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So I've been trying to figure out something to play lately, and because I've got an unreasonably artistic temperament (ha!), I insist on playing the most obtuse/hardest to figure out/most unlikely forces possible. (Like working on a pure Inquisition list. Allies? Pft, who needs those! Though I really wish their formation didn't have such terrible rules: IE: Basically none, no way to get Obj Sec, or for that matter any fortifications. Noooothing) Which brings me around to the Fallen. The only rules suggestions the actual dataslates, etc. contain (so far as I can tell, I'll admit to not owning them all and having had to ask other people to peek at theirs/what was in 'em), is the stuff in Cypher's, which seems to suggest that you run the Fallen as CSM without any deamonic gifts/marks/etc. which, uhh... Yeah, I might like weird and odd fluff armies, but I don't hate winning THAT much.

Anyways, at present my conceptualization of the force, if I can find a way to make it work, it that it's a group of the Fallen who decided that, regardless of what any of them might (or might not) have done in the past, aren't just going to stand around while (Xenos/Chaos/w/e) slaughter civilians, and if that puts them in even more danger because they're being hunted? Fine, that's what it is. Some of them may actually be so heroically motivated, as it were, some of them may just be sick of hiding (or sick of not being in combat, dunno how all that Space Marine alteration/conditioning deals with being off the battlefield), and a lot of them are probably just really fatalistic. They're going to be hunted down one way or another, better to face death on the battlefield than getting your door kicked in in the middle of the night or what have you.

Honestly, that's probably too upbeat or something for actual 40k fluff, but it's just what I've been kicking around in my head. The only problem is, as mentioned above, I'm not sure how you'd even run 'em. Like, I suppose, in theory could just go regular SM, use the old color palette, etc., though I'll admit one "advantage" to the CSM version is that it kind of touches on the idea that they don't have access to all the more modern tech, though I'll admit, I don't know about the strength/quality/w/e of things 10k years ago, as so often 40k seems to be about a setting in a constant downward spiral, so maybe old tech is actually better than new tech? I'll admit, that's something I'm not entirely familiar with.

Anyways, there are a lot of ideas/questions/whatever buried in that mess, whatever aid you feel inclined to give or opinions you'd like to express are welcome.

why not use the dark Angels codex? That is the legion they are from. Anything you don't think would make sense for them to use, either don't use, or come up with a fluff reason why they might have it.

Depending on what role you want your marines, you could do A small force of dark angels along side a large guard force. This represents a hand full of fallen with an army of mercenaries.

I'll admit, I was kind of contemplating trying the Dark Angels thing, though if I actually tried to use their Codex (and wanted to be full fluffy), I'd have to avoid a lot of stuff (a lot of the artifacts and their special psyker list, and I want to say even some of their units [Bloody Deathwing!] were designed specifically in the hunt FOR the Fallen so it'd make no sense to include them). Granted I could pseudo ignore a bunch of that and just re contextualize things as other things (So, you know, everything in the force would be a case of 'Rules of X, but actually!'). I just wasn't sure (I did try looking around around here), if there had been some particularly good ideas people'd thrown together, or even some obscure rules resource that'd do, but I'll contemplate how I want to try to pan that out and check back here a few times to see if brains better'n mine have some other suggestions.

I think it's doable. As you want to run completely markless and without daemonic stuff (no dino-bots?).

Here are the things that will fit the theme and still work good enough:

- Cypher's chosen as you've mentioned. They work fine with some special weapons infiltrating or outflanking. But don't get overboard with special weapons - they're expensive. Work best in combination with Huron's infiltration squads.
- Huron. He's unmarked. He's nice by himself and opens up a whole different strategy approach infiltrating troops like marines or raptors.
- Helbrute formations. They work nice. Don't know if you consider helbrutes mutated enough or not.
- Sorcerrors. GET them. Sorcs are strong and unmarked is actually a preferred way of runnign them.
- Marines, raptors and bikes aren't amazing by themselves but they generally don't loose much running un-marked. Raptors could also be used as mobile gun platforms to some extent. Marines work good enough on foot with ccw and melta when infiltrated by Huron and supported by Cypher. I've used this strategy for a while back in 6-th and they won me games. But i've run Slaaneshites with a FNP icon. Regular marines might cut it too. They have Fearless icon and are cheaper.
- Havoks don't need marks when run as long-ranged support.
- Termicide squads. <120 pts and you have 3 deepstriking combi-meltas or plazmas and power weapons on 2+/5++ dudes.

I'd either run an infiltration list as i know it does work or a helbrute list with a murderpack and sorc's support as it also had success with this theme, alltough i ran nurgle spawns to protect sorcs and tarpit stuff. Combi-weapon terminators will provide disruption and will bolster your front when needed. Havoks will be a nice ranged support.

