Why do people say CSM have no delivery methods?

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**Slayer le boucher**

Experiment 626 wrote:
Slayer le boucher wrote:
Dozer Blades wrote:
Look at the KDK codex which incorporates CSM and daemons into one book. It's totally cool IMO and also has been proven as viable. I think it's okay to say you only want to use one codex but not right to say it's wrong for others to use more than one - which can be a way to design a really cool army... Not just something simply built to win games.

I don't think that KDK should be a good example.

I love the book and the way it plays, but it does nothing to correct the glaring defaults of CSM, it just add a nice army wide mechanic, that is both fluff and usefull, and gives Deamons in the book Fearless, other then that, KDK takes out a lot of stuff.

The units limitation i can see why for some, for some others i don't but hey, but there is a lot of stuff that got lost in the process, for no good reasons, Chaos Boons, its argueable if it is a lose or not, Chaos Rewards for Deamons, so that we end up to be the only codex that half of our HQ's as actually less options then a Sergent..., no Dirgecasters, in a book where it would be mighty usefull..., unclear rule about summoned FMC, no reworks for the Blood Crushers or Zerkers, NO NEW KDK ONLY UNIT, Zerkers on Juggers?, nope, somekind of super elite Zerker/Khorne's chosen unit?, go feth yourself, on the 8 formations we have, 2 are "good" the rest is just a joke and our only SHW cost 888pts for something that is just a bit better then a Knight( and then again i'm not so sure about this).

Only redeeming of KDK is BftBG rule, wich makes it fluffy and kinda forces the players to play aggressive..., wich is fluffy.

Stop talking sense man! We've got the Gorepack which is sooooooo OP!! And we can still spam Heldrakes, and of course, every list ever throws Be'lakor in there to auto-cast Invis every single turn on our super cheesy Str.D Bloodthirster!

Those poor little Loyalist players are totally forced to go with a boring cookie-cutter build to even stand an outside chance of staying up there with our amazing Daemonkin rules!

You know thats exactly what my opponent told me last night?, and the worst part is that he's not even trolling, he really believe that KDK is amonsgt the best codexes with Eldar, Tau and Crons...

And thats coming from a guy that plays Eldar bikespam and knights and 8 Drop pods Salamenders list.

Each time i've got commentaries like " of course, i knew it would go down like this" when i killed 2 guys in CC or succeded on a FnP roll...

In his opinion Hounds are waaaay OP and we CSM players should stop complain about that we don't have Legion rules, when we can simply use HH lists..., this resulted in a Headache driven argument for a good half-hour, this guy is so dense that he could sink a submarine...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dozer Blades wrote:

Currently I only use Berserkers which are really good. They are like gods now.
.

Dunno if you're trolling or not...

**Yoyoyo**

Slayer le boucher wrote:
You know thats exactly what my opponent told me last night?, and the worst part is that he's not even trolling, he really believe that KDK is amonsgt the best codexes with Eldar, Tau and Crons...

There was a KDK player who defeated a lot of power lists at NOVA.

http://www.spikeybits.com/2015/09/khorne-places-5th-daemonkin-nova-battle-reps.html

Just FYI.

**Experiment 626**

Yoyoyo wrote:
Slayer le boucher wrote:
You know thats exactly what my opponent told me last night?, and the worst part is that he's not even trolling, he really believe that KDK is amonsgt the best codexes with Eldar, Tau and Crons...
There was a KDK player who defeated a lot of power lists at NOVA.

http://www.spikeybits.com/2015/09/khorne-places-5th-daemonkin-nova-battle-reps.html

Just FYI.

And yet his list sounded like it was the staple competitive cookie-cutter that pretty much every KDK list is; D-Thirster + min Slaughter Cult + Grinder + as many Gore Packs as pts allow.
The only big, glaring no-show was no Be'lakor for guaranteed Invis to really OP the 'Thirster.

