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So i got the new box and have started to put things together. I do have a tiny question about how the canticles and doctrina interact. My guy assumption is because the Dominus is in the formation i can use 1-3 version of canticles but do they affect the vanguard if he's with them ?

Canticles effect Cult Mech units. If the Dominus joins the Vanguard you have no Cult Mech units and thus gain no benefit from the Canticles.

the dominus is a unit from cult mech though. Even if he joined another squad via the independent charactor rule, I don't know of any rule that would cause him to loss his faction status.

FlingitNow wrote:Canticles effect Cult Mech units. If the Dominus joins the Vanguard you have no Cult Mech units and thus gain no benefit from the Canticles.

HoundsofDemos wrote:the dominus is a unit from cult mech though. Even if he joined another squad via the independent charactor rule, I don't know of any rule that would cause him to loss his faction status.

I think more correctly each of the Canticles affects only units with the Canticles of the Omnissiah special rule.

The question then is does the unit have the rule if not all models in the unit have the rule? Consistency with earlier threads on this topic would suggest perhaps yes, although this example is something of the reverse of those discussions, being an Independent Character with the rule joining and counting as part of a unit without the rule, so perhaps not.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
the dominus is a unit from cult mech though. Even if he joined another squad via the independent charactor rule, I don't know of any rule that would cause him to loss his faction status.

Correct, however, when joined to the Vanguard, he is part of that unit. As such the Dominus unit, temporarily ceases to exist. So you would have a model from Cult Mech, but not a unit from Cult Mech.

Again I'm not seeing anything in the rules that supports him losing his faction identity. He is treated as part of the unit for several purposes via the IC rule but nothing says he morphs from a cult mech unit to a skitarri. He is still a separate unit for several purposes including kill points. I would argue that he and he alone would gain the benefits of the 1 to 3 version of the canticles. Shroudpasm is the one I feel could spread because he would gain stealth and that rule confers to the unit.

The issue has nothing to do with faction. Canticles of the Omnissiah affect 'friendly units with the Canticles of the Omnissiah special rule'.

The question is whether the unit has the Canticles of the Omnissiah special rule if joined by a single Independent Character with the rule.

Sorry I misremembered the rule. If it was units with the Cult Mech Faction then no it would not work. He is not a separate unit otherwise he could be targeted with shooting attacks. Him and the Vanguard are one unit and that unit has faction Skitarii as it had faction Skitarii before he joined and he is a normal member of the unit for all rules purposes.

However as Mr Shine has pointed out the rule triggers on units with Canticles. Now units don't have special rules models do, thus the only English meaning that would make sense is if the units contains models with the rule. Using this meaning only a single model needs to have the rule to satisfy the unit having the rule. For instance if I ask you does your unit have any plasmaguns, only 1 model in the unit needs to have a plasmagun for you to truthfully say yes to that question.

So in conclusion the Canticles work and effect the entire unit.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
The issue has nothing to do with faction. Canticles of the Omnissiah affect 'friendly units with the Canticles of the Omnissiah special rule'.

The question is whether the unit has the Canticles of the Omnissiah special rule if joined by a single Independent Character with the rule.

No, because Canticles of the Omnissiah is not a rule that can be granted.

The only real exception would be Incantation of the Iron Soul or Shroudpsalm, both of which grant things that can be shared out(Stubborn and Fearless, Stealth/Shrouded respectively) from what has been established in the main rulebook.

 Kanluwen wrote:
No, because Canticles of the Omnissiah is not a rule that can be granted.

This is irrelevant. Once again the issue is whether "a unit with this special rule/Canticles of the Omnissiah" requires the whole unit to have the rule.

Given we have the alternate wording of "a unit entirely composed of models with this special rule" it seems that it's not explicitly required - although given we also have the alternate wording of, "a unit with at least one model with this special rule" it's also not explicitly allowed.

The only real exception would be Incantation of the Iron Soul or Shroudpsalm, both of which grant things that can be shared out(Stubborn and Fearless, Stealth/Shrouded respectively) from what has been established in the main rulebook.