Might want to run VSG or some other fortifications

Further to koooaei above me, I don't see why you couldn't take marks and other upgrades that "seem" wrong, provided you've got a good story to cover. Use the marks not as the blessings of Chaos gods, but as stat line upgrades to further your own story.

For example, you have a unit of Fallen that are assault marines (so, a unit of Raptors). Want to give them Mark of Slaanesh? Why not? The +1 is not because of the blessing of a god, but because they're consummate swordsmen who have been fighting to survive since the heresy - of course they're going to be pretty good in a fight and get the jump on their opponent! Mark of Khorne can be rationalized in a similar fashion - perhaps a unit of zealots who get so inflamed by joining battle that they get rage/counter-attack? Tzeentch and Nurgle are a bit harder to justify, but I'm sure it could be done.

If you want to include Huron, there's no need for him to be "him". He's just a lieutenant under Cypher who leads the vanguard. I'm really all for people who use special characters to represent characters of their own design - as long as it's a WYSIWYG character then all is sweet. Perhaps model him as a robed veteran with a power fist and flamer, with a sheathed power axe hanging from his waist? The Hamadrya could be a "Watcher in the Dark" model.

I really like the Helbrute formations, especially the cultist one. There's nothing to say that Dreadnoughts couldn't be included in The Fallen, and the cultists are just fanatical bottom feeders who are herded along in front of The Fallen as human shields.

I reckon there's a lot of potential for a really interesting army in your ideas. Will it win games against min-maxed armies built by competitive folks who play to win from the moment they start choosing which codex to buy? Perhaps not. I play CSM, and I enjoy most of my games regardless of win/lose/draw, regardless of powerful/average armies. 90% of the fun in a game comes down to the opponent. I've played some really, really dirty armies over the years at tournaments and gaming stores alike, and I've played some really balanced and some really weak armies. The fun games are against fun people! Some of the "weaker" armies I've played against I've slaughtered to a man, and I've not enjoyed myself one iota because the opponent refused to get into the spirit of the game. Likewise, being taken apart by a ruthless army with someone who is laughing and cheering and generally having fun - I don't care if I'm dead by turn four, what a blast!

Go with what feels good.

What Raichase said. I run Alpha Legion with Fallen, and I just imagine the +1 I on my Cultists is from implants rather than MoS. Same with my 5+ FnP and MoS on my CSMs - ain't an icon and MoS, it's an Apothecary and implants!

I'd suggest looking at 30k - you're gonna go FW if you want "correct" MK suits of PA. CSMs, which you must run if you're going Cypher with Chosen, are piss poor. Just take whatever models and paint and convert them correctly and it'll look amazing - e.g. I wouldn't go for the modern Helbrute, I'd go for the classical Chaos (Or SM) Dreadnought.

That's also an option. I play my orks as harlequins and csm, so...

Just gonna drop this off here...http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/673624.page
My idea was that Zahariel and a squad or two of his fellows saw where Luther was going, so they secretly took down the Void Shields around Aldurukh for long enough to let the Lion and fellows into it. When they get scattered, Zahariel ends up with some of his buddies (Eliath and Atthias), and they decide to rebuild the Order (Calibanite knightly order that the Dakr Angels Legion is based upon). When they discover the Unforgiven on their trails, they hide out in the Warp (basically just make a Warp Jump and stay in the Warp for months or years at a time before going back to real space). Because of this, Atthias and Eliath have melded with their armour and weapons, becoming a Mutilator and Obliterator, respectively, and are in command of an Obliterator cult. Extensive time in the Warp has led to rampant mutation among the weak-willed of their mortal followers, and thus many have mutated into Chaos Spawn. Since returning to realspace, the New Order about half a Chapter's worth of Astartes (stolen Gene-seed gifted to them by Cypher for reasons unknown), and have thousands more mortal followers who are equipped with the best gear the Order can get its hands on (some have Carapce Armour and Hot-shot Lasguns, others are running Flak Armour and lasguns). The mortal followers are designated Calibanite Jaegers (named after the Imperial Army Regiment stationed on Caliban during the Fall). Zahariel is the Grand Master, and he has dedicated the New Order to fighting Chaos wherever it may be found (staying true to the oath he made to the Watchers in the Dark). Many times throughout the New Order's history, Cypher has come to their aid before disappearing once more, always recruiting several among their number to join him in his travels.

This backstory allows me to run R&H lists with Cypher's Formation as allies (they make for great GEQ, MEQ, and vehicle hunters, depending upon the needs of my list).I'm currently building a shooty list with Fallen Champions and a CAD of R&H with GEK and Valkyries. I'm also almost done building a pure CSM list with a more assault-oriented strategy.

There is also IA13. Contemtors and the older dreadnought should work fine, you could even feasibly use legacies of ruin from a fluff point imho. And then there's the older relic stuff like sicarans. and friends. The daemon engines would be out but you could probably make good use of a lot still.

