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2016/01/05 01:12:52
Subject: President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control (text of proposal on pg5)
... and it's the opposite of the proposed Assault Weapons Ban - it's almost all really reasonable stuff, I think. We touched on this very briefly in a locked thread but now there is some tantalizing meat on them bones.
The article is fairly long and wanders a bit into background so I'm only posting the salient first half; obviously you can read the link.
Obama takes executive action on gun restrictions By David Nakamura and Juliet Eilperin January 4 at 6:31 PM
The Obama administration on Monday unveiled a series of new executive actions aimed at reducing gun violence and making some political headway on one of the most frustrating policy areas of President Obama’s tenure.
The package, which Obama plans to announce Tuesday, includes 10 separate provisions, White House officials said. One key provision would require more gun sellers — especially those who do business on the Internet and at gun shows — to be licensed and would force them to conduct background checks on potential buyers. Obama would devote more federal funds to treating mental illness — a move that could require congressional approval — and require that firearms lost in transit between a manufacturer and seller be reported to federal authorities.
Under the president’s proposal, the FBI will hire more than 230 examiners and other personnel to help process new background checks, and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has established a new investigation center to keep track of illegal gun trafficking online and will devote $4 million and additional personnel to enhance the National Integrated Ballistics Information Network.
Even before its official unveiling Tuesday morning, Republicans in Congress and on the campaign trail have blasted the idea, and some advocates have threatened to challenge it in court. While it is modest compared to any legislation that Congress could adopt, it will still affect everything from how the federal government might leverage its purchasing power to advance “safe gun” technology to what information federal and local law enforcement will share on individuals who are illegally trying to purchase weapons.
The president, who went over the initiatives in the Oval Office on Monday with administration officials such as Attorney General Loretta E. Lynch and FBI Director James B. Comey, said inaction by Congress in the wake of several high-profile mass shootings and other gun-related violence justified his decision.
“It is my strong belief that for us to get our complete arms around the problem, Congress must act,” Obama said in brief remarks to reporters after the meeting. In lieu of that, he added, the actions he will announce “are well within my legal authority in the executive branch but also are ones that the overwhelming majority of the American people, including gun owners, support and believe in.”
One of the main provisions is new federal guidance requiring some occasional gun sellers to get licenses from the ATF and conduct background checks on potential buyers. Rather than set a single threshold for what triggers this licensing requirement, it will be based on a mix of business activities such as whether the seller processes credit cards, rents tables at gun shows and has formal business cards.
Other aspects of the president’s plan aim to bolster the FBI’s background checks system, including a push by the U.S. Digital Service to modernize its processing operations and a proposal to add 200 new ATF agents and investigators to bolster enforcement.
Obama will instruct federal agencies, which collectively represent the nation’s largest firearms purchaser to “explore potential ways” to promote technology that would prevent the accidental discharge or unauthorized use of a gun, according to White House officials.
Another measure will require federally licensed gun dealers to report any lost and stolen guns to the National Crime Information Center. Over the past five years, according to the White House, an average of 1,333 guns recovered in criminal investigations each year were traced back to a seller that claimed the weapon was missing but did not report it to authorities.
“This is a broad set of actions that tackles a variety of the issues related to gun violence,” said Arkadi Gerney, a senior fellow at the liberal think tank Center for American Progress, “and in combination it represents a comprehensive effort to strengthen the laws we already have on the books.”
House Speaker Paul D. Ryan (R-Wis.), by contrast, issued a statement Monday saying that even without knowing the plan’s details, “the president is at minimum subverting the legislative branch, and potentially overturning its will. . . . This is a dangerous level of executive overreach, and the country will not stand for it.”...
I'll have to see the actual proposal which comes out tomorrow but I'm cautiously optimistic. This all seems fairly reasonable.
