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I still have some of the first plastic releases from the era of 6th edition. If I remember correctly they were about $16-20 for a plastic regiment of 16 elves. Then they went up to $24 or so.

It really is an amazement to me that they have any customers left at all. I lament my poverty.

 JamesY wrote:

 Vermis wrote:

It doesn't surprise me, with GW's faux-maturity imagery and rules lists tailored to kids. Wait 'til he's about, oh, 18-20.

Faux-maturity? What on Earth are you on about Vermis? I don't see them making any effort to dress their toy soldiers up as 'mature' (except with the pricing.) I dropped out of the hobby at 18, got back into it at 30. Started off buying non gw. For the last two years, I don't think I've bought a single non gw model (excluding scenery). The level of detail and flexibility of the kits is (to me) worth the price. Don't try to make personal preference a matter of maturity, it's patronizing.

Still wouldn't buy those dwarves though.

Adding skulls to everything.
Names like Blood tide and Wrathmongers.
The idea that chaos are now cannibals.

There is a lot of stuff that GW seem to be putting in to appeal to the younger crowd by making it look mature to a 13 year old, but once you hit say 17 you start seeing it as childish.

This can't be serious.... right?

Anyone care to tell me why Retributor Armour Spray is $10 more per can than any of the other spray paints?

T

timd wrote:
Anyone care to tell me why Retributor Armour Spray is $10 more per can than any of the other spray paints?

Metallic paints cost more to make because they contain flecks of actual metal, rather than just pigments. I don't believe the aerosol sprays are part of GW's vertical integration, so it ends up costing GW more to have that product made. GW contacts an outside company to do it, they create it and then ship it to GW for GW to then distribute, which is more expensive than if they just made it in house like Krylon or Testors do. GW sells fewer stock of it since it is only sold through GW's distribution channels (unlike Krylon which sells to Walmart and Home Depot in massive bulk), making the individual cost of each aerosol more expensive. Finally, GW isn't willing to sell at a loss or limited profit because it is expensive for them to produce and unsold goods could end up costing them a lot of money. I believe they also sell their goods to retailers at a 50% discount off the MSRP, so if it cost them $2 more, they sell it for $5 more, and you end up paying $10 more. The paint pots (.5 oz versus the spray's 10 oz) cost $1 more as well.

(I have no idea, really, but I assume it's more expensive for GW, so it is more expensive for you)

timd wrote:
This can't be serious.... right?

Anyone care to tell me why Retributor Armour Spray is $10 more per can than any of the other spray paints?

T

Because it's one of the top 10 things we love about AoS, of course!

Leadbelcher metallic is 19.50 and Retribution Armor is $28 on the US site (and an amazingly silly $48 for the poor Aussies...).

T

 Sqorgar wrote:

timd wrote:
Anyone care to tell me why Retributor Armour Spray is $10 more per can than any of the other spray paints?

Metallic paints cost more to make because they contain flecks of actual metal, rather than just pigments. I don't believe the aerosol sprays are part of GW's vertical integration, so it ends up costing GW more to have that product made. GW contacts an outside company to do it, they create it and then ship it to GW for GW to then distribute, which is more expensive than if they just made it in house like Krylon or Testors do. GW sells fewer stock of it since it is only sold through GW's distribution channels (unlike Krylon which sells to Walmart and Home Depot in massive bulk), making the individual cost of each aerosol more expensive. Finally, GW isn't willing to sell at a loss or limited profit because it is expensive for them to produce and unsold goods could end up costing them a lot of money. I believe they also sell their goods to retailers at a 50% discount off the MSRP, so if it cost them $2 more, they sell it for $5 more, and you end up paying $10 more. The paint pots (.5 oz versus the spray's 10 oz) cost $1 more as well.

(I have no idea, really, but I assume it's more expensive for GW, so it is more expensive for you)

 Sqorgar wrote:

(I have no idea, really, but I assume it's more expensive for GW, so it is more expensive for you)

A bad assumption to make with GW's pricing policies.

OK, there's some interesting back and forth here. Both sides seem to have some merit, I'd like to toss in my 2 cents (I spent the rest on minis).

Personally, I come from an RPG background, but like the wargaming side of tabletop gaming too. It seems that painting and building terrain and battling with interesting rules are all an important part of the hobby.

