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I just got done reading through IA:13, and every unit in that book counts as a member of the Chaos Space Marine Faction. If I'm not mistaken, that means you can take, say, two Dreadclaws for some Meltacide-ing Chosen (4 Meltas with Cypher's formation), or a Kharybdis Assault Claw to Alpha Strike a Helbrute in and give the rest of your units ample time to smash into the foe (a Kharybdis and Dread are hardly something you can ignore). Or, if you don't think tha tthey can be run in the main detachment, you can do 95-pt. unit tax and use the transports form IA:13. Am I missing something here?

EDIT: Meant to say Dreadclaw, not Assault Claw.

That's a real bunch of points and cash you are going to invest into something that isn't really going to pay off.
Even if you get things there, it's just either killed what, 1 tank or something?Or it's not there. Or there is no real targets for it. Or just died on the spot.

Not to mention IA is not really that common thing to have.

Simple. It's not in the Chaos Space Marine codex. Shouldn't have to buy another book when options should be in the original codex.

Also Forge World is not legal. (Kidding there before some people their knickers in a knot.)

Most people are referring to the main CSM book. Chaos can prop itself up with forgeworld and allies but that doesn't address that the core codex lacks options.

CSM doesn't have any delivery methods. Forgeworld has delivery methods and getting the rules and models from them is more arduous and expensive then normal GW products.

Also the Dreadclaw is not a great delivery system because of how many points they cost. 100 pts per unit that only half of which show up turn 1, doesn't even let them disembark on the turn they arrive, and can still mishap poorly (unlike actual drop pods) is not a great transport.

 dusara217 wrote:
I just got done reading through IA:13, and every unit in that book counts as a member of the Chaos Space Marine Faction. If I'm not mistaken, that means you can take, say, two Dreadclaws for some Meltacide-ing Chosen (4 Meltas with Cypher's formation), or a Kharybdis Assault Claw to Alpha Strike a Helbrute in and give the rest of your units ample time to smash into the foe (a Kharybdis and Dread are hardly something you can ignore). Or, if you don't think tha tthey can be run in the main detachment, you can do 95-pt. unit tax and use the transports form IA:13. Am I missing something here?

Because I shouldn't be forced to fork over nearly $200+ between exchange rate + shipping + tariffs just to get more rules that many players will refuse to play against because Forgeworld is still a dirty word.

Because the Chaos Marine codex should be able to stand on its own two feet, instead of being the perennial 'have-not' MEQ codex just to keep Loyalist scum happy that they're better than their favourite punching bag.

Dread claws are much weaker than the drop pod and not even in the main rule book, despite drop pods being the main way the legions did battle.

We have the worst land raider variant.

We lack razorbacks.

We don't have a lot of accurate deepstrike. Not outside of allies or fortifications anyone can take.

Simple Answer? Cost. Both points and wallet.

IA13 is vastly superior to the CSM codex on so many levels that playing CSM with is its more or less just playing a forgeworld list with handicaps. While adding things like dread claws can make a list more viable, I'm still dropping $85USD ($230 for Kharybdis) before shipping and customs for something that is going to be used to transport something that may just DS off the table.

If I'm dropping that chunk of change on something, I rather get a lord of skulls, or a couple heldrakes, or really anything that looks cool and is just fun to paint since it's probably gonna just sit on a shelf forever anyway. Like everything from the CSM codex.

 dusara217 wrote:
or a Kharybdis Assault Claw to Alpha Strike a Helbrute in

So you're going to put your expensive walker in a transport that has a 1 in 6 chance of just straight up eating it, no saves allowed?

You go in the pod. Pod goes in the water. You go in the water. Daemon's in the water. Our daemon. Well fairwell and adieu to you fair Spanish ladies...

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
or a Kharybdis Assault Claw to Alpha Strike a Helbrute in

So you're going to put your expensive walker in a transport that has a 1 in 6 chance of just straight up eating it, no saves allowed?

You go in the pod. Pod goes in the water. You go in the water. Daemon's in the water. Our daemon. Well fairwell and adieu to you fair Spanish ladies...

Meant to say Dreadclaw, which is more of a flying rhino that can DS turn 1 than a legit drop pod.

Cost is a pathetic argument. If you can afford 40k, you can afford Forge World. You just have to be a little bit patient.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Cost is a pathetic argument. If you can afford 40k, you can afford Forge World.