Lets try and have a useful discussion, if possible without name-calling, or rehashing the exact same arguments over and over again - I feel like at least some of you will see some good stuff in here, like mental health assistance, and better (faster) background checks, and manufacturers being required to report firearms that got lost in shipping, which holy gak, they apparently weren't required to already for some reason, and so on.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/05 18:44:04
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2016/01/05 01:18:03
Subject: President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
My guess is it will be blatantly unconstitutional on one ground or another.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Relapse wrote: I will say it's a reasonable expectation for anyone to report lost weapons.
I see no reason it wouldn't be, though I am not sure how that will do anything to reduce crime. It would only do good if there was a substantial number of stolen guns getting checked by authorities, those guns not getting flagged because they were not reported stolen, and then later the gun is used in a crime.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ouze wrote: Honestly my mind is sort of blown that it isn't, especially when it's a manufacturer to seller!
It is a little surprising from a business standpoint. Guns aren't inexpensive items, so any loss to theft has to be pretty substantial. So you think businesses would be reporting it just for their bottom line.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/05 01:23:31
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
I can't imagine insurance paying out when no police report is filed... but I'm speculating on that. I don't know the mechanics. Perhaps the thrust is that it now has to be reported at the federal level.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/05 01:25:42
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2016/01/05 01:25:29
Subject: Re:President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
The package, which Obama plans to announce Tuesday, includes 10 separate provisions, White House officials said. One key provision would require more gun sellers — especially those who do business on the Internet and at gun shows — to be licensed and would force them to conduct background checks on potential buyers.
It's comforting to know that our President is sufficiently familiar with the law to recognize that this provision is already on the books.
As for a provision for reporting stolen guns, we will have to see how it looks when it's complete. I wouldn't put it past this administration to sneak a legal version of "blame the victim" in there (i.e., charging victims of theft with improperly securing a firearm or something like that).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/05 01:30:16
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
It would be tough to prove theft without a police report or some other kind of official 3rd party proof.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Ouze wrote: I can't imagine insurance paying out when no police report is filed... but I'm speculating on that. I don't know the mechanics. Perhaps the thrust is that it now has to be reported at the federal level.
If you think about, say Joe Blow is out shooting somewhere in the back countryand loses his pistol, as happened to someone I know who slid down a hill and lost his pistol in the snow. I would think that should be reported, also.
2016/01/05 01:42:14
Subject: President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
Grey Templar wrote: I see no reason it wouldn't be, though I am not sure how that will do anything to reduce crime. It would only do good if there was a substantial number of stolen guns getting checked by authorities, those guns not getting flagged because they were not reported stolen, and then later the gun is used in a crime..
I would guess that it's intended more to discourage licensed dealers from sidestepping background checks by selling under the table and then later claiming that the gun was stolen if the weapon turns up somewhere it shouldn't be.
2016/01/05 01:43:09
Subject: President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
Grey Templar wrote: I see no reason it wouldn't be, though I am not sure how that will do anything to reduce crime. It would only do good if there was a substantial number of stolen guns getting checked by authorities, those guns not getting flagged because they were not reported stolen, and then later the gun is used in a crime.
Over the past five years, according to the White House, an average of 1,333 guns recovered in criminal investigations each year were traced back to a seller that claimed the weapon was missing but did not report it to authorities.
I'd say that counts as a "substantial number".
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2016/01/05 01:46:50
Subject: President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
Promote technology to prevent accidental discharge and unauthorized use of firearms... Are we going to see DNA scanners on our guns now? Sci Fi no more?
H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
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Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
Frazzled- I don't generally call anyone by a term other than "sir" "maam" "youn g lady" "young man" or " HEY bag!"
Ruin- It's official, we've ran out of things to talk about on Dakka. Close the site. We're done.
mrhappyface- "They're more what you'd call guidlines than actual rules" - Captain Roboute Barbosa
Steve steveson- To be clear, I'd sell you all out for a bottle of scotch and a mid priced hooker.