Yes the Daemonkin book is fun, but the only real reason it holds up competitively is because the Gorepack formation made an already undercosted unit (Flesh Hounds) even better, and the D-Thirster & Soul Grinder are among the top units from the Daemon codex itself that get to trade Daemonic Instability for the Fearless. (which is an outright massive buff for those specific units!)
You dial back on the Gorepack(s), and take an HQ other than the D-Thirster, and suddenly the power level of the book vastly decreases.

It's still a very fun army to play, but against the other 7.5 books it's still pretty much shoehorned into running its 'top level filth' just to keep pace, in the same way that the other early 7th & remaining 6th ed codices are forced to.

**Slayer le boucher**

Yoyoyo wrote:
Slayer le boucher wrote:
You know thats exactly what my opponent told me last night?, and the worst part is that he's not even trolling, he really believe that KDK is amonsgt the best codexes with Eldar, Tau and Crons...
There was a KDK player who defeated a lot of power lists at NOVA.

http://www.spikeybits.com/2015/09/khorne-places-5th-daemonkin-nova-battle-reps.html

Just FYI.

So one guy had a mix of tactical genius and luck on his rolls in some of the most important games, and suddenly the Codex is fething OP and anybody can do the same?...

He placed 5th, congrats, it really warms my Khorne Worshipper heart, but that doesn't proof or disproof that the codex is not addresing CSM glaring issues.

KDK shouldn't be the answer all and get all answer or solution, because personnaly i'm sick of hearing guys telling me" stop complaining you guys have KDK", yeah because thats mighty relevant when a guy still waits for rules to play Alpha Legion or Word Bearers...

**Yoyoyo**

Experiment 626 wrote:
It's still a very fun army to play, but against the other 7.5 books it's still pretty much shoehorned into running its 'top level filth' just to keep pace, in the same way that the other early 7th & remaining 6th ed codices are forced to.

No argument there, but to play devil's advocate many tournament players will simply spam their "top level filth" no matter what the codex is. Min-maxed lists are usually a race to the bottom as far as diversity goes.

Slayer le boucher wrote:
So one guy had a mix of tactical genius and luck on his rolls in some of the most important games, and suddenly the Codex is fething OP and anybody can do the same?...

Obviously not.

**Konrax**

How about for 5 points more compared to a juggernaught you can get a thunderwolves with an additional +1 strength, and the complete lack of 2+ saves for lords aside from terminator armour (which then kills mobility completely) both of which are available in the space wolves codex, oh and a 3+ invuln on a storm shield... So for around the same points as a wolf lord on thunder wolf we get -1 strength, -1 save, -1 invuln... Yeah sounds about right for Chaos.

**Experiment 626**

Yoyoyo wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
It's still a very fun army to play, but against the other 7.5 books it's still pretty much shoehorned into running its 'top level filth' just to keep pace, in the same way that the other early 7th & remaining 6th ed codices are forced to.

No argument there, but to play devil's advocate many tournament players will simply spam their "top level filth" no matter what the codex is. Min-maxed lists are usually a race to the bottom as far as diversity goes.

Great. So what about all of us lowly plebs who don't care for, or want anything to do with hyper-competitive Tournament play?

Even Daemons are becoming rather gimped when not running our filthiest filth.

**Dozer Blades**

I am 2-0 today with my Chaos army just taking down an invisible WolfStar in the second round.

**HoundsofDemos**

I'm curious what your list is and what mission it was. Congrats on the win, but many of the so called Chaos Space marine lists i've seen win are Belakor, two units of cultists and heavy on allies.

**Experiment 626**

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I'm curious what your list is and what mission it was. Congrats on the win, but many of the so called Chaos Space marine lists i've seen win are Belakor, two units of cultists and heavy on allies.

Eh. Nurgle Bikers, Spawn & Oblits with the minimum Troops tax on Cultists (if needed) or MSU Plagumarines in Rhinos, and led by either a flying Nurgle Mace Prince or MoN Bike Lord w/PF+L.claw or the rarer AoBF Jugger Lord still does decently in Maelstrom based events.