The unit would still need the Canticles of the Omnissiah special rule. If you consider the unit does not have it just by the Tech Priest Dominus having it then, counting as part of that unit for all rules purposes, the Tech-Priest Dominus would not have it to confer any gained conferrable special rules.

Idk if i agree with that for USRs that specifically are noted as going to the unit.

Assuming that he can use the canticles on himself he would suddenly have those rules. Regardless of were he got them from the USR themselves say the unit would benefit.

If a model in a unit has a melta gun, the unit can be said to have a melta gun if the question is asked.

Similarly here. If the unit has 1 model, or all models, with the rule "Canticles...", the unit has the rule.

Absolutely nothing requires all members of the unit to have the rule.

Regardless, there are no other cult mech units in play, so canticles don't exist. Only a skitarii unit with an IC attached does. Not a cult unit and a skitarii unit. Without one cult unit, canticles can't be used. He's joined a skitarii unit. The skitarii haven't joined his unit. If they're separate, the dominus can use them on himself because there is at least one unit with canticles.

ICs can use the doctrinas though if attached to a skitarii unit. Each doctrina starts with "...all friendly models in units with the doctrina imperatives...". The unit has it, and the dominus is a friendly model in the unit.

The unit only needs one model with canticles for it to be a "unit with..."

Nelson Mechanized wrote:
Regardless, there are no other cult mech units in play, so canticles don't exist. Only a skitarii unit with an IC attached does. Not a cult unit and a skitarii unit. Without one cult unit, canticles can't be used. He's joined a skitarii unit. The skitarii haven't joined his unit. If they're separate, the dominus can use them on himself because there is at least one unit with canticles.

ICs can use the doctrinas though if attached to a skitarii unit. Each doctrina starts with "...all friendly models in units with the doctrina imperatives...". The unit has it, and the dominus is a friendly model in the unit.

It is not about whether the unit is Cult Mech or not. It is whether the unit has the canticles special rule. Which it undeniably does.

The IC rules entry is quite specific. Just as it says with stubborn. "When a unit contains at least one model with...". If it contains those words, it confers. That's the BRB's example. It's meant to keep people from double dipping. Same with dunestrider getting handed to attached ICs. Trying to justify double dipping by arguing that GW 'meant' the same thing even though it isn't printed that way.

So no, the skitarii vangaurd unit doesn't have the canticles special rule, dominus or not. The rule doesn't say "...at least one model with..."

I play Skitarii with the dominus maniple, skitarii maniple, and an allied detachment of grey knights. Wouldn't it seem rather cheap if I stuck Crowe or even worse, Draigo, with sicarians to tank and also gave either of them dunestrider? Draigo, on top of all of his nonsense, can also potentially move 33" a turn.

Nelson Mechanized wrote:
The IC rules entry is quite specific. Just as it says with stubborn. "When a unit contains at least one model with...". If it contains those words, it confers.

True, but that exact phrase is not a requirement. It is used for rules meant to be able go between IC and unit without regard of possession.

However, it is a mistake to think that is the only way. ICs are still part of the unit when a unit's unit-affecting rule applies a benefit. All it means in these other cases is that an IC cannot bring their unit's unit-affecting rules in to play to a UNIT they join. Their IC unit is subsumed by the identity of the unit they join, and if that unit does not have the rule, than that unitusually cannot benefit.

Nelson Mechanized wrote:
The IC rules entry is quite specific. Just as it says with stubborn. "When a unit contains at least one model with...". If it contains those words, it confers. That's the BRB's example. It's meant to keep people from double dipping. Same with dunestrider getting handed to attached ICs. Trying to justify double dipping by arguing that GW 'meant' the same thing even though it isn't printed that way.

So no, the skitarii vangaurd unit doesn't have the canticles special rule, dominus or not. The rule doesn't say "...at least one model with..."

I play Skitarii with the dominus maniple, skitarii maniple, and an allied detachment of grey knights. Wouldn't it seem rather cheap if I stuck Crowe or even worse, Draigo, with sicarians to tank and also gave either of them dunestrider? Draigo, on top of all of his nonsense, can also potentially move 33" a turn.

We're not talking about what GW meant but what they wrote. If a unit contains a model with a special rule, prove that the unit does not have that special rule.

