Is Eternal Warrior outdated?

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**vipoid**

HoundsofDemos wrote:
unless you get rid of instant death, getting rid of EW would require a lot of HQs to have significant price drops. What is the main critique of almost every tooled up HQ or combat beast. It's usually that they are to fragile because they can be doubled out by a powerfist

But then, a lot of HQs can either take PFs or equivalents themselves (and hence ID other HQs), or else kill sergeants and such before they get to swing.

And, once again I bring you back to stuff like DE HQs - which can already be IDed by a Power Maul. So, in terms of your HQ being IDed by a melee weapon, all I can say is 'join the club'.

**ALEXisAWESOME**

Eternal Warrior is an important rule, but it's important to look at it's origin. Eternal Warrior was originally a Phoenix Lord rule, because in the fluff, that's just what they were. A Phoenix Lord *cannot* be utterly destroyed, they are fated to be there in the last batte agaiinst Chaos. But on the other hand, they didn't want to explain why a Melta Shot glances off him but the intention is still there. The idea is that when something that would disintegrate the character comes his way something gets in the way to prevent it from utterly destroying him. Maybe it glances him, knocks him unconcious, blows a hole in the ground he could fall into, whatever, all that matters if for the sake of the fluff that character cannot die. Yes it's plot armour, but it's an important part of the game setting, at least in the Phoenix Lords case.

On the other hand I do agree with your point that it is weirdly distributed and some times used as nothing more than a game mechanic. For example The Sanguinor having it and Dante not, or Lysander only having it because his theme was a Tanky Character. But the rule should not disappear, it just has to be applied better. And it should always remain with the Phoenix Lords.

**EDIT** And you *KNOW* the Dark Eldar dex has bad HQ's. I know it as well, we have tax HQ's and no fun special characters anymore. But it's not fair to compare other armies HQ's to ours when GW so obviously did ours wrong. If we complain about our HQ's then we are basically calling for other armies to be brought down to a similar level, something i would not wish on anyone because our HQ's simply aren't fun.

**Martel732**

Yarium wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Actually the spacing and base size for scatbikes is what makes the TFC not so hot against them.
Really, honestly not trying to sound mean here; what did what I said have to do with scatbikes and Thunderfire Cannons? I'm not seeing the connection, but maybe I missed something.

Just pointing out some of the things that the TWC should be good against, it isn't.

**A Town Called Malus**

vipoid wrote:
Luke_Prowler wrote:

I do take the risk, because at the end of the day I usually do like to play a foot slogging mega warboss or SAG big mek, but at the end of the day I still feel like i'm paying more for a risky unit vs someone who's playing less without that risk

A few points on this note:

I think some cheap support HQs (CCS, Ethereal) aren't too bad, because they're at least fragile and useless in combat. I mean, even at the back of the field, a CCS is still a unit of 5 T3 models - one barrage weapon or a few Scatter Laser shots and the squad is gone.

However, then you have stuff like Jetbike Farseers and Tau Commanders. The former is an absurdly cheap and mobile Lv3 psyker, with built-in protection from Perils, an optional reroll, and access to the best psychic lores in the game (including the obscene Eldar one). The Tau Commander is stupidly durable for his cost and can either buff his unit with rerolls to-hit and Ignore Cover, or just shoot units to death himself.

Well, the Tau commander is only stupidly durable when you spend the points on it, otherwise he's just 4 T4 wounds with a 3+, who will therefore be instantly taken out by a krak missile.

This is one of the problems that Farsight has, he is only T4 with a 3+/4++, so every other krak missile to the face will kill him, on average.

You can make him into a tank, but you do have to pay for it. A commander with Iridium armour, stims and a shield generator (so the tankiest build possible) costs 150 points and doesn't even have a gun or any unit support capabilities yet. If we add in the upgrades required for full buffmander build (drone controller, CnC, M3S, PEN) then he's now 208 points and still has no weapon.

**Slayer-Fan123**

To be fair, lots of people argue Farsight should have EW because of his sword and whatnot.

**Dozer Blades**

It's not like GW is handing out EW like candy.

