Why do people say CSM have no delivery methods?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Dozer Blades**

So boring in my opinion.

**CrownAxe**

Dozer Blades wrote:
So boring in my opinion.

Totally, but drop pods are actually good as opposed to dreadclaws

**Dozer Blades**

It's obvious you are trolling.

**Unit1126PLL**

Slayer le boucher wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Man, all these people that want to play legions should just use a 30k list.

Legion specific rules, no Daemons unless they're included in your legion specific rules, standard legion organization, the works. Drop pods, even!

If you want to play a legion, use the Legion list.

If you want to play the fragmented, disconcerted, and unravelled mess of a legion that is the 40k Chaos Space Marines, then I'm sorry, but your warband probably needs allies.

Fortunately, everywhere I've played allows 30k vs 40k.

Not the first time i've heard this, and while i do like the traitement FW gave fotr Legions, they are SPACE MARINES LEGIONS rules and lists, not CHAOS SPACE MARINES LEGIONS.

We want to play the Legions how they currently are, not how they where 10kyears ago.

3.5 dex delivered this and we where happy, so its not impossible to do, just that the Studio lacks any guy that is a CSM fan, because lets be honest here, each codex is made by guys that play, or like the said army/race to begin with, the latest guys who where CSM players at GW studio did leave the boat a decade ago.

You know that the Horus Heresy is divided into Loyalist SPACE MARINES LEGIONS [sic] and Traitor SPACE MARINES LEGIONS [sic] legions, right? Or do you just like the word Chaos?

Also, there are no Legions in 40k. That's the point - they've shattered into a million warring splinters. Even the almost-all-together ones like the Iron Warriors routinely destroy eachother. The Legions are shattered in 40k - they're gone.

**dusara217**

Slayer le boucher wrote:
Dozer Blades wrote:
So it's okay for IoM to ally but not Chaos? That's a silly attitude at best. Eldar ally with DE and Harlequins. It's the game now.

WHat you don't seem to understand is that Imperial factions CAN ally, but they DON'T NEED them to work.

Two words: Blood Angels

**CrownAxe**

Dozer Blades wrote:
It's obvious you are trolling.

I don't see why that is. Last time i checked a drop pod that cost 3x as much and lost inertial guidance isn't as good as a normal drop pod even if it can move

**koooaei**

dusara217 wrote:
Slayer le boucher wrote:
Dozer Blades wrote:
So it's okay for IoM to ally but not Chaos? That's a silly attitude at best. Eldar ally with DE and Harlequins. It's the game now.

WHat you don't seem to understand is that Imperial factions CAN ally, but they DON'T NEED them to work.

Two words: Blood Angels

Mechanicus that creates 90%+ of imperial transports but apparently doesn't have them in the dex.

**Slayer-Fan123**

CrownAxe wrote:
Dozer Blades wrote:
It's obvious you are trolling.

I don't see why that is. Last time i checked a drop pod that cost 3x as much and lost inertial guidance isn't as good as a normal drop pod even if it can move

Does it actually have weapons?

**Roknar**

Yes it has. Two profiles..sort of. When it Deepstrikes it can cause a pseudo nova. 3+3d3 inches around the claw are hit by S6 AP5 with no cover save and is counted as a flamer based attack.
And when it moves later it can cause a vectorstrike of sorts. D6 S5 AP5 to any units it passes over, infliciting damage to the weakest armour value on vehicles. Though on a 1 you suffer a penetrating hit.

The nova is pretty nice but if you want to use it you cant disembark that turn, nor can you use the other mode if your embarking/disembarking.

The kharybdis has the same rules in addition to its 5 individually targeting 24 inch S6 AP5 heavy 2 pinning twinlinked guns, though the nova is larger simply by virtue of the model being much bigger. It ram, though I'm not sure why you would want to do that with 12 armour and no rules to help that ram. It also blocks the flamer attack.

