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A topic that has been discussed many times before.

Your friend is playing it correctly; with NSF drop pods have all a chance to enter on turn 1.

   
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nosferatu1001 wrote:
...or any other detachment.

EnTyme I think yo uare stuck in 6th; "Allies" do not have to use the Allied Detachment.


I actually never played 6th. Just misinterpreted the rules, I guess. Why would you ever use an Allied Detachment, then?

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 EnTyme wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
...or any other detachment.

EnTyme I think yo uare stuck in 6th; "Allies" do not have to use the Allied Detachment.


I actually never played 6th. Just misinterpreted the rules, I guess. Why would you ever use an Allied Detachment, then?
you wanted an HQ more than a Troops choice, Allied is better.

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Not to get off topic;

Allied Detachment Troops are also Objective Secured, and have smaller requirements. If you're taking an additional detachment to have access to something specific and don't want to pay much "tax" on it, Allied Detachments are the way to go.

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col_impact wrote:
The Drop Pod does have access to the Reserve Roll on turn 1. The Grey Knight provides the Drop Pod with the Reserve Roll per the Combined Unit rule. The GK unit makes the Reserve Roll on its behalf. The Drop Pod is part of the Combined Unit.

Nothing quoted so far specifically allows the Embarked Grey Knights unit to give their Reserves Roll bonus to their Transport, Drop Pod or not. This is an assumption based on the fact that they roll together. No permission is given to share rules across the combined unit, and the Grey Knights' rule is only for that unit.

col_impact wrote:
The Drop Pod does not need any Advanced Rule to be able to arrive turn 1. The Reserve Roll is all that is needed.

The ability to make a Reserves Roll on Turn 1 IS an Advanced Rule. The Basic rule does not give permission to make such a Roll before Turn 2.

col_impact wrote:
Reserve Rolls are defined as . .

Spoiler:
roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls.
If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again next turn.

The roll itself is not in issue, it is the timing permission that needs to be addressed. And the basic rule is:
Spoiler:
Arriving from Reserve
At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls...

So, to repeat myself, Turn 1 Reserve Rolls are an Advanced Rule. It adds permission to start rolling for Reserves earlier than normal, just like moving in the Assault Phase without Charging, Piling In, or Falling Back is an Advanced Rule.

col_impact wrote:
Normally the Reserve Rolls are handed out "at the start of your second turn". The GK unit, however, is able to provide one for the Combine Unit on turn one. If the Reserve Roll is successful, the Combined Unit arrives from Deep Strike Reserve on turn one, facing no restrictions.

Nothing quoted supports this assertion. Neither "combined unit" or "transport" is ever mentioned in the detachment rule. You are assuming that one part of the combined unit can roll for all of it, but the rules state they are rolled for together.

col_impact wrote:
There is no rule that prevents the Reserve Roll from applying to the Drop Pod. There is no rule which states that units cannot arrive from Reserves on turn one. There is only a rule which hands out Reserve Rolls starting on turn 2. The Reserve Rolls themselves are what provide the permission to arrive from Reserves. If the Drop Pod can get a Reserve Roll it can arrive from reserves on whichever turn it happens to be. The GK unit provides the Drop Pod the Reserve Roll on turn one as part of the Combined Unit, per the Combined Unit rules.

Sure there is, lack of permission. I've said it a dozen times by now and you have not addressed it with any proper quote. And Embarked unit does not have basic permission to independently roll for their Transport, but they roll together.

col_impact wrote:
Charistophe, you need to quit fuddling around and provide an actual restriction that would prevent a Drop Pod from arriving on turn one that is legally provided a Reserve Roll on turn one. If you cannot, my argument wins. In fact, it's becoming more and more obvious in this thread that you have already lost.

Well, maybe if you actually understood my case, you would actually address it instead of fuddling around with pointless details that I never presented. I never said Drop Pods are denied the ability to do a Turn 1 Reserve Roll, I said that they do not have permission to make one. There is a difference.