Games Workshop makes cool figures, even if they have too many fiddly bits in some of the more modern pieces. Heck, I'll admit to direct ordering an Empire Free Company box (Which I'd venture to call reasonably, if premium, priced at $1.75 a figure right now). They generally fit nicely into multifaceted settings and have interesting designs, even if some of the more expensive stuff is really rather silly. One could buy another company's miniatures, but an Old Glory Landsknecht isn't an Empire Greatswordsman, not matter how much time you spend painting him up like a Carroburg Greatsword trooper. For me at least, knowing that the product was made in the UK makes it worth a bit more, I'm just the sort of person who goes out of the way for a "made in the USA" tag so I know that the people who made whatever I'm buying were treated fairly by their employers and governments. It may have been to avoid piracy, but I believe GW practices moral manufacturing. It's also really nice to be part of a big shared make believe that spreads across boarders. You can show up anywhere Warhammer is being played and start talking about your Empire regiment something unique that doesn't exist in total isolation. That's pretty cool. One more point is that quite honestly, buying new is more enjoyable. It's way more fun that scraping the mold lines off some rando's poorly assembled, half primed, brutalized minis.

That being said, there's a reason most of my GW figures are from Ebay. It's just plain silly that, say a plastic Dire Avenger costs more than a plastic Guardian. Not only are the prices premium, but they're blatantly inconsistent. A plastic figure is a plastic figure. It would seem to be very odd that one would cost more than the other. Sure you need more guardians or State troops or whatever to field a legal army than you do Dire Avengers or Knights Panther or what have you, so GW sells less, but that doesn't make the product worth more. To be fair, GW paid the same for both molds, and does have to make their money back and then some on both. That's capitalism, and that's a good thing. But I'm not sure that varied prices are definitely the way to go. I'm a comics fan, and I'm aware that the associated costs are different, maybe the comparison's bad, but it seems fair. When I go to buy a Justice Society of America TPB, it doesn't cost more than a Batman comic even though it cost the same to have print runs for both series set up and DC definitely sells more Batman. Instead, the company accepts that they're making good money off a quality product, even if Alan Scott and Jay Garrick aren't heavy hitters when it comes to sales like Bruce Wayne is. Also, I like a company that doesn't think I by their product because I enjoy giving them money. That's a weird thing to say in a court of law.

I like painting miniatures. I like pushing miniatures across a table and rolling dice and laughing at that super inconvenient failed morale test, and debating the merits of Reikland and Averland, or picking the perfect pose for that champion. It's hard to enjoy paying through the nose for plastic dudes, even if they're way nicer than the competition. So sometimes you just don't buy, and that's life. At the end of the day, the minis are just stuff, they're not overly important. But that doesn't mean they aren't fun, and that it's not OK to be just a bit miffed about not being able to do something new with your hobby because of Byzantine business practices. Good things are meant to be enjoyed, and that's hard when you feel actual guilt about considering shelling out $40 for an infantry figure.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 JamesY wrote:

 Vermis wrote:

It doesn't surprise me, with GW's faux-maturity imagery and rules lists tailored to kids. Wait 'til he's about, oh, 18-20.

Faux-maturity? What on Earth are you on about Vermis? I don't see them making any effort to dress their toy soldiers up as 'mature' (except with the pricing.) I dropped out of the hobby at 18, got back into it at 30. Started off buying non gw. For the last two years, I don't think I've bought a single non gw model (excluding scenery). The level of detail and flexibility of the kits is (to me) worth the price. Don't try to make personal preference a matter of maturity, it's patronizing.

Still wouldn't buy those dwarves though.

Adding skulls to everything.
Names like Blood tide and Wrathmongers.
The idea that chaos are now cannibals.

There is a lot of stuff that GW seem to be putting in to appeal to the younger crowd by making it look mature to a 13 year old, but once you hit say 17 you start seeing it as childish.

Maybe, I wasn't considering it from the perspective of a 13 yr old. It's exactly those things that made me think 'where is this attempted maturity?'

 jonolikespie wrote:


The idea that chaos are now cannibals.

One specific subsect of Chaos worshippers., and that's pretty clear it's a subjugation method.

Pretty rich comment from a guy who's WFB army of choice was all about murder, torture and being 'evil'.

Rather than music, a better simile would be cars.
If cost was the only factor, people would only ever drive a 4th-hand Prius. Yet Audi and BMW continue to sell high-end vehicles.