Also ,

@ Unit1126PLLMade

: we are in the middle of the 13th black crusade. The legions tend to get their gak together long enough during those to be called a legion.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Roknar wrote:
Yes it has. Two profiles..sort of. When it Deepstrikes it can cause a pseudo nova. 3+3d3 inches around the claw are hit by S6 AP5 with no cover save and is counted as a flamer based attack.
And when it moves later it can cause a vectorstrike of sorts. D6 S5 AP5 to any units it passes over, infliciting damage to the weakest armour value on vehicles. Though on a 1 you suffer a penetrating hit.

The nova is pretty nice but if you want to use it you cant disembark that turn, nor can you use the other mode if your embarking/disembarking.

The kharybdis has the same rules in addition to its 5 individually targeting 24 inch S6 AP5 heavy 2 pinning twinlinked guns, though the nova is larger simply by virtue of the model being much bigger. It ram, though I'm not sure why you would want to do that with 12 armour and no rules to help that ram. It also blocks the flamer attack.

Also ,
@ Unit1126PLLMade in gb: we are in the middle of the 13th black crusade. The legions tend to get their gak together long enough during those to be called a legion.

Yeah that's DEFINITELY not better than the standard Drop Pod.

At least the Assault Claw has 5 separate weapons and can be used suicidal with the formation that makes it immobile for a SD attack.

**Abadabadoobaddon**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Slayer le boucher wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Man, all these people that want to play legions should just use a 30k list.

Legion specific rules, no Daemons unless they're included in your legion specific rules, standard legion organization, the works. Drop pods, even!

If you want to play a legion, use the Legion list.

If you want to play the fragmented, disconcerted, and unravelled mess of a legion that is the 40k Chaos Space Marines, then I'm sorry, but your warband probably needs allies.

Fortunately, everywhere I've played allows 30k vs 40k.

Not the first time i've heard this, and while i do like the traitement FW gave fotr Legions, they are SPACE MARINES LEGIONS rules and lists, not CHAOS SPACE MARINES LEGIONS.

We want to play the Legions how they currently are, not how they where 10kyears ago.

3.5 dex delivered this and we where happy, so its not impossible to do, just that the Studio lacks any guy that is a CSM fan, because lets be honest here, each codex is made by guys that play, or like the said army/race to begin with, the latest guys who where CSM players at GW studio did leave the boat a decade ago.

You know that the Horus Heresy is divided into Loyalist SPACE MARINES LEGIONS [sic] and Traitor SPACE MARINES LEGIONS [sic] legions, right? Or do you just like the word Chaos?

Also, there are no Legions in 40k. That's the point - they've shattered into a million warring splinters. Even the almost-all-together ones like the Iron Warriors routinely destroy eachother. The Legions are shattered in 40k - they're gone.

The loyal legions don't exist either, and yet they still get different rules for their descendents.

**Mozzyfuzzy**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Slayer le boucher wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Man, all these people that want to play legions should just use a 30k list.

Legion specific rules, no Daemons unless they're included in your legion specific rules, standard legion organization, the works. Drop pods, even!

If you want to play a legion, use the Legion list.

If you want to play the fragmented, disconcerted, and unravelled mess of a legion that is the 40k Chaos Space Marines, then I'm sorry, but your warband probably needs allies.

Fortunately, everywhere I've played allows 30k vs 40k.

Not the first time i've heard this, and while i do like the traitement FW gave fotr Legions, they are SPACE MARINES LEGIONS rules and lists, not CHAOS SPACE MARINES LEGIONS.

We want to play the Legions how they currently are, not how they where 10kyears ago.

3.5 dex delivered this and we where happy, so its not impossible to do, just that the Studio lacks any guy that is a CSM fan, because lets be honest here, each codex is made by guys that play, or like the said army/race to begin with, the latest guys who where CSM players at GW studio did leave the boat a decade ago.

You know that the Horus Heresy is divided into Loyalist SPACE MARINES LEGIONS [sic] and Traitor SPACE MARINES LEGIONS [sic] legions, right? Or do you just like the word Chaos?