Basic Rules:
Reserve Rolls start being applied on Turn 2. No permission to roll on Turn 1.
Transports do not receive the rules or benefits of the rules of the Embarked Units, but the Transport's rules may affect them while Embarked.

Advanced Rules:
Half an army's Drop Pods (rounded up) may automatically come in on Turn 1. The rest roll for Reserves as normal. Normal would be the Basic rule of rolling for Reserves on Turn 2.
Infiltrate provides the ability for a unit to Infiltrate with their Dedicated Transport.
Units in the Grey Knight detachment in question may roll for Reserves Turn 1. No permission is granted to share this with any Transport, dedicated or not.

The OP asked for a way to prevent this, this is the way to prevent it. Separate out the permissions and apply them as they come. While part of a combined unit is granted permission to roll on Turn 1, it only applies to itself, and not any Transport carrying it. No permission is provided for on portion of the "combined unit" to roll for all of it. If it was the Transport had the rule and was carrying the Grey Knights, it would be a different story, since they carry the Grey Knights, not the other way around.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/21 16:57:19


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Alright. That does make sense. Sorry to temporarily derail the thread here. Back to the topic at hand, and to reiterate my previous statement, what your opponent does seem to be legal based on RAW, but I do strongly feel that it violates the intent of the Rites of Teleportation rules, and in any case, it certainly violates the concept of fair play. If you are exploiting a gap in the rules at the expense of the other player, you have no right to complain if/when you have no one left to play against. Don't be TFG.

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Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the
Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly,
you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which
case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit,
roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.


Not sure what everyone is arguing about - it says you can roll for the unit OR IC OR the transport.

So if he rolls for the GK unit he is allowed to do so turn 1.
   
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Okay Charistoph... I'm going to walk you through this nice and slow:

Step 1: Choose army list.
The player selects a Nemesis Strike Force for Grey Knights and a Space Marine CAD for Marines, buying lots of Drop Pods, including some as just empty Drop Pods that are NOT dedicated transports. Some of the Grey Knights purchased for the Nemesis Strike Force do not normally have the ability to start the game in Deep Strike Reserves, but could start in a transport.

Step 2: After determining mission and whatnot and starting the game, choose which forces will be held in Reserves, declaring which of those forces will be in Deep Strike Reserves, and declaring which units are Combined Units.
This is simple too. The Drop Pod, through its special rule, MUST start the game in Deep Strike Reserves. It's at this time that the rules ask you to create combined units. The player declares that a Grey Knight squad will be embarked upon one of the empty Drop Pods, which means that the two are a Combined Unit. Two units still exist in Reserves (the Drop Pod, and the Grey Knights), but they are a Combined Unit. The rule quoted right at the beginning of this thread shows how when one of them succeeds at a reserve roll, both will enter. This is required, as without this rule, all transports and independent characters would have to pass Reserve Rolls separately.

Step 3: After start of game, on the player's first turn, they perform the Drop Pod Assault
The player counts up all their Drop Pods, and chooses half to arrive immediately, without having to make a Reserve Roll. If the player wishes, they can simply choose some of their Drop Pods containing Grey Knights to come in around this time, but for sake of argument let's say he doesn't choose any. The remaining Drop Pods will be arriving "normally", which means they will follow the rules for making Reserve Rolls and entering via Deep Strike.

Step 4: Combined Units for Drop Pod Assault
Here's a minor issue in the way you're arguing this. You're saying that you have to roll as a Combined Unit, and that Special Rules don't transfer over. You're right about the Special Rules, but wrong about having to roll for Combined Units. You CAN have just one part of a Combined Unit make the transition from being a unit in Reserves to being a unit that will be entering the battlefield by either Outflank, Deep Strike, or Regular Reserves. In fact, it's a necessity for Drop Pod Assault to work at all. You see, the units INSIDE the Drop Pod don't have the Drop Pod Assault special rule! By "if any piece can't enter, none can enter" line of thinking, only an empty Drop Pod can arrive on Turn 1 using Drop Pod Assault. However, due to Combined Units, since the Drop Pod has "succeeded", both it AND the unit it's combined with are said to succeed. The unit inside never gain Drop Pod Assault special rule (and, like you said, you'll never find a rule that says this happens), but comes along for the ride anyways. By thinking "you only make a roll for the Drop Pod", then you're violating the "and/or" part of the rules. The "and/or" has been argued to death now, and if you don't accept how the language works here, I cannot help you.

