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Necron Canoptek Scarabs are very short, very squishy figures. Do low-lying Swarms like Scarabs provide 5+ Cover from Ranged Fire for units stationed behind them?

Previously. I have had answered that Aegis Line segments DO NOT provide cover for Canoptek Wraiths because the model (whether classed as either Jump Infantry or as Beasts) is just so much taller than the Aegis that 25% of the Figure's mass/profile is not obscured. Does the same rationale hold for Swarms?

Thanks,

TomWilton wrote:
Necron Canoptek Scarabs are very short, very squishy figures. Do low-lying Swarms like Scarabs provide 5+ Cover from Ranged Fire for units stationed behind them?

Previously. I have had answered that Aegis Line segments DO NOT provide cover for Canoptek Wraiths because the model (whether classed as either Jump Infantry or as Beasts) is just so much taller than the Aegis that 25% of the Figure's mass/profile is not obscured. Does the same rationale hold for Swarms?

Thanks,

This is not a question with a definitive answer for every situation. It all comes down to True Line of Sight.

I'll have to go back and check, but I thought intervening units provided Cover without requiring the 25% coverage?

The rule only requires that they be 'partially obscured' by models from a third unit. It is possible to be 'behind' this third unit and still not be partially obscured (changes in elevation, etc.). You would need to use true line of sight.

It has nothing to do with true los or terrain. If a unit is between you and your target your target gets cover due to intervening models. If the 2" spacing between 2 ripper swarms lets you see a warrior in his entirety then the warrior STILL gets cover.

You have to picture the chain of units staying in cohesion as the deciding factor. If a model is behind the chain/models AT ALL then intervening models comes into play.

25% is from terrain.

Elevation can get tricky because the rules don't actually address it properly. But on open ground the swarms absolutely provide cover.

If the line of sight passes over top of the scarabs, then its firing over the unit and not through the gaps between the models in the unit.

Lance845 wrote:
It has nothing to do with true los or terrain. If a unit is between you and your target your target gets cover due to intervening models. If the 2" spacing between 2 ripper swarms lets you see a warrior in his entirety then the warrior STILL gets cover.

You have to picture the chain of units staying in cohesion as the deciding factor. If a model is behind the chain/models AT ALL then intervening models comes into play.

25% is from terrain.

Elevation can get tricky because the rules don't actually address it properly. But on open ground the swarms absolutely provide cover.

If a target is partially obscured from the firer by models from a third unit (models not from the firer’s unit, or from the target unit), it receives a 5+ cover save in the same way as if it was behind terrain. Similarly, if a model fires through the
gaps between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer. Note that this does not apply if the shots go over the unit, either because the firer has an elevated position or is firing a Barrage weapon, rather than through it.

You forgot to account for LOS. The warrior would have to be close to the Ripper for LOS to not go "over" the swarm and see the Warrior.

Charistoph wrote:
I'll have to go back and check, but I thought intervening units provided Cover without requiring the 25% coverage?

This is absolutely true. However, you can draw line of sight from anywhere on the firing model. So if you are able to make it so that you are zero percent obscured from the viewpoint of the firer (change in elevation, for example) then you can get around it. But yes, even a wraithknight would be obscured by scarabs, so long as it is sufficiently close to the scarabs such that you cannot draw complete line of sight to the entire wraithknight model without drawing a line through an opposing model. There is a decent amount of trigonometry involved here, but basically the height that you need to be at to avoid granting a cover save increases the farther you are away, and also increases as the wraithknight gets closer to the scarab.

It feels a little gamey, though, so I wouldn't claim a cover save from that unless I was playing in a tournament game or something. Or if I was playing as Tyranids As it stands, the wraithknight can already "toe in" for 4+ cover if you have ruins or rubble on the battlefield. No need to give any more nonsensical cover saves. FWIW I do own an Eldar army.

The line about firing over or barrage is iffy at best specifically because the game does not define elevation clearly. You can argue that 1 floor above is over. Clearly they assume barrage weapons are like mortar shells that drop down onto units. Which is fluffy but again not really defined anywhere in the rules.

Likewise there are plenty of examples of weapons that fluffwise would come at the target like a mortar but are not barrage and so do allow for cover saves.

They really need to address elevation with inches. 3 inches above is the next elevation level. Units above you have cover because of the terrain. Units below cannot claim intervening models.

Models taller than 3 inches occupy their lowest level for gaining cover from elevation but occupy all elevation levels they are in for shooting down or strait into units.

I.e. a hive tyrant can fire over intervening models but gains no cover from elevation. A knight could fire strait into the 3rd elevation level (if I have my scale of a knight correct)

 luke1705 wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
I'll have to go back and check, but I thought intervening units provided Cover without requiring the 25% coverage?

This is absolutely true. However, you can draw line of sight from anywhere on the firing model. So if you are able to make it so that you are zero percent obscured from the viewpoint of the firer (change in elevation, for example) then you can get around it. But yes, even a wraithknight would be obscured by scarabs, so long as it is sufficiently close to the scarabs such that you cannot draw complete line of sight to the entire wraithknight model without drawing a line through an opposing model. There is a decent amount of trigonometry involved here, but basically the height that you need to be at to avoid granting a cover save increases the farther you are away, and also increases as the wraithknight gets closer to the scarab.