Really, we should just re-name our codex to "Codex: Nurgle + Friends", because there's nothing that's remotely actual Chaos Marines that's even playable outside of MoN... Tzeentch is about as terrible as it gets nowadays in 40k!

**Dozer Blades**

Here is my Chaos army list I ran today at a 2250 point unbound tournament -

Chaos Typhon
Lascannon sponsons - Armored ceramite - 1st War of Armageddon legacy

Kytan

Belakor

11x Pink Horror

20x Flesh Hound (KDK)

Chaos Lord (KDK)
Juggernaut - Power Fist - Goredrinker - Sigil of Corruption

Herald (KDK)
Juggernaught - Hellblade - Lesser Loci

Chaos Sorcerer (CSM)
Level 3 - Bike - Melta bombs - Force axe

I won all three games handily with this list. I never had any problems getting into close combat with this army and shooting was very strong as well.

**Experiment 626**

Dozer Blades wrote:
Here is my Chaos army list I ran today at a 2250 point unbound tournament -

Chaos Typhon
Lascannon sponsons - Armored ceramite - 1st War of Armageddon legacy

Kytan

Belakor

11x Pink Horror

20x Flesh Hound (KDK)

Chaos Lord (KDK)
Juggernaut - Power Fist - Goredrinker - Sigil of Corruption

Herald (KDK)
Juggernaught - Hellblade - Lesser Loci

Chaos Sorcerer (CSM)
Level 3 - Bike - Melta bombs - Force axe

I won all three games handily with this list. I never had any problems getting into close combat with this army and shooting was very strong as well.

Having a single actual Codex: CSM model is the point people are trying to make about why CSM's suck so badly... Literally *any* other Chaos list is leagues better than any option you'll find within the actual codex!

Shockingly, most Chaos fans just want to be able to play their favourite Legion/theme from within mostly the CSM codex itself. Unfortunately, unless you like a handful of Nurgle options, there's no point in ever taking anything bar Sorcerers from our actual codex.

**Slayer le boucher**

Dozer Blades wrote:
Here is my Chaos army list I ran today at a 2250 point unbound tournament -

Chaos Typhon
Lascannon sponsons - Armored ceramite - 1st War of Armageddon legacy

Kytan

Belakor

11x Pink Horror

20x Flesh Hound (KDK)

Chaos Lord (KDK)
Juggernaut - Power Fist - Goredrinker - Sigil of Corruption

Herald (KDK)
Juggernaught - Hellblade - Lesser Loci

Chaos Sorcerer (CSM)
Level 3 - Bike - Melta bombs - Force axe

I won all three games handily with this list. I never had any problems getting into close combat with this army and shooting was very strong as well.

You've been telling that CSM doesn't have a problem and that they can win using their codex, and the list you show us as units from 6 differents sources...

So you're just giving proof that people are right, you cannot win by taking a Pure CSM army only from the CSM codex...

**Dozer Blades**

Whatever I work with what's available. But go ahead and keep complaining when there's actually lots of great units to choose from when designing a list. IoM does it all the time.

**dusara217**

Dozer Blades wrote:
Whatever I work with what's available. But go ahead and keep complaining when there's actually lots of great units to choose from when designing a list. IoM does it all the time.

You prove yourself wrong and then use a lame copout

**Korinov**

Claims the current CSM codex is good enough -> plays with unbound list with one single unit from the CSM codex.

**HoundsofDemos**

Dozer Blades wrote:
Here is my Chaos army list I ran today at a 2250 point unbound tournament -

Chaos Typhon
Lascannon sponsons - Armored ceramite - 1st War of Armageddon legacy

Kytan

Belakor

11x Pink Horror

20x Flesh Hound (KDK)

Chaos Lord (KDK)
Juggernaut - Power Fist - Goredrinker - Sigil of Corruption

Herald (KDK)
Juggernaught - Hellblade - Lesser Loci

Chaos Sorcerer (CSM)
Level 3 - Bike - Melta bombs - Force axe

I won all three games handily with this list. I never had any problems getting into close combat with this army and shooting was very strong as well.