But why should I have to? There are armies that have all the necessary options in their Codex and models for them available from GW. If I want AA (beyond the defense line gun) or flyers for my SoB I'll have to ally in another army or spend hard cash on Forgeworld. Sure, I could do it - but it does seem unfair to me that I have to spend much more money to shore up weaknesses than someone who picks up the Eldar/Tau/SM/Necron Codex.

Imperial Armour Aeronautica 30£, Avenger Strike Fighters for 90£ apiece. Armies with plastic GW flyers have the rules in the Codex and pay about 40£ for a kit.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Cost is a pathetic argument. If you can afford 40k, you can afford Forge World. You just have to be a little bit patient.

Cost is a completely fair argument for us discount warriors.

A dreadclaw is a drop pod, for 3x the price and without mishap protection.

Doesn't seem so good to me.

 CrownAxe wrote:
Also the Dreadclaw is not a great delivery system because of how many points they cost. 100 pts per unit that only half of which show up turn 1, doesn't even let them disembark on the turn they arrive, and can still mishap poorly (unlike actual drop pods) is not a great transport.

Why can't they disembark on the turn they arrive? The only restriction I can see is that they can't assault.

 dusara217 wrote:
I just got done reading through IA:13, and every unit in that book counts as a member of the Chaos Space Marine Faction. If I'm not mistaken, that means you can take, say, two Dreadclaws for some Meltacide-ing Chosen (4 Meltas with Cypher's formation), or a Kharybdis Assault Claw to Alpha Strike a Helbrute in and give the rest of your units ample time to smash into the foe (a Kharybdis and Dread are hardly something you can ignore). Or, if you don't think tha tthey can be run in the main detachment, you can do 95-pt. unit tax and use the transports form IA:13. Am I missing something here?

EDIT: Meant to say Dreadclaw, not Assault Claw.

Using your examples, a Dreadclaw is something like 100 points with mishaps, a drop pod is 35. Our Helbrutes cost the same (I think) as our Loyalist counterparts, but 2 A less.

Using 2x4 Chosen in 2 Dreadclaws is the equivalent to 130 points more, and I might mishap. Helbrute in a Dreadclaw? Why would we? We can take the Mayhem Pack to begin with, giving them IWND and Deep Strike, though the enemy will just pick them apart one by one, though it can be fun.

We do have better Rhinos mind. Daemonic possession, havok launchers, dirge casters... But we don't get the Rhino for free.

And let's be honest, Gladius Strike Force is what we don't have. I played against one at 1650pt (tourney list, so expecting it). It had roughly 350 points of transports for free. I had a 1650pt CSM army, he had a 2000pt SM army. I'm not wailing against my opponent, I wouldn't expect anything less from a tourney list - CSMs are the handicapped ones. Which is why I'm switching to 30k as I'm now 0/1/16 in W/D/L over the past months against good lists.

We have delivery methods, just that they are more expensive. Way more expensive.

To the detractors of the Dreadclaw, remember that it is a flyer with hover and assault vehicle. It is a very good tool for Chaos Marines to use. After deep striking in a safe place, take a turn of shooting with jink then move up and assault your target the next turn.

 Intercessor wrote:
To the detractors of the Dreadclaw, remember that it is a flyer with hover and assault vehicle. It is a very good tool for Chaos Marines to use. After deep striking in a safe place, take a turn of shooting with jink then move up and assault your target the next turn.

Exactly. We want a delivery method, not necessarily all the other stuff.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Cost is a pathetic argument. If you can afford 40k, you can afford Forge World.

But why should I have to? There are armies that have all the necessary options in their Codex and models for them available from GW. If I want AA (beyond the defense line gun) or flyers for my SoB I'll have to ally in another army or spend hard cash on Forgeworld. Sure, I could do it - but it does seem unfair to me that I have to spend much more money to shore up weaknesses than someone who picks up the Eldar/Tau/SM/Necron Codex.

Imperial Armour Aeronautica 30£, Avenger Strike Fighters for 90£ apiece. Armies with plastic GW flyers have the rules in the Codex and pay about 40£ for a kit.

Have to? You don't have to do anything. It's a luxury hobby.

It's a slow luxury hobby, at that! It's not like you can buy a kit, five minutes later you're playing with it, and voila, instant gratification.

Don't try to pull that 'woe is me, I'm a Sisters player, GW hates us' crap, either - I'm a Sisters player. I'm a broke Sisters player who can't buy any models at all at the moment.

