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Hello,

I just started playing the tabletop game via the Dark Vengeance set. I started picking up some of my own miniatures to build a Blood Ravens army (I was introduced to 40k moreso through the Dawn of War games even though I knew of its existence prior) and am also trying to use Tabletop Simulator to play with some friends who are living out of state. I have a few questions I was hoping you all could answer.

1) What base rules are "generally accepted" for use with the Blood Ravens, I.E. tactics, formations, Relics?

I was trying to read through the Space Marine codex for what tactics and formations might generally apply but couldn't really come to a consensus on my own since I'm still new to actually looking for this stuff to apply to creating an army.

1a) What is the general unit setup to work off of?

I've been a little confused as to what falls in where in the formation distribution lists

2) Am I allowed to use any of the relic wargear from the Dawn of War games in an army list and does it affect anything?

I was looking to use God Splitter (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/God-Splitter) on my Company Master/Captain HQ unit but I didn't know if there would be any other special rules applied to it other than that of a regular Nemesis Daemon Hammer. Is it considered a Nemesis Daemon Hammer since it is a weapon gifted from the Inquisition as a Daemonhammer? How many points would it be considered?

Also, my friend was trying to argue that using that weapon would make my army Grey Knights instead, does it still just remain a Space Marines army using a gifted item from the Grey Knights arsenal?

3) Is there a limit on the number of Librarians and/or Librarius Conclaves one can use on the field at one time?

4) Is there a point modifier difference for using Deathwing Terminators over regular terminators, or should I stick to using the difference between regular terminators and assault terminators?

5) When making an Overwatch, am I allowed to fire all capable weapons or just 1 weapon? Can I fire boltguns in rapid fire for overwatch? I've just been firing single shot for now

Thanks for your help!

Hi and welcome a lot of these questions are answered in the rule book but i will break them down a little as you are new.

1) Blood ravens have no clear successor chapter (save rumours of thousand sons) so as i do i paint them up and pick the chapter that suits my playstyle.

1a) unsure what you mean by this.

2) in short no (in long noooooooooooooooo) you can’t pick and pluck items from different armies, that being said there’s nothing preventing you equipping him with a demon hammer (model only) and using it as a counts as thunder hammer so all the rules for a thunder hammer that will make it legal and look badass! The points for the thunder hammer are within the space marine codex.

3) Librarians - yes/no depending on your force type selected (Combined arms/ allied/formation/unbound) they will tell you how many HQ slots you have therefore how many librarians they are found within the rule book again, with regards the conclaves formation no if you go unbound you can take as many as your points limit allows

4) Deathwing are dark angels specific (so cannot be used and matched with SM codex unless following the points detailed in 3)) On dakka we won’t give out points values all the info for Deathwing will be in the dark angels codex

5) No you make a shooting attack as you would in the shooing phase (albeit snap shot) so how many weapons can you fire in the shooting phase per person? The answer to that is the answer to your question. With regard Rapid fire yes provided you are in range.

Hope this all helps

Kez

 kezwick wrote:
Hi and welcome a lot of these questions are answered in the rule book but i will break them down a little as you are new.

1a) unsure what you mean by this.

I've been getting a little lost looking through the rules for some of this stuff ^^;;

What I meant here is how do the basic Space Marine deployment formations work as to how many of each unit and such. I've been a little confused trying to figure out the formation stuff. I have an idea of what units I'd like to use but I don't know if it would be formation legal or not. My friend wants to do battle-forged rather than unbound so I'm trying to figure out the formations to adhere to his wishes.

 kezwick wrote:
2) in short no (in long noooooooooooooooo) you can’t pick and pluck items from different armies, that being said there’s nothing preventing you equipping him with a demon hammer (model only) and using it as a counts as thunder hammer so all the rules for a thunder hammer that will make it legal and look badass! The points for the thunder hammer are within the space marine codex.

I wasn't sure if it would be considered a "pluck" since it's basically a chapter relic (going by the game lore) that they have after it was given to them to use. I guess it would be an import of sorts in tabletop standards, but couldn't it be considered a chapter relic or would it have to be in a codex to be considered as such? I'm not sure how much of the lore and stuff from the game one could import over to tabletop and that has been a point of contention.

 kezwick wrote:
3) Librarians - yes/no depending on your force type selected (Combined arms/ allied/formation/unbound) they will tell you how many HQ slots you have therefore how many librarians they are found within the rule book again, with regards the conclaves formation no if you go unbound you can take as many as your points limit allows

If I were looking to just use 1 conclave then, would it still be formation dependent then? How would I set that up?

Overall I've just been a little overwhelmed with all of the rules and making sense of them. Thanks for your help thus far

What I meant here is how do the basic Space Marine deployment formations work as to how many of each unit and such. I've been a little confused trying to figure out the formation stuff. I have an idea of what units I'd like to use but I don't know if it would be formation legal or not. My friend wants to do battle-forged rather than unbound so I'm trying to figure out the formations to adhere to his wishes.

