of the proposed order, but not the meat of it.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/05 15:53:52
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/05 16:20:50
Subject: Re:President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
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Most Glorious Grey Seer
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Kilkrazy wrote:As for the biometric or other ID feature, I'm not sure what problem it is intended to solve.
In theory it would have prevented the Sandy Hook shootings, since the kid who did the shooting stole the guns from his mother (who he also killed).
I say theory because I don't see a feasable, working biometric system up and running yet.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/05 16:25:32
Subject: Re:President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Breotan wrote: Kilkrazy wrote:As for the biometric or other ID feature, I'm not sure what problem it is intended to solve.
In theory it would have prevented the Sandy Hook shootings, since the kid who did the shooting stole the guns from his mother (who he also killed).
I say theory because I don't see a feasable, working biometric system up and running yet.
They have also shot together at the range in the past, so he would have likely been programmed as an acceptable fingerprint into whatever hypothetical system might have existed. I doubt his mom would have activated and deactivated his fingerprint every time they went to the range.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/05 16:47:27
Subject: Re:President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
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Most Glorious Grey Seer
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d-usa wrote: Breotan wrote: Kilkrazy wrote:As for the biometric or other ID feature, I'm not sure what problem it is intended to solve.
In theory it would have prevented the Sandy Hook shootings, since the kid who did the shooting stole the guns from his mother (who he also killed).
I say theory because I don't see a feasable, working biometric system up and running yet.
They have also shot together at the range in the past, so he would have likely been programmed as an acceptable fingerprint into whatever hypothetical system might have existed. I doubt his mom would have activated and deactivated his fingerprint every time they went to the range.
Given his mental issues and the fact that she knew about them, she may very well have. We'll never know.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/05 16:58:57
Subject: Re:President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
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Fixture of Dakka
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Watching his speech now.
It's painful.
You can't just buy a gun on the internet with no background check
Can gun control supporters not just take the short amount of time required to actually learn how the process currently works?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/05 16:59:45
"The Omnissiah is my Moderati" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/05 17:04:36
Subject: Re:President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Alex C wrote:Watching his speech now.
It's painful.
You can't just buy a gun on the internet with no background check
Can gun control supporters not just take the short amount of time required to actually learn how the process currently works?
Can we stop pretending that Craigslist, forums, and other means of communication on the internet don't exist and that people aren't using them?
So yes, you can just buy a gun on the Internet without a background check.
Now, will any rules stop people from just selling privately via those means and have any means of enforcement? Probably not, but that doesn't mean that we should pretend that it isn't happening.
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