Step 5: Turn 1 Reserve Rolls occur
Okay, nothing prevents a unit from arrive from Reserves on Turn 1. It's just that normally, you can't make Reserve Rolls on Turn 1. If this was impossible, neither the Drop Pods from Drop Pod Assault or the Grey Knights from Rites of Teleportation could ever arrive on Turn 1. The Grey Knight units get to make Reserve Rolls at this point due to their special rule, and the Drop Pods by their special rule. Normally fine, since most models taking advantage of this are units without transports that are in Deep Strike Reserves, or are Transports arriving without needing to roll. The rules only state that, under normal circumstances, you only make Reserve Rolls starting on Turn 2 or later.

Step 6: Combined Units for Rites of Teleportation
The player can choose to make a reserve roll for the Grey Knights OR the Drop Pod OR for the total sum of the Combined Unit. Again, the Drop Pod and the Combined Unit as a whole are ineligible for making these Reserve Rolls, since it's the first turn and neither has special rules allowing them to make a Reserve Roll on Turn 1. Since there's the "and/or", you can still choose the Grey Knights, and the Grey Knights are able to make the Reserve Roll due to their special rule. If they do this, the player is NOT making a Reserve Roll for the Drop Pod. The player is NOT making a Reserve Roll for the total sum of the Combined Unit. They are just making the Reserve Roll for the Grey Knights. If succeeded, both the Grey Knights AND the Drop Pod will successfully make the transition from Reserves to entering the battlefield, without having shared any special rule! Just like with Drop Pod Assault, neither has gained the other's special rule. It's like they're tied by a piece of string, and if one goes from Reserves to entering the battlefield, both do. The Drop Pod didn't have to pass a Reserve Roll, because the unit it was attached to was able to pass the Reserve Roll.


THE BEST ARGUMENT FOR WHY THIS WORKS:

This is the way it must work for even Drop Pod Assault to work. Without it, only empty Drop Pods could enter on Turn 1, since they do not transfer their special rule to the units inside. You also have the choice of which unit makes the roll, since only the Drop Pod has the Drop Pod Assault special rule and both the Combined Unit and the Space Marines inside do NOT have this special rule, AND the rules do not say just to roll for the Transport. It has to be because you can choose which parts of the unit make the Reserve Roll, and because if any one part makes the Reserve Roll that both count as passing, which allows you to pick the Grey Knights inside the Drop Pod, since those Grey Knights have a special rule that allows them to make a Reserve Roll on Turn 1. This action, while totally non-fluffy, ridiculous, and probably not RAI, is 100% legal by the RAW.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/21 17:45:39


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step 6 is not actually stated anywhere.

The and/or tells you the unit combinations that are in the combined roll. It does not state you get to pick one and roll for it using only its rules then everything arrives. That is a jump in logic with no actual rules support some people in this thread keep claiming. The part you keep misquoting tells you to roll a die for all of the things to come in together listing the possible combinations of things.

It does not say you get to roll the die for one of the things, and have all the rest arrive.

It would be nice if you people, who keep making up rules that are not present would actually quote the reserve roll where it says (see below)

the action you detailed is not legal by the RAW, you are using RAI to say you can roll for any unit, then you are making up rules that are just not written saying you can use that roll to have all the rest arrive regardless of legality.