We have it easier than some armies, even, like Chaos - at least the Repressor and the Avenger are super-easy conversions from Razorbacks and Dark Talons. We may as well have them plastic from GW anyway!

The fact is this: If you are solvent enough to play Warhammer 40,000, you are solvent enough to play Warhammer 40,000 with Forge World. One month extra saving is not going to kill you, and if you needed that money for other things, you wouldn't be playing 40k in the first place.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
or a Kharybdis Assault Claw to Alpha Strike a Helbrute in

So you're going to put your expensive walker in a transport that has a 1 in 6 chance of just straight up eating it, no saves allowed?

You go in the pod. Pod goes in the water. You go in the water. Daemon's in the water. Our daemon. Well fairwell and adieu to you fair Spanish ladies...

Meant to say Dreadclaw, which is more of a flying rhino that can DS turn 1 than a legit drop pod.

Which will also eat your Helbrute albeit for less pts.

I love how they apparently felt removing the drop pod's inertial guidance and making it cost 3x as much wasn't sufficient. No, they couldn't resist adding one extra kick in the nuts by making it eat your own guys. Because Chaos! feth you! What's this? I'm deep striking? Turn 1? Is this the real life? Am I still playing Chaos here? Oops, it ate my warlord! Yeah that's more like it.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Cost is a pathetic argument. If you can afford 40k, you can afford Forge World.

But why should I have to? There are armies that have all the necessary options in their Codex and models for them available from GW. If I want AA (beyond the defense line gun) or flyers for my SoB I'll have to ally in another army or spend hard cash on Forgeworld. Sure, I could do it - but it does seem unfair to me that I have to spend much more money to shore up weaknesses than someone who picks up the Eldar/Tau/SM/Necron Codex.

Imperial Armour Aeronautica 30£, Avenger Strike Fighters for 90£ apiece. Armies with plastic GW flyers have the rules in the Codex and pay about 40£ for a kit.

Have to? You don't have to do anything. It's a luxury hobby.

It's a slow luxury hobby, at that! It's not like you can buy a kit, five minutes later you're playing with it, and voila, instant gratification.

Don't try to pull that 'woe is me, I'm a Sisters player, GW hates us' crap, either - I'm a Sisters player. I'm a broke Sisters player who can't buy any models at all at the moment.

We have it easier than some armies, even, like Chaos - at least the Repressor and the Avenger are super-easy conversions from Razorbacks and Dark Talons. We may as well have them plastic from GW anyway!

The fact is this: If you are solvent enough to play Warhammer 40,000, you are solvent enough to play Warhammer 40,000 with Forge World. One month extra saving is not going to kill you, and if you needed that money for other things, you wouldn't be playing 40k in the first place.

We already have to fork over the "Chaos Tax" just to build our basic army.

Forgeworld may be easily accessible in Europe, especially if you already live in the UK. Not all of us do however, and there's no way in hell I'm forking over what could easily be half of an entirely new army just for the book itself, let alone then forking over even more for models that are nothing more than 'Loyalist -10' versions in every way.

I'll gladly drop $200 on my Chaos armies sure. But for stuff that I actually think looks good and will enjoy building/painting. I'm not spending that on a damn book just because GW can't be arsed to give Chaos the same treatment that Loyalists get.

csm like orks live for cc, unlike the orks who have open topped on all the things (or assault vehicle, except for that accursed gorkanaut/morkanaut) for an absolutely bottom barrel price. the chaos marines have only the khrybdis, the dreadclaw assuming it lives long enough, and raiders.

their hopelessly immobile over their normal marine counterparts who have things like the storm raven and the stormwolf, and let us not forget the razorback and drop pod.

you pale next to even dark angels whom by comparison move at warp speed

Experiment 626 wrote:
We already have to fork over the "Chaos Tax" just to build our basic army.

Victimising bull. What's the "Chaos Tax"? I mean, really. What is it? I see it moaned about all the time, but everybody else clearly knows exactly what it is, so its never explained.

Forgeworld may be easily accessible in Europe, especially if you already live in the UK. Not all of us do however, and there's no way in hell I'm forking over what could easily be half of an entirely new army just for the book itself, let alone then forking over even more for models that are nothing more than 'Loyalist -10' versions in every way.

Pure hyperbole on the prices, unless you somehow get a massive discount on your standard models.