This is a luxury hobby. Completely ephemeral and non-essential. You pay (or don't) whatever you want.
Mantic's KoW range is, for the large part, utterly laughable in terms of quality. But it's *cheap*.
GW's mini quality is streets ahead, even if you don't like specific elements of the style. But as seen here, many consider the prices laughable.

PP are the only company churning out minis on a par with GW in terms of quality and rate, and the pricing there varies between not-particularly-cheap and stupid.

Unlike WFB, AoS doesn't *require* units of 20+ minis to be playable.
You can play a good game with less than 20 minis a side.
I'm not going to pretend I'm in the know on their business or anyone else's, but if you produce a luxury item that requires fewer units to be shifted, the cost is generally higher.

You pays your money, you makes your choice. But to approach a hobby *solely* from a cost perspective, to me, is weird.

RoperPG wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

The idea that chaos are now cannibals.

One specific subsect of Chaos worshippers., and that's pretty clear it's a subjugation method.

The point I was making though was that is something that might seem 'mature' to a kid, but an adult might simply view it as silly.

RoperPG wrote:
Pretty rich comment from a guy who's WFB army of choice was all about murder, torture and being 'evil'.

No, Dark Elves are, or rather were, about being proud, arrogant, and wanting to reclaim a throne and homeland they considered rightfully theirs.

RoperPG wrote:
You pays your money, you makes your choice. But to approach a hobby *solely* from a cost perspective, to me, is weird.

I'd happily pay GWs prices if I thought their models were as good as they say they are. But I don't.
Corvus Belli and PP both put out much cheaper products and, in my opinion, CB's models are way ahead of GW's and PP's new stuff they have been putting out in on-sprue plastic and their new metal/resins have now put them above GW too.

Cost is far from the only factor, but quality of the models don't make up for it in GW's case, and they just nuked the fluff that previously did make up for it imo.

 jonolikespie wrote:

RoperPG wrote:
Pretty rich comment from a guy who's WFB army of choice was all about murder, torture and being 'evil'.

No, Dark Elves are, or rather were, about being proud, arrogant, and wanting to reclaim a throne and homeland they considered rightfully theirs.

Via murder, torture and being 'evil'.

thekingofkings wrote:
Its things like these prices and the cost of their entry fees for their "events" is why PP is stomping GW into the dirt.

PP has about 3% of GWs revenue. I wouldn't call that "stomping into the dirt".

RoperPG wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:


The idea that chaos are now cannibals.

One specific subsect of Chaos worshippers., and that's pretty clear it's a subjugation method.

Pretty rich comment from a guy who's WFB army of choice was all about murder, torture and being 'evil'.

Rather than music, a better simile would be cars.
If cost was the only factor, people would only ever drive a 4th-hand Prius. Yet Audi and BMW continue to sell high-end vehicles.

This is a luxury hobby. Completely ephemeral and non-essential. You pay (or don't) whatever you want.
Mantic's KoW range is, for the large part, utterly laughable in terms of quality. But it's *cheap*.
GW's mini quality is streets ahead, even if you don't like specific elements of the style. But as seen here, many consider the prices laughable.

PP are the only company churning out minis on a par with GW in terms of quality and rate, and the pricing there varies between not-particularly-cheap and stupid.

Unlike WFB, AoS doesn't *require* units of 20+ minis to be playable.
You can play a good game with less than 20 minis a side.
I'm not going to pretend I'm in the know on their business or anyone else's, but if you produce a luxury item that requires fewer units to be shifted, the cost is generally higher.

You pays your money, you makes your choice. But to approach a hobby *solely* from a cost perspective, to me, is weird.

That "pretty rich" sentence is suppose to mean what? Because apart from being a flimsy ad hominem, that ain't much.

But I agree, AoS surely doesn't require units of 20+ minis ,that's why they are pricing 18 models at 140£, right? 140£, which is exactly twice the price of a FB battalion which, coincidentally, in most cases contains almost three times the miniatures (the one that contains the least models is the Ogre K. one at 16 models). So, for 140£ we went from 98 models (I am using the HE one) to 18. Sounds legit. Thank feth for AoS needing less models!

What I find it weirdest is when someone keeps trying to justify these mindblowing price increases.

RoperPG wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

RoperPG wrote:
Pretty rich comment from a guy who's WFB army of choice was all about murder, torture and being 'evil'.