Huh, I'll admit, I'm surprised there's as many actually run CSM suggestions here, as I've generally heard (admittedly, I've never run any CSM myself) that CSM is in a really, really bad place right now, so I'm surprised that a, er, fluff limited list from them could be manageable. I mean, obviously, I'm not expecting anything hyper competitive from a fluff list, at base, but I would like it functional enough that, say, if I'm up against a high functioning casual list I'm not instantly stomped into oblivion. Does that sort of ultra infiltrate CSM list really work?

Use the default 30k list and swap to Dark Angels when they drop. That would reflect the ancient and traditional organization of the Fallen before they fled Caliban, and might be something they wish to resurrect to have some reminder of their past as warriors and soldiers rather than prey.

TheDarkGun wrote:
Huh, I'll admit, I'm surprised there's as many actually run CSM suggestions here, as I've generally heard (admittedly, I've never run any CSM myself) that CSM is in a really, really bad place right now, so I'm surprised that a, er, fluff limited list from them could be manageable. I mean, obviously, I'm not expecting anything hyper competitive from a fluff list, at base, but I would like it functional enough that, say, if I'm up against a high functioning casual list I'm not instantly stomped into oblivion. Does that sort of ultra infiltrate CSM list really work?

God no, CSM is currently almost monobuild unless you're playing Orks or 'Nids. Against a highly functioning casual list you'll at a severe disadvantage. Your best bet is to explain your list is sub-par and hope the opponent takes it into consideration. Otherwise, nut up, lose hard, and continue the Long War alongside the rest of the Chaos Space Marines until GW's plan of turning all the CSM players into bitter and twisted mockeries of what we once were ends

Infiltrate isn't as good as it was, and mass Infiltrate doesn't work with Cypher, unless you have Huron, which might land you with only 1 unit plus the Chosen w/Cypher, unless you take even more Chosen squads which are going to get obliterated T1. 3+ saves at 19 points with no Stealth or Shrouded is unwise, especially when Infiltrating them nicely into Rapid Fire range, which effectively limits it to a single squad of Chosen. I usually choose to make it a Death Star - Cypher is 190 points so I take a big unit of Chosen to leverage that point cost, give them some nice melta, flamers, and power weapons. To make them almost unstoppable, I take 2 Sorcerers at Lvl3, roll all my dice on Telepathy, and hope for Invisibility. Deploy your Sorcerer with Invisibility with a unit to give him ablative wounds (re: Cultists) close to where Cypher will Infiltrate with his Chosen (into ruins unless you go first). Turn one you cast Invisibility on them, run them towards the enemy (but end your turn in ruins if you can). Then give them the option of either wasting firepower trying to Snap Shot your 2+ cover save Chosen to death, or let them charge you. If he charges you, you Hit & Run, then charge something else T2 that won't break preferably - you don't want to get caught in the open. Rinse repeat.

Now the main issue is this costs a bucket load of points and most other armies can get this for less. However, that doesn't mean it's not effective.

If you want to go mass Infiltrate, you're talking MoN Bikers, MoN Spawn, and MoN Obliterators. Get some of the FW Outriders or Jetbikes and paint them up black as the MoN bikers or some FW Terminators as Counts-As Obliterators. Hell, you could even put any extra weapons and ammo you have lying around on a separate base to demonstrate they have loads of weapons, then a little servitor to carry it, making it even clearer what they are.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Use the default 30k list and swap to Dark Angels when they drop. That would reflect the ancient and traditional organization of the Fallen before they fled Caliban, and might be something they wish to resurrect to have some reminder of their past as warriors and soldiers rather than prey.

Huh, this one sounds pretty good. Saves me the agony of becoming a CSM player, eternally crushed underfoot =P And in theory let's me easily switch around what rules I'm using if I want to experiment since I could use them as SMs, or the actual DA codex or w/e. I mean, I don't actually own any SMs (... Well I think I have some GK bits lying around, don't think that really counts), so I suppose getting some actual Imperium models couldn't really hurt me.

Just in case you get the "there are not enough fallen for a 40k army"

The most recent fluff puts the fallen at the thousands mark, if not tens of thousands, caliban under Luther kept recruiting and it got to a point where he stopped sending them to the lion.

Honestly, not even that difficult of an argument to navigate in this case:

"Well there's not enough of them for a full army."

"Eh, quite possibly not, but there's enough of them to fill the squads on this table"

Heh. Though I suppose the "not enough for an army" is a promise they'll never be seeing a full splatbook... Despite Cypher. That whole thing is really weird to me.

"Not enough for an army".

"Oh, guess you'd better find another opponent then!"

Fits the rule of cool in my book, I'd love to play against them.