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 Mymearan wrote:

Hero606v2 wrote:
In the UK the SCGT AOS event sold 125 tickets in the first 30 minutes of going on sale.

That's insane! 125 people has to be one of the biggest miniature gaming events in the UK?

I know I am sick, so I am not sure how to read this. Is this suppose to be serious? If not is this sarcasm? Where is the laughing face then? Without the laughing face I want to say something but before I comment I would like to know what Mymearan ment.

Davor wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:

Hero606v2 wrote:
In the UK the SCGT AOS event sold 125 tickets in the first 30 minutes of going on sale.

That's insane! 125 people has to be one of the biggest miniature gaming events in the UK?

I know I am sick, so I am not sure how to read this. Is this suppose to be serious? If not is this sarcasm? Where is the laughing face then? Without the laughing face I want to say something but before I comment I would like to know what Mymearan ment.

Which tournaments are bigger then? I'm genuinely curious.

I read it all wrong, so glad I asked first Mymearan. Thanks for replying.

I guess I shouldn't have written "events" since two people misunderstood me! I meant tournaments.

 infinite_array wrote:


Additionally - I still think it's funny that a 4 page ruleset needs 30+ pages of rules/FAQs to run a tournament.

The rules/FAQs section are 7 pages long, all 1 column so overall around a similar size to the actual AOS rules.

Hero606v2 wrote:

 infinite_array wrote:


Additionally - I still think it's funny that a 4 page ruleset needs 30+ pages of rules/FAQs to run a tournament.

The rules/FAQs section are 7 pages long, all 1 column so overall around a similar size to the actual AOS rules.

In addition to the 15 page long pool cost document, and the 17 page long battleplan pack.

And the hundreds of pages of war scrolls...this is a silly conversation.

 infinite_array wrote:

Hero606v2 wrote:

 infinite_array wrote:


Additionally - I still think it's funny that a 4 page ruleset needs 30+ pages of rules/FAQs to run a tournament.

The rules/FAQs section are 7 pages long, all 1 column so overall around a similar size to the actual AOS rules.

In addition to the 15 page long pool cost document, and the 17 page long battleplan pack.

Yea because no other games have scenario packs for tournaments...

Edit: yes, this is indeed the silliest conversation!

 Mymearan wrote:

Davor wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:

Hero606v2 wrote:
In the UK the SCGT AOS event sold 125 tickets in the first 30 minutes of going on sale.

That's insane! 125 people has to be one of the biggest miniature gaming events in the UK?

I know I am sick, so I am not sure how to read this. Is this suppose to be serious? If not is this sarcasm? Where is the laughing face then? Without the laughing face I want to say something but before I comment I would like to know what Mymearan ment.

Which tournaments are bigger then? I'm genuinely curious.

Most historical tournaments attract about 10 to 50 players.

Some of the Ancients leagues are bigger but they are multi-round events held over months.

 Mymearan wrote:


Yea because no other games have scenario packs for tournaments...

Edit: yes, this is indeed the silliest conversation!

Sure, but none them them need to be that size.

Even the SCGT 2015 pack for WHFB wasn't that big.

And the conversation steered away from the original - you asked if there where any other tournaments that size, I put one up as an example (and was promptly ignored - no surprise there).

Honestly, however, I am interested in seeing how the event turns out, and how large 2017's event is.

 pax macharia wrote:
Didn't this thread start as another price gripefest? And now it's focused on tournaments after 15 pages? My favorite part though is how you don't know what the thread is about until you look cause of the vague title, very digg/reddit-esque.

Lol. Anyone joining the thread with a gripe about the cost would now look off topic.

 infinite_array wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:


Yea because no other games have scenario packs for tournaments...

Edit: yes, this is indeed the silliest conversation!

Sure, but none them them need to be that size.

Even the SCGT 2015 pack for WHFB wasn't that big.

And the conversation steered away from the original - you asked if there where any other tournaments that size, I put one up as an example (and was promptly ignored - no surprise there).

Honestly, however, I am interested in seeing how the event turns out, and how large 2017's event is.

If you're talking about your guild ball example, I was going to post that it's awesome that it has gotten so much traction in such a short time, and that it looks like a great game, but I simple forgot to post it. What's with the "no surprise there" comment?

Not sure the point of this thread. Prices are relative to everyone's disposable income and no one is forcing anyone to buy models. $8.00 a model doesn't seem expensive to everyone. If they are outside your price range simply don't purchase them. The same goes for Forgeworld models which people complain about their prices.

Yes AoS has seen some recent positive growth markers with some very large upcoming tournaments. AoS is obviously not the flop some people predicted and many people seem to enjoy it. Overall, play it if you want or not. Everyone will have differing opinions.

broxus wrote:
Not sure the point of this thread. Prices are relative to everyone's disposable income and no one is forcing anyone to buy models. $8.00 a model doesn't seem expensive to everyone. If they are outside your price range simply don't purchase them. The same goes for Forgeworld models which people complain about their prices.