No, Dark Elves are, or rather were, about being proud, arrogant, and wanting to reclaim a throne and homeland they considered rightfully theirs.

Via murder, torture and being 'evil'.

It's not two dimensional and childish though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mymearan wrote:

thekingofkings wrote:
Its things like these prices and the cost of their entry fees for their "events" is why PP is stomping GW into the dirt.

PP has about 3% of GWs revenue. I wouldn't call that "stomping into the dirt".

You're right.

X wing and FFG is a MUCH better example of a company "stomping GW into the dirt"

 jonolikespie wrote:

RoperPG wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

RoperPG wrote:
Pretty rich comment from a guy who's WFB army of choice was all about murder, torture and being 'evil'.

No, Dark Elves are, or rather were, about being proud, arrogant, and wanting to reclaim a throne and homeland they considered rightfully theirs.

Via murder, torture and being 'evil'.

It's not two dimensional and childish though.

Neither is the example you gave. I'd you're going to paint in broad strokes, at least accept others will too.

RoperPG wrote:
Neither is the example you gave. I'd you're going to paint in broad strokes, at least accept others will too.

To each his own, but I stand by my point that Dark Elves are a well thought out army that is simply not a good faction, the torture and whatnot is just an aspect of that.

The more recent chaos stuff, Khorne specifically, is very two dimensional and takes the 'skulls and blood everywhere' thing to a whole new level.

All the elf races have a quite in-depth 'political' background, but their hook is a few external features.

Khorne is, well, Khorne. There's only so much nuance you can apply to blood, fighting and more blood and fighting.

But you stated Chaos, not Khorne, not Bloodreavers.
I'd suggest that Tzeentch and Slaanesh are pretty complex concepts, and even Nurgle to an extent - but their external attributes boil down to rainbow fire, perviness and lurgy respectively.

GW games have always been about heavy metal.

RoperPG wrote:

I'd suggest that Tzeentch and Slaanesh are pretty complex concepts, and even Nurgle to an extent - but their external attributes boil down to rainbow fire, perviness and lurgy respectively.

Actually I'd rank Nurgle has one of their most complex concepts.

If you think that's overpriced take a look at the Varanguard. Beautiful models but €80 for 3 cavalry? -Madness

I don't think the Varanguard are overpriced if you compare them to some of the individual blister-pack heroes that are around the £20 mark (looking at the Stormcast and Khorne models in particular)

Each one is basically as good if not better than a typical hero, each one is also quite a bit larger.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And for all the moans over GW's pricing, anyone can quite easily buy a copy of the starter set for £60 from the likes of Element Games, that contains certainly enough to get 2 armies going, for the Khorne side you can quite easily supplement that with the Khorne starter boxed set for £40.
£100 in total for a decent sized Khorne army and the makings of a Stormcast one, plus free rules for every model.
And they're releasing the 300+ page Chaos book for £20!

Yes there's models at the other end of the spectrum price wise but they are certainly also making it accessible at a low price point as well.

PP have this big thing just releases for $124.99 and doesn't even come close to GW kits.

Hero606v2 wrote:

Yes there's models at the other end of the spectrum price wise but they are certainly also making it accessible at a low price point as well.

I think this is a very good point and falls into the new CEO's comment of experimenting with new pricing structures (or something to that effect).

AoS isn't cheap across the board (far from it) but GW are making an effort to have low entry options. The starter set, the getting started boxes, the free rules, this new softback warscroll book, and the legacy WHFB models.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

RoperPG wrote:

I'd suggest that Tzeentch and Slaanesh are pretty complex concepts, and even Nurgle to an extent - but their external attributes boil down to rainbow fire, perviness and lurgy respectively.

Actually I'd rank Nurgle has one of their most complex concepts.

I phrased as such because I think Tzeentch and Slaanesh are more frequently misunderstood.
As far as Nurgle goes, anyone who's ordered a pizza instead of going to the gym (and not felt guilty about it) is on the right track..

 jonolikespie wrote:

Adding skulls to everything.
Names like Blood tide and Wrathmongers.
The idea that chaos are now cannibals.

There is a lot of stuff that GW seem to be putting in to appeal to the younger crowd by making it look mature to a 13 year old, but once you hit say 17 you start seeing it as childish.

Thank you, Jono. Nail on the head. Doesn't mean I'm not going to waffle on about it some more, though.