I think the section in the 40k rule book called preparing (or something similar haven’t got the book at hand) details what units you need in order to make a battle forged army - this will tell you how many Hqs / Troops/ elites / Fast / Heavy you need as minimum and how many as maximum, formations them self’s are a little different in that you bust use ONLY what is allowed within the formation datasheet, for example one formation says you are to have 1 techmarine then 3-5 of a certain unit, meaning for that formation to be legal that is what you need. Formations are not the only form of making a battle forged army; formations are within the codex whereas the rulebook as ways of making lists with the units you want.

I wasn't sure if it would be considered a "pluck" since it's basically a chapter relic (going by the game lore) that they have after it was given to them to use. I guess it would be an import of sorts in tabletop standards, but couldn't it be considered a chapter relic or would it have to be in a codex to be considered as such? I'm not sure how much of the lore and stuff from the game one could import over to tabletop and that has been a point of contention.

The only relics that you have access to are ones that are listed in the codex these are items with special rules that set them out from the norm - that being said if you want to make a thunderhammer look badass you can call it a godhammer that was given to the captain by Draigo himself fluff wise but it would still have the stats of a thunder hammer.

If I were looking to just use 1 conclave then, would it still be formation dependent then? How would I set that up?

the conclave is a formation unto itself so as long as you follow the rules within the datasheet then you use it for game purposes it is its own detachment, i can see where you’re getting confused with the strike force (the detachment made up of formations) this is just 1 way to take formations. All the formations can still be used on their own or taken with another formation

The key with 7th ed is to forget everything you ever knew about building an army

Page 117 from memory covers building an army. It can be unbound, meaning you are only limited by points - bring whatever you like, with no regards to HQ, troops etc.

Bound is a little more constrained, but still nothing like prior editions. In a bound army all units must be within one, and only one, detachment*. A detachment can be the old one HQ / two troops (called a Combined Arms Detachment) minimum you might recall from 6th edition back to third, or it can be a special type of detachment called a formation. You can have all your army being formations if you wish - and you can have as many detachments as you wish, as well.

The benefit of bound is you get command benefits from detachments. These can be minor, or fairly major

* the exceptions are the so called "super detachments " like necron Decurion or the space marine Gladius. These are detachments of formations, usually with quite high minimum points invested however usually some major benefits.

40k these days can be a confusing game to start. For now, I suggest building your army around a Combined Arms Detachment (see the rulebook). This will give you flexibility in incorporating new units into your army.

The founding chapter of the Blood Ravens is unknown, so just pick whichever chapter tactics you like, or indeed use the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, etc. book if you think that fits better.

Within a detachment all units must be of the same faction (or have no faction), and in the case of Space Marines, be of the same chapter. You couldn't throw Deathwing Terminators into your Codex: Space Marine detachment. But you could have a separate Dark Angels detachment in your army. If you wanted to use Deathwing Terminator models as regular Terminators, nobody I know would have a problem with that so long as they could tell what was what.

Amongst your friends maybe it's fine to come up with your own custom wargear. If that's the case talk to your friends and come up with something you agree on. If it's a regular game of 40k then the best you can hope for is a weird look from your opponent or you may get a resounding 'nooooooooo' as an above poster suggested.

Not sure if this helps but:

In a battleforged army you can have as many 'detachments' or 'formations' as you want, and they can be from different codexes (factions).

A detachment will list exactly how many HQ, troop, fast attack, heavy, lord of war, or fortifications you can have and they must all be from the same codex.

A formation is like a detachment but is a lot stricter and generally lists specific units that are in it.

In an unbound army you can take any unit you want from any codex or any formation...but you cannot take any detachments.

The rulebook shows 2 kinds of detachments - CAD and allied.

But there are many many more formations and detachments found in army codexes, white dwarf magazines, or available to download online.

This could easily have been a post I would have made a few months ago. I'm working on my own Blood Ravens army (though it's currently on hold while I build up my Necrons).

As far as official rules, I recommend the Ultramarines Combat Doctrine. The ability to adapt to the situation fits the Bloody Magpies well. The Blood Ravens follow the Codex Astartes in most regards, so pick up a copy of Codex: Space Marines if you don't have it already. It has nice chart about how the companies are organized.

For unofficial rules (and in emphasize UNOFFICIAL), my gaming group has been talking about the following: May replace any HQ choice with a Librarian and access to any chapter's relic list. We're also toying with the idea of allowing Blood Ravens Librarians to buy Mastery Level 3, but we haven't decided on a point value.

YMMV, but if your group agrees, those seem like nice, fluffy rules for the Ravens.

And if you were wondering, the army I'm building consists of two Battle Demi-Companies and a Stormwing. When the opponent/tournament allows, I'll use the unofficial Blood Raven rules above to trade out the Chaplain in my second Battle Demi-Company for a Terminator Librarian.

Recommend going ultramarines and taking a librarius conclave with a 'counts as' Tigurius as your warlord.

I decided to use the Ultramarines tactics, as that seems to best fit the Blood Ravens lore moreso than any other chapter.

Also, I was finally able to figure out the formation rules for a Gladius after sitting down and really looking over stuff. Didn't click with the skull symbols for what fit into the Gladius right away.