2016/01/05 01:51:12
Subject: President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
Tactical_Spam wrote: Promote technology to prevent accidental discharge and unauthorized use of firearms... Are we going to see DNA scanners on our guns now? Sci Fi no more?
Guns with that technology exist, but I know nothing about the reliability or cost of the tech. One obvious application would be for police forces as it would prevent their weapons being used against themselves in a struggle.
2016/01/05 01:52:55
Subject: President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
Tactical_Spam wrote: Promote technology to prevent accidental discharge and unauthorized use of firearms... Are we going to see DNA scanners on our guns now? Sci Fi no more?
Guns with that technology exist, but I know nothing about the reliability or cost of the tech. One obvious application would be for police forces as it would prevent their weapons being used against themselves in a struggle.
All we need is Salvester Stallone to join the police forceand we can start up a real life Judge Dredd. Thanks Obama!
H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
koooaei- Emperor: I envy your nipplehorns. <Magnus goes red. Permanently>
Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
Frazzled- I don't generally call anyone by a term other than "sir" "maam" "youn g lady" "young man" or " HEY bag!"
Ruin- It's official, we've ran out of things to talk about on Dakka. Close the site. We're done.
mrhappyface- "They're more what you'd call guidlines than actual rules" - Captain Roboute Barbosa
Steve steveson- To be clear, I'd sell you all out for a bottle of scotch and a mid priced hooker.
2016/01/05 01:55:43
Subject: President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
Tactical_Spam wrote: Promote technology to prevent accidental discharge and unauthorized use of firearms... Are we going to see DNA scanners on our guns now? Sci Fi no more?
Dread comes to mind, heh.
As for 'accidental discharge' I still can't get behind that as a reason for the government to get involved - anyone who's been trained in the use of a weapon doesn't have 'accidental discharges'.
Edit: Read also, 'People who pay attention when involving themselves in the operation and maintenance thereof.'.
Additionally, what constitutes an 'unauthorized use' of a firearm?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/05 01:56:34
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2016/01/05 01:56:09
Subject: President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
Tactical_Spam wrote: Promote technology to prevent accidental discharge and unauthorized use of firearms... Are we going to see DNA scanners on our guns now? Sci Fi no more?
I think the basics of biometrics are there, they just need to get better.
Touching my thumb to the home button on my phone unlocks it now, and it wouldn't exactly be futuristic to imagine similar technology on a weapon. Now, I sometimes have to lift my finger a couple times to get it to register fight, which obviously wouldn't be acceptable on a firearm IMO, so it still needs some work.
2016/01/05 01:56:46
Subject: President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
Tactical_Spam wrote: Promote technology to prevent accidental discharge and unauthorized use of firearms... Are we going to see DNA scanners on our guns now? Sci Fi no more?
Guns with that technology exist, but I know nothing about the reliability or cost of the tech. One obvious application would be for police forces as it would prevent their weapons being used against themselves in a struggle.
IIRC, they tend to be on the expensive side for "add-on" mods, and generally, the only firearms that I saw that came with some form of DNA/Fingerprint thing on it, wasn't one I'd be interested in in the first place.
2016/01/05 01:57:14
Subject: President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
Tactical_Spam wrote: Promote technology to prevent accidental discharge and unauthorized use of firearms... Are we going to see DNA scanners on our guns now? Sci Fi no more?
Let LEO test the technology first before it's forced on everyone else. After all, they're the ones constantly shooting themselves / each other / innocent people negligently.
Tactical_Spam wrote: Promote technology to prevent accidental discharge and unauthorized use of firearms... Are we going to see DNA scanners on our guns now? Sci Fi no more?
Guns with that technology exist, but I know nothing about the reliability or cost of the tech. One obvious application would be for police forces as it would prevent their weapons being used against themselves in a struggle.
IIRC, they tend to be on the expensive side for "add-on" mods, and generally, the only firearms that I saw that came with some form of DNA/Fingerprint thing on it, wasn't one I'd be interested in in the first place.