It's like that quote by C S Lewis, the one that might be running through your head, James: "when I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." It's usually trotted out in defence of gaming with toy soldiers, and that's perfectly fine. But some of the appeal of GW's flanderised imagery can easily be slotted under 'fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up'. Especially after reading the full quote.

Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.

The basic mistake, James, is assuming I meant 'faux-maturity' as other than a merely descriptive term.

Compared to whatever 'fairy tales' today's 'ten year olds' are coming off, tooth-gritting he-men and weird skully creatures doing ultraviolence at eachother probably seems dead grown-up. It's Masters of the Universe or Inhumanoids, with bells on; it's comics from the nineties; it's the A-Team loosing more ammo than a small war (and still managing to miss the baddies); it's Dragonball Z going over nine thousaaand. Sheer violence and show of power. That's what's exciting and impressive, and admired as the 'grown up' way. I know I used to feel the same way when I was wee, and I doubt I'm alone here.

But it's one of AoS's many failings - the player base that arguably kept GW going and promoted their games, is generally a bit too grown up to be very concerned about being grown up. At least in that OTT grimdark way.
WFB at least, had plenty of more diverse, understated - even mundane - holdovers, history and even humour from earlier editions, and a fair bit of nostalgia keeping most of it there. AoS dumped that, along with almost everything else. Almost. You could say the main theme GW kept for AoS is that flanderised, unironic glorification of frothing musclemen and fighting for the sake of fighting* that developed in their games, arguably tailored to a narrow demographic that doesn't seem to be paying much attention anyway. This, IMO, is why we're seeing an overall lukewarm reception (at best) of new AoS releases, in the news board. They're not designed for the age range that happens to post at Dakka.

* I still can't get over the fluff for that Oighear campaign.

TL;DR: it's not that AoS is a childish thing, it's that it's a childish thing inexpertly dressed up as a 'grown up' thing.

And for a bonus moan, it goes for the rules lists I mentioned too. Young brains filling with synapses, able to soak up loads of info, stats and rules, but without the prefrontal development to make situational judgements with them. 40K especially, leans towards this, with a relatively bald, unchallenging, IGOUGO move-shoot-thump procedure, and most of the important decisions taking place in the list of units and their (many, many) special rules that you can mathammer together. AoS doubles down on it - the four pages of core rules barely even matter compared to the 'warscrolls'. You don't even need maths for the army lists any more, just money to buy the books with the 'right' lists, and more money to buy the minis for them.

It's a matter of whether there are enough young brains (with deep pockets) looking in AoS' direction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jonolikespie wrote:

RoperPG wrote:
Pretty rich comment from a guy who's WFB army of choice was all about murder, torture and being 'evil'.

No, Dark Elves are, or rather were, about being proud, arrogant, and wanting to reclaim a throne and homeland they considered rightfully theirs.

I'd hazard it's part of that flanderisation. I'm actually starting a small dark elf force myself, also based more on the themes Jono went for. More grim elves than murderdeathkillstabstabstab elves. (And khornates who are about martial prowess and honour rather than... murderdeathkillstabstabstab)
While I'm on that note, I snagged the - 7th ed? - army book off ebay for a bit more in-depth fluff. Parts of it read like what not to do. In the bit about Hag Graef...

... Dark Elves like to see their slaves cold and starving, their wills broken, and enjoy beating them all the harder when they collapse from thirst and starvation.

That's ridiculous. It makes Slaver's Bay in ASoIaF seem like a beacon of humanitarian benificence and economic genius. Roper, are you suggesting that this is the kind of fluff that people went for and made them start a dark elf army, compared to their bitter history with high elves and such? I know the cult of Khaine, witch elves etc. have had some history in the dark elf fluff, but was it always this over-the-top, without a hint of a knowing wink?

And is it the kind of thing that'll keep AoS going?

Hero606v2 wrote:I don't think the Varanguard are overpriced if you compare them to some of the individual blister-pack heroes that are around the £20 mark (looking at the Stormcast and Khorne models in particular)

Each one is basically as good if not better than a typical hero, each one is also quite a bit larger.

I'm not entirely sure if GW's hero pricing is the best comparison.