Also, there are no Legions in 40k. That's the point - they've shattered into a million warring splinters. Even the almost-all-together ones like the Iron Warriors routinely destroy eachother. The Legions are shattered in 40k - they're gone.

It also doesn't mean they suddenly lose all the things that were instilled into them. So Iron Warriors are still going to default to seige, Night Lords to fear etc etc.

**Homeskillet**

CrownAxe wrote:
Dozer Blades wrote:
It's obvious you are trolling.

I don't see why that is. Last time i checked a drop pod that cost 3x as much and lost inertial guidance isn't as good as a normal drop pod even if it can move

But it's a drop pod that allows you to chill inside and weather the storm for the first turn. It's survivable because it can jink. Second turn, it gets you 6" of extra movement before getting out and assaulting. It's somewhat overpriced, but not ridiculously so. Most games, my lone Dreadclaw has survived, and has hopped around to objectives to score me Maelstrom points, after dropping off their cargo.

**Dozer Blades**

I have always had good success with mine getting melee units into combat.

**kronk**

Matt.Kingsley wrote:
That's because everyone is forced to disembark from a Drop Pod now.

If they weren't they'd be able to because it's Open Topped (which is what BT players could do before the 6th Ed SM 'dex).

I had (and still have) the 4th edition Black Templar codex. They had to disembark when the drop pod landed just like the regular Space Marines did.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dozer Blades wrote:
It's obvious you are trolling.

It's been pointed out several times why people dislike the Dreadclaws as compared to the Drop Pods. Calling people names doesn't help your cause.

**Dozer Blades**

It really helps to have aggressive in your face units to draw some heat off the DC. That is why I like to use a big unit of flesh hounds .

**Slayer le boucher**

Now don't get me wrong Dreadclaws arn't terribad like Warp talons or Muties are.

Its just that when they where 80pts, i allready though that it was much, bot okay-ish, then they got updated and changed, but 100pts is too damn much.

If the thing was still at 80 or 75 like a razorback, man every darn unit i can take one, there would be one.

I've even got so far as to convert one!:

So if there is anyone that would really like to use them its me, but with my current lists that barely works, squeezing a 100pts transport is just too much.

**nareik**

Nice Khorne marines! I suppose those are chosen with a chaos lord? edit: and cypher!?

Very good Dread Claw conversion too, did you have a guide to that conversion?

**Roknar**

I like the dread claw for what it is. I mean I would prefer if it was a bit cheaper and had guidance and an errata that it doesn't eat an entire dread then I'd love it. Anything more would be bonus at that point.

Total wishlisting here but, if csm got more warp based mechanics we might be able to just deepstrike decently without a drop pod. Like maybe a better gate of infinity or a normal deepstrike but on turn 1 or something along those lines. I'd like that too, but I could still see the claw being useful even then.

**ChazSexington**

Roknar wrote:

You forgot something important in pros: it is objective secured if taken by csm or sometimes also chosen. That can be huge in maelstrom games. It has won me games.

True, but so do the drop pods in the Gladius Strike Force, which sit at 100 points less. But aye, should have included it, slipped my mind.

Roknar wrote:

Also, being a flyer and not a drop pod, we can keep our guys hidden inside rather than being forced to disembark, should we so choose.
And as for the cons: yes the fast attack slot is crowded, but the fire raptor and heldrake are completely different units. Nobody in their right mind would take a dreadclaw with the express intent of causing damage. Comparing to a storm eagle would be more fair and that isn't in the same slot. Not saying your wrong or anything though. I'd only ever take it as a dedicated myself.

Still, overall I agree. I like the claw but I would prefer if it had guidance (read: it really needs guidance). I mean...it' sentient enough to eat your guys, why not sentient enough to crash into enemy units and eat those? I could live with the claw instead of drop pods if we got some shenanigans of our own. Its a cool idea but it needs refining. As it is currently, it can't hope to compete with drop pods. That said though, if you treat it as a drop pod it sucks. Treat it as as an assault vehicle valkyrie and it fares much better. I enjoy it and it has done good things for me. Just...don't you dare stick a dread in there.