**Bobthehero**

There's still too much of it.

**A Town Called Malus**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
To be fair, lots of people argue Farsight should have EW because of his sword and whatnot.

Yup but whilst he and other unique characters are left vulnerable to Instant Death, the Space Marines get a chapter relic that grants a 3++ invulnerable save, Adamantium Will and Eternal Warrior. So many of the unique, legendary characters of the 40k background who have survived countless campaigns and battles end up being easier to kill than some random space marine captain/chapter master.

**krodarklorr**

Dozer Blades wrote:
It's not like GW is handing out EW like candy.

They are if you play a Marine army.

While my Imotekh sits there and dies from a Helbrute in CC....

**Slayer-Fan123**

If Imotekh gets caught in battle with a Helbrute and LOSES, that's bad luck. They hit 4+, wound 2+, have to get through a 4+ and THEN a 5+. That's about a 14% of each attack getting through, and Helbrutes have TWO attacks!

**vipoid**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
If Imotekh gets caught in battle with a Helbrute and LOSES, that's bad luck. They hit 4+, wound 2+, have to get through a 4+ and THEN a 5+. That's about a 14% of each attack getting through, and Helbrutes have TWO attacks!

7

Yet a 14% chance to kill a SM character with a Storm Shield would be totally unfair. Because reasons.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Vipoid, I get the butthurt about Dark Eldar, but you have to remember it's a terribly written codex in the first place.

It is the ID mechanic that is outdated, not EW.

**Kanluwen**

A Town Called Malus wrote:

Well, the Tau commander is only stupidly durable when you spend the points on it, otherwise he's just 4 T4 wounds with a 3+, who will therefore be instantly taken out by a krak missile.

He's 4 T4 wounds with a 3+, that can be placed into a Crisis Bodyguard Team where he passes "Look Out, Sir!" automatically for 64 points(for two bodyguards).

This is one of the problems that Farsight has, he is only T4 with a 3+/4++, so every other krak missile to the face will kill him, on average.

Oh no, an independent character is squishy by themselves!
Seriously? That's your complaint?

Sure, he's squishy by himself--but remember that he can be placed into a Crisis Bodyguard Team of up to 8 models where he automatically passes "Look Out, Sir!". That is huuuuuuuuuuuuge.

You can make him into a tank, but you do have to pay for it. A commander with Iridium armour, stims and a shield generator (so the tankiest build possible) costs 150 points and doesn't even have a gun or any unit support capabilities yet. If we add in the upgrades required for full buffmander build (drone controller, CnC, M3S, PEN) then he's now 208 points and still has no weapon.

There is no other army in the game where you can spend anywhere near that number of points on a character to make them anywhere near have such great synergy...where they will have no weapon of their own.

Really not sure what your point was here. To make an effective character that isn't just an HQ tax for a CAD, you're generally going to have to spend points.

**vipoid**

Also, even just Iridium Armour makes him a T5 model with a 2+ save and 4 wounds. Considering he can also jump back behind cover after shooting, how much more protection does he need?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Vipoid, I get the butthurt about Dark Eldar

Feel free to bugger off.

**Furyou Miko**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Furyou Miko wrote:

A Daemon should have Eternal Warrior because it can just rebuild its body from the mist you just turned it into. The Mantle of Ophelia should grant Eternal Warrior because it carries with it the spirit of a saint who survived Chaos Champions, artillery barrages, heavy weapons fire, and then was killed by a lasgun.

So... what you're saying is that models with the mantle of ophelia should suffer Instant Death against any unsaved wounds caused by lasguns?

lol, not needed, given she's T3 with only 3 wounds, and you can field twenty lasguns for her points.

**Camundongo**

ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Eternal Warrior is an important rule, but it's important to look at it's origin. Eternal Warrior was originally a Phoenix Lord rule, because in the fluff, that's just what they were. A Phoenix Lord *cannot* be utterly destroyed, they are fated to be there in the last batte agaiinst Chaos. But on the other hand, they didn't want to explain why a Melta Shot glances off him but the intention is still there. The idea is that when something that would disintegrate the character comes his way something gets in the way to prevent it from utterly destroying him. Maybe it glances him, knocks him unconcious, blows a hole in the ground he could fall into, whatever, all that matters if for the sake of the fluff that character cannot die. Yes it's plot armour, but it's an important part of the game setting, at least in the Phoenix Lords case.