Then you are ignoring the actual rules for the reserves roll under (see below) where you are rolling for a model from the unit you are placing that then scatters as per the rules continue to address...

obviously you are not placing a GK unit and scattering it, so why are you claiming you are rolling for it.

   
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 chaosmarauder wrote:

Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the
Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly,
you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which
case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit,
roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

Not sure what everyone is arguing about - it says you can roll for the unit OR IC OR the transport.

So if he rolls for the GK unit he is allowed to do so turn 1.

This would be the case if you could separate them out, but since we doing them together, it would be rolling a single die for the unit AND the Transport. We are not allowed to separate them, indeed we are forbidden from doing so. It still does not address a situation where one part of the combined unit has access early.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/21 18:21:22


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blaktoof wrote:step 6 is not actually stated anywhere.

The and/or tells you the unit combinations that are in the combined roll. It does not state you get to pick one and roll for it using only its rules then everything arrives. That is a jump in logic with no actual rules support some people in this thread keep claiming. The part you keep misquoting tells you to roll a die for all of the things to come in together listing the possible combinations of things.

It does not say you get to roll the die for one of the things, and have all the rest arrive.

It would be nice if you people, who keep making up rules that are not present would actually quote the reserve roll where it says (see below)

the action you detailed is not legal by the RAW, you are using RAI to say you can roll for any unit, then you are making up rules that are just not written saying you can use that roll to have all the rest arrive regardless of legality.

Then you are ignoring the actual rules for the reserves roll under (see below) where you are rolling for a model from the unit you are placing that then scatters as per the rules continue to address...

obviously you are not placing a GK unit and scattering it, so why are you claiming you are rolling for it.



By that argument, if you cannot pick which unit you roll for, then Drop Pod Assault special rule doesn't work, since the combined unit together doesn't have the special rule - only the Transport does. This is fine so long as you can detail that the Transport is the ONLY unit you may select as part of the combined unit. You cannot select both, since the unit inside the Drop Pod doesn't have the special rule. Being able to choose which of the two you want for the "and/or" is the only way to allow Drop Pods to come down on turn 1 with even regular Space Marines inside them. Otherwise they'd be empty.

Charistoph wrote:
 chaosmarauder wrote:

Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the
Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly,
you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which
case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit,
roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

Not sure what everyone is arguing about - it says you can roll for the unit OR IC OR the transport.

So if he rolls for the GK unit he is allowed to do so turn 1.

This would be the case if you could separate them out, but since we doing them together, it would be rolling a single die for the unit AND the Transport. We are not allowed to separate them, indeed we are forbidden from doing so. It still does not address a situation where one part of the combined unit has access early.


Again, you have to be able to separate them. If you can't, then Drop Pods on Turn 1 in a pure Space Marine army can't arrive with anything in them. You must be able to separate them. The unit AND the Transport does not have the Drop Pod Assault special rule. Only the Drop Pod by itself does. This would be fine if the rules let you pick and choose, or if they specified that you must select the Transport. However, they do not.



EDIT: In other words, your argument is nonsensical, as doing it in the way you are describing means other things, where the intent is even more clear, no longer function. Can Drop Pods bring in Space Marines turn 1? Yes? Then the exact same basic game rules that allow this to happen allow Grey Knights inside a Drop Pod to roll for Reserves on Turn 1.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/21 19:20:22


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 Yarium wrote:
Charistoph wrote:
 chaosmarauder wrote:

Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the
Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly,
you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which
case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit,
roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

Not sure what everyone is arguing about - it says you can roll for the unit OR IC OR the transport.

So if he rolls for the GK unit he is allowed to do so turn 1.

This would be the case if you could separate them out, but since we doing them together, it would be rolling a single die for the unit AND the Transport. We are not allowed to separate them, indeed we are forbidden from doing so. It still does not address a situation where one part of the combined unit has access early.

Again, you have to be able to separate them. If you can't, then Drop Pods on Turn 1 in a pure Space Marine army can't arrive with anything in them. You must be able to separate them. The unit AND the Transport does not have the Drop Pod Assault special rule. Only the Drop Pod by itself does. This would be fine if the rules let you pick and choose, or if they specified that you must select the Transport. However, they do not.