Same goes for the kharybdis really. It's really cool and I want to love it, but it just doesn't live up to the fluff at all. Wayy wayyyy too expensive. But really satisfying to use when it goes right lol.
By itself though the Dreadclaw works ok. It needs some further tuning but yea, comparing it the formation buffs loyalists get isn't quite fair. On it own its comparable. If it had guidance and costed more like 80ish points it would be good...different...but still good. The fact that these don't become paperweight can make a huge difference and the pseudo flamer is heaps better than the droppod bolter.

I agree with all of this. Rules that said you mushed anything underneath would be fun. Automatic tank shock or something.

Dozer Blades wrote:

So what transport can you assault out of the first turn besides the Khybardis ?

You cannot assault out of drop pods the turn they arrive.

The Fire Raptor is really good but the Heldrake anymore... do you really need three Fire Raptors ?

CSM dreads suck but we have the awesome Chaos Contemptor.

You can't assault out of a Kharybdis the turn it arrives either. The assault vehicle just buys you a round of AV12 protection.

Baledrakes ARE good. We've also got MoN bikers in that slot actually. Fast Attack and HQ are our best slots.

And Chaos Contemptors are not awesome. Most definitely not. Let's compare with an Ironclad...

CC 195pt vs IC 135pt
CC AV13/12/10 vs IC 13/13/10
CC WS 5 vs IC WS 4
CC S 7 vs IC S 6 (IC's hitting at S10 anyway due to equipment)
CC A 3 vs IC A 4
CC Twin-linked HB and combi-bolter vs IC Powerfist w/Stormbolter and Seismic Hammer w/Meltagun
CC has Fleet, Hellfire Reactor (4+ invulnerable vs Glancing, 6+ vs Pen, plus S 2 AP 2 hit against Psykers in CC) vs Extra Armour, Move Through Cover, and Chapter Tactics

You're paying 60pt for worse armour, +1 WS, worse effective strength, less attacks, worse weapons, and an unreliable Invuln. You can make it work by pouring points into it, but Clan Raukaan is taking 2 Ironclads that'll turn your Contemptor into metal mush.

I mean, at this point, why are you bothering to defend the Dreadclaw? Sure, I like the concept, but it's so badly executed that unless you're running a fluffy drop pod list of sorts and don't feel like using the SM codex with CSM models, you're never gonna use it.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Contemptors definitely need to be updated to have 13/13 and 4 attacks base.

**Dozer Blades**

ChazSexington wrote:
Roknar wrote:

You forgot something important in pros: it is objective secured if taken by csm or sometimes also chosen. That can be huge in maelstrom games. It has won me games.

True, but so do the drop pods in the Gladius Strike Force, which sit at 100 points less. But aye, should have included it, slipped my mind.

Roknar wrote:

Also, being a flyer and not a drop pod, we can keep our guys hidden inside rather than being forced to disembark, should we so choose.
And as for the cons: yes the fast attack slot is crowded, but the fire raptor and heldrake are completely different units. Nobody in their right mind would take a dreadclaw with the express intent of causing damage. Comparing to a storm eagle would be more fair and that isn't in the same slot. Not saying your wrong or anything though. I'd only ever take it as a dedicated myself.

Still, overall I agree. I like the claw but I would prefer if it had guidance (read: it really needs guidance). I mean...it' sentient enough to eat your guys, why not sentient enough to crash into enemy units and eat those? I could live with the claw instead of drop pods if we got some shenanigans of our own. Its a cool idea but it needs refining. As it is currently, it can't hope to compete with drop pods. That said though, if you treat it as a drop pod it sucks. Treat it as as an assault vehicle valkyrie and it fares much better. I enjoy it and it has done good things for me. Just...don't you dare stick a dread in there.

Same goes for the kharybdis really. It's really cool and I want to love it, but it just doesn't live up to the fluff at all. Wayy wayyyy too expensive. But really satisfying to use when it goes right lol.
By itself though the Dreadclaw works ok. It needs some further tuning but yea, comparing it the formation buffs loyalists get isn't quite fair. On it own its comparable. If it had guidance and costed more like 80ish points it would be good...different...but still good. The fact that these don't become paperweight can make a huge difference and the pseudo flamer is heaps better than the droppod bolter.