This isn't a chaos space marine list. YOu have one HQ unit from the codex. This is the point were trying to make, that all the so called lists that are winning are either chaos super friends or codex nurgle

**Dozer Blades**

My point is you can win with what you've got rather than lamenting on the state of the CSM codex.

**Slayer-Fan123**

You can't just grab a Sorcerer and then make that statement. Everything else is either Daemonkin or Daemons (Belakor can just be easily said to have been pulled from Daemons). If anything you could substitute the Sorcerer with Heralds and have the same exact outcome. Nobody is buying your argument.

**Dozer Blades**

It's not an argument. It is what it is. Chaos has strong units to choose from so focus on those.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Except I can get the same results, and arguably better, since a Herald could grab a Grimoire.

**HoundsofDemos**

Dozer Blades wrote:
It's not an argument. It is what it is. Chaos has strong units to choose from so focus on those.

Yes Chaos demons and KDK can be mixed and matched to make a strong list. What this thread is about and what I truly feel bad for is chaos marine players who actually want to play actual chaos space marines, IE actual power armor/ terminator armor guys. Right now that is a tough list to field effectively and that is a dam shame.

**autumnlotus**

With this logic why not just go Unbound space marines and deep strike daemons on the other side of the board? It's space marines right? Never mind the question specifies CSM in name

**Experiment 626**

Dozer Blades wrote:
It's not an argument. It is what it is. Chaos has strong units to choose from so focus on those.

Except that a goodly number of people want to play Chaos SPACE MARINES.
And right now you can play anything but, simply because we've been left to rot with 3rd edition models & options at overcosted 4th edition pricing, while trying to still play basic Rhino Rush like it's 5th edition!

Mark of Nurgle on a handful of units makes them decent, though still behind the power curve of most other equivalents. Unfortunately, the vast majority of Chaos Marine players don't want to play Nurgle Super Friends.

But apparently as long as YOU are happy, that's perfectly fine and the rest of us just need to grow up and apparently L2P/Git Gud...

Sorry, but I'm a Tzeentch girl. I want to play with actual Chaos Marines & Termies & Possessed & 1ksons. Unfortunately they all suck hardcore in the current game, and I'm better off leaving them to collect yet more dust and just play my Daemons instead.

no other army has to deal with this kind of BS

But we all know that Chaos don't deserve nice things.

**Slayer-Fan123**

To be fair, Nurgle is cooler and Tzeentch is his enemy SOOOOOOO...

**Formosa**

In plain English, people want to play vanilla chaos and be able to stand up to elderp, noobcrons and spesh mureens, and of course the fish cows, not much to ask is it.

**War Kitten**

Well. This thread does serve to make me feel bad for playing Eldar and Marines.

**Raichase**

War Kitten wrote:
Well. This thread does serve to make me feel bad for playing Eldar and Marines.

Our new post-heresy tactics are to guilt our opponents into conceding right before they make the killing blow, because we guilt them to death. I'm big on an unmarked havoc squad with four guilt-cannons, although the Termicide combi-guilt squad gets some mileage in my army too.

**Dozer Blades**

Well the thing is there are excellent delivery systems and that's what this discussion is about not the power level of CSM as a whole. I consider Black Legion, KDK, Daemons and CSM all part of the same family. You used to be able to take daemons straight out of the codex.

**Unit1126PLL**

It's funny that people are like "Man, imperials have the tools for everything!"

"SOB don't get grav!"

"OH, shut up, just ally grav!"

[MEANWHILE]

"Man, chaos doesn't have the tools for anything."

"Daemons do, just ally daemons."

"I WANT TO PLAY MONO-DEX!"