That's because you ignore the fact that the Transport carries the Embarked, which allows its movement-type rules to be in affect. The Vehicle is actually doing the coming in from Reserves, not the unit alone or the unit carrying the Transport.

It does not state that the unit/IC/Transport rolls FOR the combined unit, just one die is needed for the combined unit.

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Not sure if teleportation rights are given to GK HQs - but if they are then you only have to put a GK HQ into a pod with another factions unit and pod and because you can choose to roll for just the GK HQ turn 1 - he would bring the unit and the pod with him.
   
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Charistoph wrote:
That's because you ignore the fact that the Transport carries the Embarked, which allows its movement-type rules to be in affect. The Vehicle is actually doing the coming in from Reserves, not the unit alone or the unit carrying the Transport.

It does not state that the unit/IC/Transport rolls FOR the combined unit, just one die is needed for the combined unit.


Movement rules are not in effect for units in reserves. Your argument is invalid.

The Reserve Roll is made for the Combined Unit while the units making up the Combined Unit are in Reserves (and are not subject to any movement rules).

Per the Combined Unit rule, the GK unit provides the one die needed for the Combined Unit.

The movement rules only come into effect when the Combined Unit moves from Reserves onto the battlefield which is after the permission has been granted by the Reserve Roll to arrive from Reserves.
   
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 chaosmarauder wrote:
Not sure if teleportation rights are given to GK HQs - but if they are then you only have to put a GK HQ into a pod with another factions unit and pod and because you can choose to roll for just the GK HQ turn 1 - he would bring the unit and the pod with him.

Rites of Teleportation applies to any Nemesis Strike Force unit placed in reserve to Deep Strike. While most GK units have Deep Strike, some do not, such as the Purifier Squad. The only way to place a Purifier into reserves to Deep Strike is by embarking them on a transport able to Deep Strike. Fast selection Drop Pods are such a transport, hence the reason why this subject is discussed about once every 3-4 months.

Legally, a NSF unit in a Fast selection Drop Pod can roll to enter from reserve via Deep Strike due to how rules for Rites, Battle-Brothers, and Combined Reserved Units interact. Fun fact: Drop Pods don't have the Deep Strike USR, either. They Deep Strike solely based on their Deep Strike Assault rule, allows the second half of your Drop Pods to roll to enter normally. Due to Rites, the "normal" roll to enter is shifted from 2nd turn to 1st turn. Some people don't like this, so argue against it. RAW supports it, though.

SJ

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 jeffersonian000 wrote:
 chaosmarauder wrote:
Not sure if teleportation rights are given to GK HQs - but if they are then you only have to put a GK HQ into a pod with another factions unit and pod and because you can choose to roll for just the GK HQ turn 1 - he would bring the unit and the pod with him.

Rites of Teleportation applies to any Nemesis Strike Force unit placed in reserve to Deep Strike. While most GK units have Deep Strike, some do not, such as the Purifier Squad. The only way to place a Purifier into reserves to Deep Strike is by embarking them on a transport able to Deep Strike. Fast selection Drop Pods are such a transport, hence the reason why this subject is discussed about once every 3-4 months.

Legally, a NSF unit in a Fast selection Drop Pod can roll to enter from reserve via Deep Strike due to how rules for Rites, Battle-Brothers, and Combined Reserved Units interact. Fun fact: Drop Pods don't have the Deep Strike USR, either. They Deep Strike solely based on their Deep Strike Assault rule, allows the second half of your Drop Pods to roll to enter normally. Due to Rites, the "normal" roll to enter is shifted from 2nd turn to 1st turn. Some people don't like this, so argue against it. RAW supports it, though.

SJ


I like how we just type things and say RAW supports things.

   
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On that note, I think we've gone about as far as we're likely to here.

 
   
 
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