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I already showed that Warp Talons can't beat Raptors at MEQ except outside of cover though. So saying they still have that use is STILL ignoring that point.

Regarding T6 3+, Raptors have Krak Grenades and can take a Melta Bomb. On the charge, Warp Talons inflict 2.3 wounds. Using Krak Grenades and a Melta Bomb, the Raptors inflict 1 wound. Shooting with 2 Melta Guns, 4 Bolt Pistols, and throwing a single Krak brings it to the same number. Once again that's assuming outside of cover, though it is pretty easy to give Monstrous Creatures cover (so the shooting wounds goes down by about 33% and the Warp Talons strike last).
Against 2+, the math is pretty ludicrous, with the Warp Talons only doing .4 and Raptors doing .65. I didn't do regular MoK Raptors on the charge because I didn't feel like doing the numbers on that.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
On the charge, Warp Talons inflict 2.3 wounds.

Are you sure that's right?

2A base + 1A from paired weapons + 1A from charge bonus x 5 models = 20A

20(2/3)(3/10) = 3W

warp talons have 1A base.

Thanks for pointing that out for me.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
On the charge, Warp Talons inflict 2.3 wounds.

Are you sure that's right?

2A base + 1A from paired weapons + 1A from charge bonus x 5 models = 20A

20(2/3)(3/10) = 3W

Does this take into account rerolls to wound from Shred?

Yes I already did that.

I just got into the game not to long ago, probably 8 games or so under my belt, but I think the WT are overcosted and garbage for the points cost. Now, I love these models, bought 2 boxes of them, but stopped using them after 3 games. 1st game they ds in with scatter and got blown away to 2 guys before they could even charge. 2nd game they ds on target and manage to blind a necron immortal squad. But end up losing 2 to other units and overwatch before charging. Game 3 they killed a squad worth about 130 points then prompty died after assault ended. I love these guys, I want to use them, but just cant justify the points. My main opponent is necrons, and when he gets wraiths with a 3 up invuln save and better stats for less points, it seems useless to pay for the warp talons.

My GF just recently got into the game and we played a few learning games for her. Can someone explain to me how swooping hawks have 1 more model, haywire and plasma grenades, and 18 inch jump move if they want, a DS with NO SCATTER, and a grenade pack attack when they do ds that ignores over and line of sight? and have a mini vector strike attack while moving for flying units, and assault 3 weapons. All of this for half the points of WT..... Yes I understand we have a better save and better melee weapons, but I would trade all of that in a heartbeat for a squad like the hawks.

Like I said i'm fairly new, but this seems unbalanced as hell, or maybe I am just missing something with the talons, and if I am, please enlighten me because they are my favorite models that took me weeks to paint and I would love to use them without being handicapped lol.

Well at least Swooping Hawks fill a niche. In fact, the Aspect Warriors all feel decent besides the bikes, and even then there's always the ability to get +1BS/WS so it helps.


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Also the Eldar codex is unbalanced as hell, so it isn't just you


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On Battlescribe while editing a list I noticed that the Warp Talon Champion on has one base attack. If that's actually true, my math is slightly inaccurate and paints them in a better light than they should've been.

Nah, he has two alright.


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But since you mentioned something peculiar. I find it interesting how NOBODY mentions how the champ can take two gifts lol. I have defended them in the past (and still do) , and not even I took that into account.

P.S.
Not saying their good or even average...never did. Just to avoid any misunderstandings.

How would he be able to take two gifts? Meh.

It's actually an option for the WT champ lol. He may take up to two gifts for 10 points each. Which puts him square at 50 points before even considering a mark....or veterans of the long war if you like to be extra saucy. Most of the gifts are actually useful for him.

But it goes to show how bad a unit they are overall, when they are considered bad before even considering all of their options. Which actually make them even worse in this case. Even if you you somehow got a 2+ rerollable save on the champ...they'd STILL be bad. 50 points for a squishy 1 W model for a CHANCE at a decent roll is meh at the best of times.
I suppose you could make this guy your warlord if your feeling extra lucky to possibly get rerolls on those gifts but yea. