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I'm curious what kind of load outs people tend to go for with the Stormsurge and how effective they've found it to be.

 fatbudda319 wrote:
I'm curious what kind of load outs people tend to go for with the Stormsurge and how effective they've found it to be.

As an opponent, I've played against the stormsurge 3 times, twice against two Stormsurges. I would personally advise that you always take the S10 large blast, and always take Early Warning Override. Id advise that you take the air burst over the flamers if points allow. Then, I would say you should take either a Velocity Tracker or the 4++, based on your meta. Honestly I believe that, for the points, velocity tracker is better, but if you take two (as you should!) then one lf each is best.

There really isnt much of an option with them. The options they got are pretty dumb.

TL Airburster > TL Burst Cannon or Flamer
Pulse Driver Cannon > Pulse Blast Cannon
No Shield = Dumb move, always take that damn shield.
EWO/Adv Target Locks because he really cant take any other options. Remember GMCs cant overwatch, so CF is pointless. He already has FNP, so stims are useless. And he is disallowed from VRTs.
Technically you could give him VTs for Skyfire but why...? Expensive upgrade to fire S5 shots into the air? I mean, i guess technically D missiles but the problem is you pretty much waste your cannon for a turn because its not per weapon, its "Skyfire on or off" for that turn, so he literally cant fire the blasts if you use it.
Theres also the Positional Relay but that item is pretty pointless for Tau in general.

The shotgun does have a place but its just soooo situational. S10 Ord blast table range and being able to always fire it at a perfect target (T5 splat or vehicle) due to GMC rules kinda outshines the 10" double D. If it was another 5" or its nonD profile didnt have jack for AP you'd probably see it a lot more. Main problem is being unable to use its anchors since its such a short range and the nonD profiles arent that amazing.

Bare in mind with EWO: If you use it, you sacrifice your "extra shooting" because you cant trigger it if you cant shoot to begin with. Still take it though because its 5pts, he has no real other option to replace it, and if you get droppod-alpha striked you are going to BADLY want those guns firing interceptor lol

Basically what Vineheart01 said above^

In order of importance:

Shield Generator
Pulse Driver Cannon
EWO
TL AFP
ATS

The argument for Velocity Tracker is that blasts with skyfire can hit FMCs, and will therefore cause instant death on a flying Daemon Prince or Crone with strength 10. Worth considering. Also, something to note, is that when the anchors are deployed he fires twice. You could fire once, as normal, and then declare Velocity tracker for the second shot and target a FMC/flyer. Trust me on this one, a VT stormsurge is an excellent FMC hunter. If you have two in the same unit, I would consider buying the second a VT instead of a shield (shield is pricey and in a unit of two, one is usually enough to tank shots).

Of course, your meta could be very light on FMCs. If this is the case, then by all means the shield is the best choice. But, from what I've seen, Nid and Daemon FMC lists are doing quite well.

I didn't think you can use blasts on anything flying?

raekone wrote:
I didn't think you can use blasts on anything flying?

You are correct. Even with velocity trackers, blasts cannot hit flyers


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jifel wrote:
The argument for Velocity Tracker is that blasts with skyfire can hit FMCs, and will therefore cause instant death on a flying Daemon Prince or Crone with strength 10. Worth considering. Also, something to note, is that when the anchors are deployed he fires twice. You could fire once, as normal, and then declare Velocity tracker for the second shot and target a FMC/flyer. Trust me on this one, a VT stormsurge is an excellent FMC hunter. If you have two in the same unit, I would consider buying the second a VT instead of a shield (shield is pricey and in a unit of two, one is usually enough to tank shots).

Of course, your meta could be very light on FMCs. If this is the case, then by all means the shield is the best choice. But, from what I've seen, Nid and Daemon FMC lists are doing quite well.

Even with velocity trackers, blasts cannot hit flyers

They can hit FMC's if the attacker has Skyfire though.

 Jancoran wrote:
They can hit FMC's if the attacker has Skyfire though.

No they cannot.

BRB: "Template and Blast weapons, and any other attacks that don't roll to hit, cannot hit Zooming Flyers"

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
They can hit FMC's if the attacker has Skyfire though.

No they cannot.

BRB: "Template and Blast weapons, and any other attacks that don't roll to hit, cannot hit Zooming Flyers"

When you find the rule that says Template and Blast weapons can't hit Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures, let us know please. We've all been trying to find it for over a year

As for the OP, pretty much every Stormsurge I see competitively has the Shield Generator, Pulse Driver Cannon, Early Warning Override and Twin-Linked Airbursting Fragmentation Projector. You will often see the Advanced Targeting System and Velocity Tracker - the former for picking out valuable models from units, the latter to give you some decent anti-air (especially against FMCs) if you don't have Heavy Burst Cannon Riptides or Skyrays available - and occasionally the Twin-Linked Burst Cannon instead of the Twin-Linked Airbursting Fragmentation Projector. Running two of them them solo in a Hunter Contingent or a single pair for a Combined Arms detachment is common.

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
They can hit FMC's if the attacker has Skyfire though.

No they cannot.

BRB: "Template and Blast weapons, and any other attacks that don't roll to hit, cannot hit Zooming Flyers"

Yet... I didnt say flyers, did I? Nope.

The Hard to Hit rule applies differently to Flyers than it does for the Monstrous Creatures. True story.

 Jancoran wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
They can hit FMC's if the attacker has Skyfire though.

No they cannot.

BRB: "Template and Blast weapons, and any other attacks that don't roll to hit, cannot hit Zooming Flyers"

Yet... I didnt say flyers, did I? Nope.

The Hard to Hit rule applies differently to Flyers than it does for the Monstrous Creatures. True story.

delete

Just as a precaution before a rules slap-fest starts, here are the two Hard to Hit rules for Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures, respectively. Interpret them as you wish and apply them to your Stormsurge taking a Velocity Tracker as necessary.

ZOOMING FLYERS
"Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule). Template and Blast weapons, and any other attacks that don't roll To Hit, cannot hit Zooming Flyers.

SWOOPING FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURES
"Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule."

I know that you can wound a swooping FMC with even a regular blast if it was not the initial target of the blast. The rules are screwed up in that department, so, anything can be.

Caederes wrote:
Just as a precaution before a rules slap-fest starts, here are the two Hard to Hit rules for Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures, respectively. Interpret them as you wish and apply them to your Stormsurge taking a Velocity Tracker as necessary.

ZOOMING FLYERS
"Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule). Template and Blast weapons, and any other attacks that don't roll To Hit, cannot hit Zooming Flyers.

SWOOPING FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURES
"Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule."

This is cut a and dry.

Carefully read the BRB sections for Flyer and for FMCs. The rules are similar but different. FMC's can be hit with template/blasts if the attacker has skyfire.

Back to the Stormsurge question.

I used a buddy's in a friendly game and it seemed imperative to me that I give it a shield, AFP, EWO and VT. I decided to try the shot gun but found it indeed was situational at best. I would try it again with the Str10 gun

Anchors = beastmode.

Naaris wrote:


Anchors = beastmode.

So are Stomps. The Stormsurge is an all around winner for our codex.

Caederes wrote:
Just as a precaution before a rules slap-fest starts, here are the two Hard to Hit rules for Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures, respectively. Interpret them as you wish and apply them to your Stormsurge taking a Velocity Tracker as necessary.

ZOOMING FLYERS
"Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule). Template and Blast weapons, and any other attacks that don't roll To Hit, cannot hit Zooming Flyers.

SWOOPING FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURES
"Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule."

some tournament formats (ITC) have ruled the FMC rules to be the same as Flyer rules, despite them obviously not being.

end result, if you play any tournament that is using ITC rules FMC cannot be hit by blasts or templates. yeah its not RAW at all, but something to be aware of for some people.

blaktoof wrote:

Caederes wrote:
Just as a precaution before a rules slap-fest starts, here are the two Hard to Hit rules for Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures, respectively. Interpret them as you wish and apply them to your Stormsurge taking a Velocity Tracker as necessary.

ZOOMING FLYERS
"Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule). Template and Blast weapons, and any other attacks that don't roll To Hit, cannot hit Zooming Flyers.

SWOOPING FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURES
"Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule."

some tournament formats (ITC) have ruled the FMC rules to be the same as Flyer rules, despite them obviously not being.

end result, if you play any tournament that is using ITC rules FMC cannot be hit by blasts or templates. yeah its not RAW at all, but something to be aware of for some people.

Yeah thats what I had thought and why I mentioned that before getting chewed out lol

blaktoof wrote:

Caederes wrote:
Just as a precaution before a rules slap-fest starts, here are the two Hard to Hit rules for Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures, respectively. Interpret them as you wish and apply them to your Stormsurge taking a Velocity Tracker as necessary.

ZOOMING FLYERS
"Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule). Template and Blast weapons, and any other attacks that don't roll To Hit, cannot hit Zooming Flyers.

SWOOPING FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURES
"Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule."

some tournament formats (ITC) have ruled the FMC rules to be the same as Flyer rules, despite them obviously not being.

end result, if you play any tournament that is using ITC rules FMC cannot be hit by blasts or templates. yeah its not RAW at all, but something to be aware of for some people.

Huh, I actually wasn't aware of this. In that case it would certainly cheapen the value of Velocity Tracker, I had been playing it where my FMCs could be hit by Blasts, but we do play ITC so I'll correct that.

Yes there is a loophole with the FMC and Blasts, there isnt a single player thats going to let that slide though. Even without ITC ruling its the same as regular Fliers, it is obviously a rule oversight since they are the same damn thing other than ones a creature, ones a vehicle, and the distances are different.