And for all the moans over GW's pricing, anyone can quite easily buy a copy of the starter set for £60 from the likes of Element Games, that contains certainly enough to get 2 armies going, for the Khorne side you can quite easily supplement that with the Khorne starter boxed set for £40.
£100 in total for a decent sized Khorne army and the makings of a Stormcast one, plus free rules for every model.

One-and-a-bit armies, okay. What happens if you want to play duardin?

Yes there's models at the other end of the spectrum price wise but they are certainly also making it accessible at a low price point as well.

I have a feeling Lithlandris' 18 models bit might have already trumped that.

So what's a better price point if you happen to want to play duardin? (Or, heck, any of the new factions outside the starter set, or bloodreavers) Five hearthguard at £25? Ten vulkite berzerkers at £35? Both usable forces for AoS in themselves, I gather. How much of a game are you going to get with 5-10 models, all with basically the same profile, backed up with four pages of extremely thin rules? It honestly, genuinely, sounds like tortuous boredom to me.
You need more models, more variety. And likely a book or two to compete, when someone pulls a formation special rule on you. It's like 'free' online games - yeah, you can play with the bare basics, but it's not going to be anywhere near as easy or enjoyable if you don't shell out for extras.

For a pound more than the price of a box of five fyreslayer hearthguard, I can get a couple of metal Frostgrave wizards and a box of twenty plastic soldiers to back them up. (The quality ain't that much lower than AoS, no matter how fixated you are on GW) I need a £15 book too, but that's only slightly more inevitable than the need to buy a £20-30 AoS... 'battletome'. Still comes in cheaper than the AoS starter, too, without that.
I'm not even particularly wowed by Frostgrave, but as a comparison example of price vs. depth of games that don't particularly wow me, it wins out over AoS.

RoperPG wrote:


Khorne is, well, Khorne. There's only so much nuance you can apply to blood, fighting and more blood and fighting.

Honestly, there IS a bit of nuance - it's just that GW stopped using it fairly early on. Wasn't early Khorne less of the 'cares not from where the blood flows' and more warriors seeking worthy challenges and the best skull to give to Khorne? You could do a pretty neat Khorne concept with that. Say, one of the world's greatest warriors, fighting in his god's name, but slowly being subsumed over the years...being remade in the image of Khorne (as Chaos tends to do) and -

Waitaminnit. :p

There was a throwaway bit of fluff in a timeline about a Chaos champion - who I'm pretty sure was Khornate - leading a raid on a particularly nasty Bretonnian noble's domain. He ended up in a duel with the noble, and the women of the village came out to cheer...for the Chaos champion. After killing the Bret, he ended up leaving everything else untouched. I always liked that one.

Hero606v2 wrote:
I don't think the Varanguard are overpriced if you compare them to some of the individual blister-pack heroes that are around the £20 mark (looking at the Stormcast and Khorne models in particular)

Each one is basically as good if not better than a typical hero, each one is also quite a bit larger.

Well if you're make that comparison then no they aren't overpriced, but I'd be more inclined to compare them to similar sized elite mounted unit models like Thunderwolf Cavalry & Bloodcrushers...which are 55% the price per model

 Vermis wrote:
What happens if you want to play duardin?

Well... I want to drive an Aston Martin, but I have to settle for a knackered old Jag. If you want something specific, you normally have to pay for it and arguing against GW's pricing is like howling at the moon. It will never be productive.

 Vermis wrote:

(Or, heck, any of the new factions outside the starter set, or bloodreavers)

To be fair, if you went for Sylvaneth, Pestilens or Seraphon, they are all very reasonably priced (relatively speaking, natch). But if you want the brand new shiny thing... then, yes, you will pay more. That remains true in many, many fields.

 Vermis wrote:
And likely a book or two to compete,

Compete? It is at this point I start to think that you are not an AoS player

 Vermis wrote:


For a pound more than the price of a box of five fyreslayer hearthguard, I can get a couple of metal Frostgrave wizards and a box of twenty plastic soldiers to back them up.

This is all true. However, if your thing is Warhammer, those wizards and soldiers are not going to help. It is like playing WWII Bolt Action and seeing cheap models for WWI. They just won't help, however reasonably priced they are.

This... isn't really an argument we are all having. If you are really into Warhammer, you will want the Warhammer models. If you are not fussed, you might well choose a cheaper route.

One side is not going to convince the other here, because you are both right...

 wuestenfux wrote:
These guys have just one life point and their ward save of 4++ is not a real life savior.

yes but their point value is very low