Yes AoS has seen some recent positive growth markers with some very large upcoming tournaments. AoS is obviously not the flop some people predicted and many people seem to enjoy it. Overall, play it if you want or not. Everyone will have differing opinions.

True, might be time to shoot 'ol Yeller(non-Americans might know this?) and start a new thread.

Here’s the reason for the thread.

Back in the early 1980s when Citadel was set up, the standard price for a 25mm wargame figure was 20p. Ctadel figures cost 25p, but they were individual characters and there wasn’t a lot of competition for fantasy/SF which was exploding in RPGs, so they were very popular, though not used for wargames.

By the early 2000s, companies like Wargames Foundry had been set up by ex-Citadel people and were making wargame figures and character figures priced at about £1. The equivalent GW figures were priced at £2.50.

This Tau Ethereal is an example. It’s a monopose single piece metal casting that cost me £2.50 in 2004.

http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/600x620/99800113015_TauEtherealNEW01.jpg

Compare this with the Wargames Foundry figures, which cost about £1 at the time, and were thought a bit pricy but worth it for wargamers. The Foundry figures are similar monopose single piece castings, in some cases they even may have been sculpted by the same designer.

So by 2004 GW figures had gone from 25% more expensive than similar wargame figures, to about 250% more expensive than similar character figures.

The Tau Ethereal is still available, now as a monopose Finecast figure, priced at £9.50. Its price is now 360% higher than 10 years ago, and with Foundry figures averaging about £1.75 -- a 175% increase -- the Ethereal figure is 480% more expensive than the Foundry characters.

The Tau Ethereal is one of the cheapest GW character figures. The most expensive is the AdMech Dominus, priced at £22. This is a monopose multi-part plastic figure.

I am not seeking to condemn or defend the GW prices, or to explain them, or to talk about personal preferences and perception of value for money. However I think this comparison throws light on the comparative pricing and helps to explain why people raise their eyebrows at the GW prices.

Just GW?
Chosen at random from Element Games Website:
Guildball Fisherman Starter set £19.76 for 3 minis.
WMH Khador Winterguard riflemen £31.46 for 10 minis.
Infinity Imperial Service Yu Jing Starter Pack £25.49 for 6 minis
AoS Chaos Warriors £20 for 16 minis.
KoW Abyssal Dwarf Decimators £17.99 for 20 minis.

Be careful with your choice of miniature when showcasing the evolution of price increases, Killkrazy. We need to look at a wide variety of miniatures to truly judge what sort of percentage the price increase has been, and to be honest there is such little rhyme or reason to it we are going to find conflicting messages from looking at different miniatures.

You used the Tau Ethereal as your example - I do not doubt that GW now charge a premium for character models that in the past they did not (although I do doubt it cost £2.50 in 2004, as opening White Dwarf from April 2003 (#280) shows Eldar Warlocks priced at £4 each, a farseer at £6 and a pheonix lord at £7.)

That same White Dwarf has a plastic boxset of Chaos Maurderer horsemen at £20 for 5 (£4 per model) - the updated set is £30 for 10 (£3 per model) - so in that instance GW has got 25% cheaper in 2003 to 2016...

...so yeah, we can't just base price increases off a single example because it goes both ways.

We see further price reductions when we look at metal to plastic - in this issue an Empire Pistolier is £6 per model, it's now £17.50 for 5 (£3.50 per model!!)

Of course it's possible to find models costing over £2 each from other companies, and it's possible to find GW models that cost under £2 each.

Generally speaking, though, GW models are surprisingly expensive. That's why people are surprised at how expensive they are.

The example of the Tau Ethereal can't be denied. It exists.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Of course it's possible to find models costing over £2 each from other companies, and it's possible to find GW models that cost under £2 each.

Generally speaking, though, GW models are surprisingly expensive. That's why people are surprised at how expensive they are.

The example of the Tau Ethereal can't be denied. It exists.

Can you post proof of it costing £2.50 in 2004? As I said its out of sync with the pricing of that era which saw character models at £4 and upwards.

Not until the weekend. I have to unearth the figure in its package from my loft.

Complaining about price is like a daily religious ritual in wargaming forums.

 Bottle wrote:


That same White Dwarf has a plastic boxset of Chaos Maurderer horsemen at £20 for 5 (£4 per model) - the updated set is £30 for 10 (£3 per model) - so in that instance GW has got 25% cheaper in 2003 to 2016...

Add in the Lord Heldrath kit too, which is about 31% off the new, cheaper prices (in CAD), and the cost of these same minis in a few weeks went down significantly.

The US 2004 catalog shows a Tau ethereal at $8. At 2004 exchange rates that would have been around £5. Though exchange rates are probably not overly relevant, they make for a rough guide.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Of course it's possible to find models costing over £2 each from other companies, and it's possible to find GW models that cost under £2 each.