I'll gladly drop $200 on my Chaos armies sure. But for stuff that I actually think looks good and will enjoy building/painting. I'm not spending that on a damn book just because GW can't be arsed to give Chaos the same treatment that Loyalists get.

Then play loyalists and paint them black and spiky, if the loyalists are so much better anyway.

Chaos players have to buy Imperial kits because laughably, our own kits tend to be missing half or more of our possible options and/or the existing kit is unusable...

You want 4x Autocannon Havocs?
Well, you can either buy four $50 sets and thus be forced to fork over $200 for just the 4 guys you want, OR, you can buy 2 Loyalist Devatator kits and convert them from the Heavy bolters, while also getting your Missile launchers + Lascannons in plastic instead of Finecrap.

You want Termiecide?
Enjoy your kit that includes just 1 combi-melta/flamer (and is entirely missing the combi-plasma!), or buy 3 Termie Lords for a 'cheap' $30/model unit. Or else buy Imperial bitz and convert.
Hell, even functional Terminator squads are better off bought using Imperial kits and then slapping a bunch of Chaos icons onto them, simply because our own kit is missing so many basic options!

You want Chosen?
Sorry, those don't exist yet. Enjoy buying a basic Chaos Marine kit and then adding on something like Sternguard/Vanguard to get access to almost every single one of your unit's actual options!

You want your Hellbrute to have a Heavy flamer (or two)?
Yep, buy Imperial, because GW conveniently "forgot" to give us that option, despite a brand new kit that finally replaced the old early 90's clunker.

This is the "Chaos Tax". We have to routinely supplement large swaths of our model line with Imperial stuff and/or go through Forgeworld, because GW refuses to treat us as equals when compared to our 'perfect' Imperial overlords.



As for Forgeworld prices outside of the UK... You still have to pay their factored exchange rate.
Then there's general shipping charges.
There's also tariffs and import charges, of which different countries have different rates.

It was great when the GW stores at least carried the Imperial Armour books in-store, as we could just pay the basic price of the book itself and skip out on the added charges, which could easily balloon to double the price of the book itself! (at the time, I was paying roughly $90-110 per book)
Now though, since they've stopped that, Forgeworld has gone back to being nothing more than a pure 'perk', which for many people becomes a choice between starting/expanding an army, or else just having a shiny book.

Besides, I need enough books as it is, and for their cost, I don't want to be lugging my FW books about for fear that careless/less respectful individuals will damage them. (I've had enough damage done to my basic codices thank-you very much! )

I have an army list that features a Spartan, land raider and at least one Dreadclaw. It works very well. There is a KDK component which has the dogstar and synergizes well.

As someone who gets 25 percent off at his FLGS, buys off ebay or takes advantage off amazons random discounts, Forge world is something that would not only cost a lot more than a standard model due to conversion rate, but shipping it to the US is also far more expensive. As an American standard citadel miniatures and forgeworld are not comparative in price.

Second, Chaos space marines are a book that should be able to stand up on it's own two feet with out crutches. I love forgeworld on the table top but once you get to the point where two or three books are not a choice to play something cool but a bare minimum to be competitive, something is wrong.

You go in the pod. Pod goes in the water. You go in the water. Daemon's in the water. Our daemon. Well fairwell and adieu to you fair Spanish ladies...

Eldar Frigate slammed two torpedoes into our side, Chief. We was comin' back from the planet of Cadia to the Eye... just delivered the Gate. The Warp Gate. Eleven hundred marines went into the void. Cruiser went down in 12 minutes. Didn't see the first Eldar for about a half an hour. Pheonix. Thirteen hundred footer. You know... you know that when you're in the void, chief? You tell by lookin' from the nose to the tail. Well, we didn't know... 'cause our mission had been so secret, no distress signal had been sent, huh. Abaddon didn't even list us overdue for a week. Very first light, chief. The Corsairs come cruisin'.

Chaos pay for their delivery, but codex marines get free postage and packaging!

They are viable but of course you know about leading a horse to the water...

Okay, let's make something clear. When people say CSM don't have delivery, they are actually saying CSM don't have delivery that's worth bringing.

Dreadclaws are glorified drop pods without internal guidance system for which you pay a premium price (trice the cost of a regular droppod). Khabrys are even worse in that respect since there's quite literally nothing in the CSM codex worth putting in there while they cost you about a land raider's worth of points. The only redeeming quality it has is that formation that allows its berserkers to charge on the turn it arrives.