I wonder if you could have some sort of grip that could sense when a small hand of a toddler or child is holding it.
2016/01/05 02:05:07
Subject: President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
Frankenberry wrote: As for 'accidental discharge' I still can't get behind that as a reason for the government to get involved - anyone who's been trained in the use of a weapon doesn't have 'accidental discharges'.
Sure they do. Most modern militaries spend a lot of time and resources ensuring that "ammunition incidents" * are minimized, but they still occur.
(* we have to call them ammunition incidents now as "accidental discharge" implies that nobody is at fault whilst "negligent discharge" assumes somebody is at fault)
2016/01/05 02:13:04
Subject: President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
Frankenberry wrote: As for 'accidental discharge' I still can't get behind that as a reason for the government to get involved - anyone who's been trained in the use of a weapon doesn't have 'accidental discharges'.
Sure they do. Most modern militaries spend a lot of time and resources ensuring that "ammunition incidents" * are minimized, but they still occur.
(* we have to call them ammunition incidents now as "accidental discharge" implies that nobody is at fault whilst "negligent discharge" assumes somebody is at fault)
So it's a mind set of blaming the system and not the person. It's actually a good concept that I've seen work extremely well in manufacturing.
2016/01/05 02:28:40
Subject: President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
Grey Templar wrote: I see no reason it wouldn't be, though I am not sure how that will do anything to reduce crime. It would only do good if there was a substantial number of stolen guns getting checked by authorities, those guns not getting flagged because they were not reported stolen, and then later the gun is used in a crime.
Over the past five years, according to the White House, an average of 1,333 guns recovered in criminal investigations each year were traced back to a seller that claimed the weapon was missing but did not report it to authorities.
I'd say that counts as a "substantial number".
Maybe when viewed in a vacuum it's a big number compared to zero. In the context of the number of guns sold in the US annually it's a tiny fraction. Over 185,000 NICS checks were run on Black Friday alone this year. Given the number of guns bought the fact that 1300 went missing isn't surprising. We agree that a smaller number of missing guns would be better but let's keep things in proper perspective.
Grey Templar wrote: I see no reason it wouldn't be, though I am not sure how that will do anything to reduce crime. It would only do good if there was a substantial number of stolen guns getting checked by authorities, those guns not getting flagged because they were not reported stolen, and then later the gun is used in a crime.
Over the past five years, according to the White House, an average of 1,333 guns recovered in criminal investigations each year were traced back to a seller that claimed the weapon was missing but did not report it to authorities.
I'd say that counts as a "substantial number".
Maybe when viewed in a vacuum it's a big number compared to zero. In the context of the number of guns sold in the US annually it's a tiny fraction. Over 185,000 NICS checks were run on Black Friday alone this year. Given the number of guns bought the fact that 1300 went missing isn't surprising. We agree that a smaller number of missing guns would be better but let's keep things in proper perspective.
Six Sigma the crap out of the system!
2016/01/05 02:32:45
Subject: President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
Frankenberry wrote: My point isn't that accidents don't happen, it's that people who know how to respect and use firearms don't let this kind of stuff happen..
So... your point isn't that accidents don't happen, it's that accidents don't happen...?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Prestor Jon wrote: Maybe when viewed in a vacuum it's a big number compared to zero. .
Which makes it a big number.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/05 02:33:17
2016/01/05 02:35:45
Subject: President Obama outlines executive orders for gun control
Frankenberry wrote: My point isn't that accidents don't happen, it's that people who know how to respect and use firearms don't let this kind of stuff happen..
So... your point isn't that accidents don't happen, it's that accidents don't happen...?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Prestor Jon wrote: Maybe when viewed in a vacuum it's a big number compared to zero. .
Which makes it a big number.
It doesn't make a number of firearms that plays anywhere near a factor significant to require new Federal laws or that will have a dramatic effect on reducing gun crimes and deaths.
bag!"
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