It feels a little gamey, though, so I wouldn't claim a cover save from that unless I was playing in a tournament game or something. Or if I was playing as Tyranids As it stands, the wraithknight can already "toe in" for 4+ cover if you have ruins or rubble on the battlefield. No need to give any more nonsensical cover saves. FWIW I do own an Eldar army.

Would this then invalidate the Wraith issue and state that they WOULD get a Cover Save from the Aegis Line since the tiniest fraction of the models' tail is obscured?

TomWilton wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
I'll have to go back and check, but I thought intervening units provided Cover without requiring the 25% coverage?

This is absolutely true. However, you can draw line of sight from anywhere on the firing model. So if you are able to make it so that you are zero percent obscured from the viewpoint of the firer (change in elevation, for example) then you can get around it. But yes, even a wraithknight would be obscured by scarabs, so long as it is sufficiently close to the scarabs such that you cannot draw complete line of sight to the entire wraithknight model without drawing a line through an opposing model. There is a decent amount of trigonometry involved here, but basically the height that you need to be at to avoid granting a cover save increases the farther you are away, and also increases as the wraithknight gets closer to the scarab.

It feels a little gamey, though, so I wouldn't claim a cover save from that unless I was playing in a tournament game or something. Or if I was playing as Tyranids As it stands, the wraithknight can already "toe in" for 4+ cover if you have ruins or rubble on the battlefield. No need to give any more nonsensical cover saves. FWIW I do own an Eldar army.

Would this then invalidate the Wraith issue and state that they WOULD get a Cover Save from the Aegis Line since the tiniest fraction of the models' tail is obscured?

Only if the tiniest fraction of the models' tail amounts to 25% or more of the model.

Similar to this dilemma is when someone tried to pull the "your flier base is between our two units, so I get cover" bs. Unless the scarabs are modeled such that they're not right along the ground, there shouldn't really be cover in either case. Of course, using squishy scarabs as a screen isn't what I'd recommend anyways.

Lance845 wrote:
They really need to address elevation with inches.

They really don't, because elevation in this instance is resolved simply by looking at the model.

You draw LOS from the shooter to the target. You can use any part of the shooter's body as the reference point... it's not just a line drawn along the table top.

If that LOS goes over the intervening unit rather than through them, then the LOS is over them, and not through them.


No need for any arbitrary definitions here.

Authors: "so we have this true line of sight thing where you look from the model's perspective."
Players: "ok cool."
Authors: "so, when you are making a shooting attack; you determine cover by line of sight."
Players: "ok."
Authors: "If line of sight goes throught the gaps of a unit that is between the shooting unit and the target unit, then the target unit receives a cover save."
Players: "oh, because the models are an abstraction for living beings that are not really just standing in those positions."
Authors: "exactly. But if the line of sight goes over the intervening models for whatever reason, then the target unit receives no save."
Players: "BUT HOW DO WE DETERMINE LINE OF SIGHT WITH ELEVATION!!?"
Authors: "I am not even going to address that because we already told you what true line of sight is."
Some Players(crying): "GW doesn't know how to write rules, wah!"

-thank you; this has been a play by the angry Kommissar.

This is getting way out of hand.

Vehicles must have 25% or more of their silhouette blocked by terrain instead of simply being in area terrain. This also seems to apply to Monsterous Creatures.

The Necron Canoptek Wraith was Jump Infantry in 6th Edition and now is Beasts in 7th Edition. Neither is Vehicle nor Monsterous.. But 25% of the figure needs cover?

*confused aura*

TomWilton wrote:
This is getting way out of hand.

Vehicles must have 25% or more of their silhouette blocked by terrain instead of simply being in area terrain. This also seems to apply to Monsterous Creatures.

The Necron Canoptek Wraith was Jump Infantry in 6th Edition and now is Beasts in 7th Edition. Neither is Vehicle nor Monsterous.. But 25% of the figure needs cover?

*confused aura*

You may wish to read the rules for an intervening third unit.

TomWilton wrote:
Vehicles must have 25% or more of their silhouette blocked by terrain instead of simply being in area terrain. This also seems to apply to Monsterous Creatures.

This applies to Monstrous Creatures as much as it applies to Infantry, Beast, Cavalry, and Artillery. All use the basic rules for Cover (unless individually noted).

 Ghaz wrote:

TomWilton wrote:
This is getting way out of hand.

Vehicles must have 25% or more of their silhouette blocked by terrain instead of simply being in area terrain. This also seems to apply to Monsterous Creatures.

The Necron Canoptek Wraith was Jump Infantry in 6th Edition and now is Beasts in 7th Edition. Neither is Vehicle nor Monsterous.. But 25% of the figure needs cover?

*confused aura*

You may wish to read the rules for an intervening third unit.

No, he may wish to re-read "determining cover" again as he seems to think a wraith's hand behind a bush will grant a 5+.

Intervening units just remove the 25% for all but vehicles. So a unit between the firing unit and the wraiths where 1 model in that unit blocks LOS to the wraith's hand does grant the save(and you do not even need that if the wraith is in the open between 2 models in the intervening unit).

Maybe this is a case where they could have used some of those pretty pictures.

Thank you for using the "Dispel Confusion" psychic discipline