Generally speaking, though, GW models are surprisingly expensive. That's why people are surprised at how expensive they are.

The example of the Tau Ethereal can't be denied. It exists.

I don't know. Most of the people I find who are surprised by the price of GW models only play GW games. PP models are as a rule very similar in price to comparable GW models, despite being (imo) lower quality sculpts and materials in general. Wyrd models have some nice sculpts (though assembly tends to be a pain), and some decent hard plastic (a bit brittle for some of thier fragile designs, but they're getting better), but they tend to be more expensive per model than GW equivalents. The only model company that consistently puts out cheaper models than GW as a general rule rather than a few case by case exceptions is Mantic, and 'quantity over quality' has always been their mantra.

This is not a knock on them - Mantic is producing the correct product for a battle level game. If you're going to be asking your players to collect, build, and paint dozens, even hundreds of models to play your game, then those models need to be cheap, and quick to assemble, and quick to paint, and GW's high price, high quality, high detail, multipart models have been a poor fit for battle scale games like warhammer fantasy for years. IMO it's the price of playing the games as a whole, not the price of individual models (with a few notable exceptions) that is most off putting about GW games. Age of Sigmar was arguably a step in the right direction (in this sense, if in no others), but if anything it didn't go far enough in bringing down game sizes if they want to be charging as much as they are for some of these kits.

There's lots of companies product mini's that cost consistently less than GW. Mantic is the most GW-Like though.

coldgaming wrote:
Add in the Lord Heldrath kit too, which is about 31% off the new, cheaper prices (in CAD), and the cost of these same minis in a few weeks went down significantly.

In the same material?

I think the main concern is some of the ridiculous over the top priced single figures GW produce.
I don''t think anyone's arguing that some of the (older) GW troop boxes aren't good value these days.

Here's an example:
These two sprues are similar in size and quality.



The top sprue is a Maelstrom's Edge Shadowwalker sprue. Cost = $6
The bottom one is a GW Grimwrath Berzerker. Cost = $30

The Shadow Walker contains 2 sets of legs to choose from, 2 bodies and 4 arm choices.
The Grimwrath Berzerker is monopose.

I'm not railing on GW. I just bought the Seraphon starter box. However, I will always build my boss units from one of the troop sprues. There is no way I would pay anything like the prices for GW's single figures.
In fact, I ensure I leave White Dwarf laying around the house for my wife to read. When she hears how much I've spent on a unit for Bolt Action, Kings of War, Deadzone or Maelstrom's Edge. She breathes a sigh of relief that they were "cheap".

I wouldn't call those the same quality. The top one looks like a troop kit not a character. They look like they're in totally different ballparks.

coldgaming wrote:
I wouldn't call those the same quality. The top one looks like a troop kit not a character. They look like they're in totally different ballparks.

Speaking as someone who has done plastic moulding for models, those two sprues are chalk and cheese.

coldgaming wrote:
I wouldn't call those the same quality. The top one looks like a troop kit not a character. They look like they're in totally different ballparks.

This. In terms of quality and design, this shadow warrior sprue reminds me of nothing so much as the 3rd edition dark eldar warrior kit. making it more than 17 years behind GW's current standard, and putting it next to the new grimwrath berzerker really highlights that. Quality-wise, these kits aren't even in the same ballpark.

I mean, look at that listless, lifeless pose; the soft, minimal detail; just everything about the shadow warrior model says it it belongs in a box of 10+ for the price of one of the GW hero kit that you put it next to. If anything, it's the Maelstrom kit that I find to be overpriced in this comparison, though, honestly, I think both of those models are priced beyond the bounds of reason for what you're getting. I wouldn't pay more than us$20 for the berzerker, and I wouldn't pay more than... I'm going to be honest, In 1998 I might have spent $5 for that shadow warrior, but today I wouldn't buy it at all.

Lol.
So... unless a figure is in some kind of prancing pose with an oversized weapon, it can't be modern or highly detailed?

A quality made figure doesn't mean it has to have skullacne you realise. It has to be detailed, have as few mold lines as possible and fit together well. If it can be posed, then that's extra.

I'm sure some of those super detailed airfix kits of ww2 spitfires my young lad builds that have been around for ages aren't quality or detailed enough.

'can be posed' isn't a bonus if it results in a model that is listless and lifeless no matter how you put it together. For heroes, monopose is better where it allows that pose to be dynamic, energetic, lively, and engaged. Which not all the newer GW heroes are - there's a definite over-reliance on computer design and symmetrical mirroring among these new dwarves that leaves several of their models static and unengaging, but even the worst of them I'd take over that shadow warrior.

You may not like GW's design choices in terms of style/cartoonishness/whatever. I might even agree with you on that front. But your example cheaper alternative is neither modern nor highly detailed. It's lifeless, and even at a third the GW model's cost, I'll still feel it's the more overpriced of the two. I'd suggest trying Wyrd maybe for a better comparison to contrast with GW models, but then you're back to GW level prices.