I agree with all of this. Rules that said you mushed anything underneath would be fun. Automatic tank shock or something.

Dozer Blades wrote:

So what transport can you assault out of the first turn besides the Khybardis ?

You cannot assault out of drop pods the turn they arrive.

The Fire Raptor is really good but the Heldrake anymore... do you really need three Fire Raptors ?

CSM dreads suck but we have the awesome Chaos Contemptor.

You can't assault out of a Kharybdis the turn it arrives either. The assault vehicle just buys you a round of AV12 protection.

Baledrakes ARE good. We've also got MoN bikers in that slot actually. Fast Attack and HQ are our best slots.

And Chaos Contemptors are not awesome. Most definitely not. Let's compare with an Ironclad...

CC 195pt vs IC 135pt
CC AV13/12/10 vs IC 13/13/10
CC WS 5 vs IC WS 4
CC S 7 vs IC S 6 (IC's hitting at S10 anyway due to equipment)
CC A 3 vs IC A 4
CC Twin-linked HB and combi-bolter vs IC Powerfist w/Stormbolter and Seismic Hammer w/Meltagun
CC has Fleet, Hellfire Reactor (4+ invulnerable vs Glancing, 6+ vs Pen, plus S 2 AP 2 hit against Psykers in CC) vs Extra Armour, Move Through Cover, and Chapter Tactics

You're paying 60pt for worse armour, +1 WS, worse effective strength, less attacks, worse weapons, and an unreliable Invuln. You can make it work by pouring points into it, but Clan Raukaan is taking 2 Ironclads that'll turn your Contemptor into metal mush.

I mean, at this point, why are you bothering to defend the Dreadclaw? Sure, I like the concept, but it's so badly executed that unless you're running a fluffy drop pod list of sorts and don't feel like using the SM codex with CSM models, you're never gonna use it.

You are entitled to your opinions but I pretty much disagree with everything you said. It is great for SM players they have GSF formation and good for them - I really don't care tbh and don't let it get me down. Funny enough I love using Contemptors in Dreadclaws... different strokes for different folks. Don't take it personally that I am saying you are wrong. We just don't see eye to eye.

**Slayer-Fan123**

But you were just proven wrong...

**Dozer Blades**

How is that so? I have had really good experience with these units. I can post up a list.

**Slayer-Fan123**

I mean, do you want the math done? I can make that happen.

**Akiasura**

Oh god, WE ARE GOING FULL MUTILATOR!
NEVER GO FULL MUTILATOR

**Unit1126PLL**

It is an assault vehicle/flyer.

75 points gets you a Chimera with a pintle stubber. Is that really worth the same as a flying assault vehicle that can come in on the first turn?

**Dozer Blades**

Lol.

I use Contemptors as heavy weapon platforms. They fulfill a different role in my army as opposed to the Ironclad - and yes the Ironclad is awesome in melee. Contemptors are a point sink but I enjoy using them.

**Korinov**

Dozer Blades wrote:
How is that so? I have had really good experience with these units. I can post up a list.

I can't wait for other one of those CSM lists of yours that so clearly prove the CSM codex is not that bad.

**Homeskillet**

Korinov wrote:
Dozer Blades wrote:
How is that so? I have had really good experience with these units. I can post up a list.

I can't wait for other one of those CSM lists of yours that so clearly prove the CSM codex is not that bad.

The Codex is bad, but that's not to say that there aren't ways to make some synergistic combos and to make lists that will win. I'm surprised this thread hasn't blown the servers with salted motherboards from all the tears of those who think it's unplayable. Like Dozer Blades, I play a CSM list that is quite competitive. Not LVO/Adepticon Championships competitive, but at any lesser event it would do just fine when played well. Too many people want a point-click, "I win" army. Go play Eldar if that's what you want, it's super easy; been there, done that.