On the other hand I do agree with your point that it is weirdly distributed and some times used as nothing more than a game mechanic. For example The Sanguinor having it and Dante not, or Lysander only having it because his theme was a Tanky Character. But the rule should not disappear, it just has to be applied better. And it should always remain with the Phoenix Lords.

**EDIT** And you *KNOW* the Dark Eldar dex has bad HQ's. I know it as well, we have tax HQ's and no fun special characters anymore. But it's not fair to compare other armies HQ's to ours when GW so obviously did ours wrong. If we complain about our HQ's then we are basically calling for other armies to be brought down to a similar level, something i would not wish on anyone because our HQ's simply aren't fun.

In the 3.5 CSM codex you could also buy the same ability via a daemonic rune for a character (well, at least against attacks that had a S value that was double or more their toughness), on the basis that they were marked by the dark gods themselves for greatness, and therefore hard to kill unless the ruinous powers decided otherwise...

**Bobthehero**

Luke_Prowler wrote:
Let's play "spot the imperial guard players". I imagine it's a lot easier to want the ability to kill tough enemies with ease when you pay little for your own HQs, and can take the highest quantity of high strength weapons.

Shittiest HQ 2k16, they get instant-deathed by litteraly everything people spam nowadays, have no way whatsoever to get EW or decent invulnerable, there's a reason they're cheap.

As for high strenght weapon, noone cares about them nowadays, the real deal is high amount of shots with mid strenght weapons, something the IG fails at, having large blast beign actually a threat to stuff again would be nice.

**Dozer Blades**

The Wyvern is pretty darn good IMO.

**Bobthehero**

At killing hordes of weak stuff, its not going to do much on bigger targets. And the heavy stuff might take a wound of an MC or something big, but then that's it, blasts aren't much of a threat.

**Dozer Blades**

So it's looking like mostly DE and IG are hating on EW. The Phoenix Lords are balls.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Dozer Blades wrote:
So it's looking like mostly DE and IG are hating on EW. The Phoenix Lords are balls.

Daemons also hate EW. But mainly because we use to have it, and it got despicably torn away from us :C

(my bloodcrusher is sitting in a corner weeping about the days that use to be)

**Dozer Blades**

Daemons can easily cast Endurance so No.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Dozer Blades wrote:
Daemons can easily cast Endurance so No.

Not when you're Khorne.

(bloodcrusher continually weeps)

**Dozer Blades**

There's always the option not to play pure Khorne.

**A Town Called Malus**

Dozer Blades wrote:
There's always the option not to play pure Khorne.

But then you are punishing players for their choice of a playstyle that should be viable, from a fluff perspective.

**Quickjager**

I've always advocated for Eternal Warrior to be more accessible. In a game like 40k where you are at the whims of RNG, a little bit of insurance for your favorite unit should be available, I mean look at all the units that are avoided because they get doubled out so easily.

**HoundsofDemos**

I agree, make it so that every codex has a way for it be purchased, it's odd that some books allow it for points and others don't

**notredameguy10**

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I agree, make it so that every codex has a way for it be purchased, it's odd that some books allow it for points and others don't

Well there are some HQ that it just makes sense that have eternal warrior; Kaldor Draigo comes to mind. He is supposed to wonder the warp slaying demons for eternity and every once in a while comes back to reality to help, so giving him eternal warrior makes perfect sense fluff wise. But there are other HQ that have it whom really shouldn't

**deviantduck**

I miss when the tallest unit on the table was a dreadnought. Most of the complaints in this thread seem to be coming from people who think wraithknights shouldn't be killed by anything. In the fluff, Angron takes a lascanon to his bare chest and ignores it. These are the kinds of things EW is there to represent.

**Peregrine**

deviantduck wrote:
In the fluff, Angron takes a lascanon to his bare chest and ignores it.

This is stupid fluff that has no place in the game.