I still don't see were people are getting that just because the dominus joins a unit he loses the canticles rule. He has it in his profile and nothing seems to indicate that he magically loses it when he joins another unit.

By the above logic he would regain it if he split off then lose it when he joins another non admech unit, then if he split off again magically regain it.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I still don't see were people are getting that just because the dominus joins a unit he loses the canticles rule. He has it in his profile and nothing seems to indicate that he magically loses it when he joins another unit.

By the above logic he would regain it if he split off then lose it when he joins another non admech unit, then if he split off again magically regain it.

He doesn't lose it, but his unit does not gain it. See the difference?

It has to do with unit identity more than anything.

I agree his unit doesn't get it. But he still has the rule so he could still use them. If he used it to give himself a USR that specifically states that it confers to an entire unit if one member has it then the vanguard would get it.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I agree his unit doesn't get it. But he still has the rule so he could still use them. If he used it to give himself a USR that specifically states that it confers to an entire unit if one member has it then the vanguard would get it.

It depends on how the rule is written. If it is "A unit with this rule", then he could only access it when he is his own unit, and not when part of a unit without it.

Charistoph wrote:
It depends on how the rule is written. If it is "A unit with this rule", then he could only access it when he is his own unit, and not when part of a unit without it.

Basically are you saying that if for example a Tech-Priest Dominus (with Canticles of the Omnissiah) joins a Skitarii Vanguard or Rangers unit (without Canticles of the Omnissiah) then per counting as part of a unit without the rule the unit does not have the rule for the purposes of "...units with the Canticles of the Omnissiah special rule...", but that if for example an Autarch (without Flickerjump) joins a unit of Warp Spiders (with Flickerjump) then per counting as part of a unit with the rule the unit does have the rule for the purposes of "A unit with this (Flickerjump) special rule..."

?

Because that is how I have a feeling it should be, but am not sure it's explicitly so, which I alluded to earlier by not really coming to a conclusion either way.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
It depends on how the rule is written. If it is "A unit with this rule", then he could only access it when he is his own unit, and not when part of a unit without it.

Basically are you saying that if for example a Tech-Priest Dominus (with Canticles of the Omnissiah) joins a Skitarii Vanguard or Rangers unit (without Canticles of the Omnissiah) then per counting as part of a unit without the rule the unit does not have the rule for the purposes of "...units with the Canticles of the Omnissiah special rule...", but that if for example an Autarch (without Flickerjump) joins a unit of Warp Spiders (with Flickerjump) then per counting as part of a unit with the rule the unit does have the rule for the purposes of "A unit with this (Flickerjump) special rule..."

?

Because that is how I have a feeling it should be, but am not sure it's explicitly so, which I alluded to earlier by not really coming to a conclusion either way.

Correct, because the UNIT does not have the rule. Datasheet Special Rules are applied a bit differently then before. Just because the Dominus joins the unit, the unit does not gain the rule. Just like when a Stubborn Dark Angel Captain joins a Blood Angels Tactical Squad, the Tactical Squad does not gain Stubborn.

The difference between Canticles and Stubborn is that Stubborn will benefit any unit that has a model with the Special Rule, while Canticles requires units with the rule. Remember how the IC joins the unit, not the unit joining the IC.

Special Rules operate on one of four levels: Solitary (the base condition and only applies to the models), One Way (Unit with this Special Rule..., or IC with this Special Rule and any unit it joins...), Two Way (A unit with at least one model with this Special Rule...), and Full Unit (A unit composed entirely of models with this special rule...).

It's just following what the rules say they do and remembering the relationship between ICs and units.

Charistoph how do units get rules?

Christoph - so a model with a meltagun means the unit does not have a meltagun?

 FlingitNow wrote:
Charistoph how do units get rules?

From either its datasheet, a Formation Datasheet, or Detachment Command Benefit that it is a part of.

Where is that written?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In reference to units having special rules rather than models that is.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Where is that written?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In reference to units having special rules rather than models that is.

Datasheet Legend and Command Benefits rules.

I should add that it is not a "rather than" relationship, though.

Got a page reference?