Even before i started using a Flymander for the hell of it i never ruled that as possible, because it makes 0 damn sense and is clearly a mistake. And i face a lot of tyranids, or used to anyway before they sold their armies (one for bill reasons, other cause he was mad at the dex lol)

Stomp is indeed powerful and largely underestimated. My friends always assumed it was just free hits because theyve never used it, but i mentioned a 6 result is just about as bad as a D weapon Deathblow (Removed from Play bypasses EW since there is no Wound to trigger EW, but cant be used on supers). Also rolling a 6 against a vehicle is hilarious...essentially an all-legs mechano suit just punted a vehicle LOL

Usually i dont bother with Stomp unless i had to pop EWO, which renders Anchors useless for a turn. Double turn firing will usually do more damage than stomp, and he may be durable but he can still be shredded to pieces if he tries to stomp a melee star like Spacewolf riders with their fancy claws. Odds are they'd either kill him in one go, or finish him off after some peppering in the shooting phase before he could ever stomp them.

It might not be a rules oversight, as FMCs are not flying as high nor as fast as Flyers technically are.

Ironically, real life anti-air weapons explode near aircraft rather than hit them directly, and as such are a much higher explosive charge than standard ordinance, closer to a mortor shell than an artillery shell. This means that Flak weapons in 40k should be S8 large blasts that only hit flyers. Just saying.

SJ

Also, GW deliberately changed the wording between 6th and 7th. It wasn't an oversight - it was a choice.

Tangential thought: that's one thing I'm not a big fan of ITC for. Answering questions that GW can't be arsed to answer? Thumbs way up! Playing rules designer? Yeah, not so much.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Yes there is a loophole with the FMC and Blasts, there isnt a single player thats going to let that slide though. Even without ITC ruling its the same as regular Fliers, it is obviously a rule oversight since they are the same damn thing other than ones a creature, ones a vehicle, and the distances are different.

Even before i started using a Flymander for the hell of it i never ruled that as possible, because it makes 0 damn sense and is clearly a mistake. And i face a lot of tyranids, or used to anyway before they sold their armies (one for bill reasons, other cause he was mad at the dex lol)

Stomp is indeed powerful and largely underestimated. My friends always assumed it was just free hits because theyve never used it, but i mentioned a 6 result is just about as bad as a D weapon Deathblow (Removed from Play bypasses EW since there is no Wound to trigger EW, but cant be used on supers). Also rolling a 6 against a vehicle is hilarious...essentially an all-legs mechano suit just punted a vehicle LOL

Usually i dont bother with Stomp unless i had to pop EWO, which renders Anchors useless for a turn. Double turn firing will usually do more damage than stomp, and he may be durable but he can still be shredded to pieces if he tries to stomp a melee star like Spacewolf riders with their fancy claws. Odds are they'd either kill him in one go, or finish him off after some peppering in the shooting phase before he could ever stomp them.

Its not an "obvious oversight". Flyers and FMC's dont move the same amount, dont "flat out" the same amount and an FMC sure as heck isnt going to outpace weapons like a JET will.

The rules are clearly different. ADDING rules isn't what we do here.

It's quite clear blast with sky fire hits FMCs.

yup.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It's quite clear blast with sky fire hits FMCs.

RAW yes, but not ITC rules and thus most tournaments

ITC isn't "most" tournaments and ITC allows TO's not to use the entirety of the FAQ...and they frequently make use of that freedom.

Also, the ITC is wrong and has a habit of "Adding" rules. In some places to the better. In some... Its basically just them saying "we like playing this way, you should too".

They weren't always polling people on their rulings the way they do now and several of their rulings like the INAT before it are over reaching.

Back to the topic at hand. I agree with the general concensus of loadout on the Stormsurge, but I'm curious myself what the best way to fit it into a 2k list is. I own two and my list building skills since the Taucurioun has emerged have started to fail me.

Noc

There are a few ways to do it indeed. One is the formation as part of a "Taucurion" as you put it, the Heavy Retribution Cadre consisting of 2 Stormsurge units and 1 Ghostkeel unit. It's powerful but finicky as it is reliant on the Ghostkeel to really work its magic. Another in a Taucurion is to take them as the "Heavy" choices of the standard Hunter Cadre, meaning you can invest in other formations - such as an Optimized Stealth Cadre - as your Auxiliaries.

The last option is to just use them in a Combined Arms detachment as the Lord of War option, and running them as a pair as opposed to using two separate CADs to bring them individually tends to be recommended given the mandatory HQs and Troops you would otherwise have to purchase. Besides, two sets of Stomps in the same combat will tear through almost anything if the shooting doesn't first.

Nocturus wrote:
Back to the topic at hand. I agree with the general concensus of loadout on the Stormsurge, but I'm curious myself what the best way to fit it into a 2k list is. I own two and my list building skills since the Taucurioun has emerged have started to fail me.

Noc

Depends if you play in an area with ITC rules or not. If you do, you can't use the Heavy Ret Cadre and your only option would be to put both in the same squad in either a CAD or a Hunter Cadre