On a different note, I was trying to go through and point cost out the Chaos Space Marine army supplied in the Dark Vengeance set and I noticed that the Chosen aren't in the Khorne Daemonkin 7th edition book, nor is a Chaos Sorcerer that I bought for the army after my brother complained about not having a psyker. Do you use 6th edition's rules for their stats or how does that work when they're not even included in the Khorne codex as far as I can see? And one of my friends wants to use Pathfinders in his Eldar army, would that just be 6th edition as well or were they moved to another army? And can rangers be put on jetbikes?

Also, thank you for the help so far everyone

The Khore Daemonkin and the Choas Space Marines are not the same army, they just use a lot of the same models. Similar to how the Blood Angels are not the same army as regular Space Marines.

The sorcerer is not a valid unit in a Daemonkin detachment. You would need to use the rules for the Choas Space Marines and make a CSM detachment to include it. And yes, the 6th edition version is the current version of that book.

Dark Vengeance features the Crimson Slaughter which have their own Codex Supplement you can see here http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Crimson-Slaughter-A-Codex-Supplement

This is a supplement for the Chaos Space Marines codex (not the Khorne Daemonkin one)

On the plus side they are battle-brother allies. Which means if you take a detachment of Chaos Space Marines and a detachment of Khorne Daemonkin in your battleforged army - your independant characters can join either factions units and can even share their transports or cast psychic blessings on each other.

Re: Eldar Rangers.

Rangers do not have the option to take jetbikes (kind of defeats their purpose).
Pathfinders exist in 7th edition but in order to unlock them you need to take Illic Nightspear. This was also true in 6th edition.

 Happyjew wrote:
Re: Eldar Rangers.

Rangers do not have the option to take jetbikes (kind of defeats their purpose).
Pathfinders exist in 7th edition but in order to unlock them you need to take Illic Nightspear. This was also true in 6th edition.

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2015/05/eldar-rangers-get-jetbikes-now.html

Would he just operate as if that doesn't exist then?

Lusiphur wrote:
The Khore Daemonkin and the Choas Space Marines are not the same army, they just use a lot of the same models. Similar to how the Blood Angels are not the same army as regular Space Marines.

The sorcerer is not a valid unit in a Daemonkin detachment. You would need to use the rules for the Choas Space Marines and make a CSM detachment to include it. And yes, the 6th edition version is the current version of that book.

So what changed from 6th to 7th that I'd have to keep in mind when using the Codex to point cost/formation the army? I never played before now (7th), so I have no clue what's been changed from version to version to keep in mind in case the 6th edition codex might have a different rule or not.

Dark Vengeance features the Crimson Slaughter which have their own Codex Supplement you can see here http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Crimson-Slaughter-A-Codex-Supplement

This is a supplement for the Chaos Space Marines codex (not the Khorne Daemonkin one)

On the plus side they are battle-brother allies. Which means if you take a detachment of Chaos Space Marines and a detachment of Khorne Daemonkin in your battleforged army - your independant characters can join either factions units and can even share their transports or cast psychic blessings on each other.

I was more wondering cause I was trying to ask my friends which army they'd like the units painted as. One wants Khorne, and the other said general chaos. So wasn't sure how to solve the dilemma of the Chosen and Sorcerers not being in the Khorne book. Now I understand that it's two different armies, so that helped clear that up

One last question, if you have a ruin like:

aaaaa__aaaaa
b__________|
b__________|
|___________| X
|___________|
b__________|
b__________|
----------X
where a and b are solid areas but the lines are breaks/windows/open ground. If you flank the ruin in the open areas like moving to any position of X, do the units in the ruin still get a cover save even though, technically speaking they have no cover? I know the rulebook says even if obscured 25% or not as long as they're on the ground that is the ruin, but that makes zero sense to me...

but that makes zero sense to me...

welcome to 40K! it lives in a world outside of our phyisical limitations.

So what changed from 6th to 7th that I'd have to keep in mind when using the Codex to point cost/formation the army? I never played before now (7th), so I have no clue what's been changed from version to version to keep in mind in case the 6th edition codex might have a different rule or not.

Basically the change from 6th to 7th was the elimination of the FOC standard which changed to Detachments and formations. Point costs and unit rules will remain the same. Because the Chaos codex has not yet been updated to 7th it severally limits the number of formations available to it. If your only source is the Chaos Codex and the BRB your then primarily looking at using the Combined Arms Detachment and the Allied Detachment (which is actually a copy of the old FOC). There maybe a formation or two outside of the codex, however I am not familiar enough with CSM to point you in the right direction to get them.

Your army is not limited to only one formation or detachment and can even come from different codexes. Khorne Daemonkin is still a valid option to ally with Choas Space Marines. So you could use a KDK formation from that book and use an Allied Detachment or Combined Arms Detachment with the Sorcerer and Chosen included in it plus anything that is need to meet the minimum requirements from the CSM codex.

As to the ruin question, Most ruins are buildings which have been blown to pieces, with ceilings and walls caved in and collapsed as well as broken furniture. This would leave a lot of large debris on the ground which would allow your target to duck behind, it just isn't necessarily shown on the terrain as it would make it hard to place models in the ruin if that were the case.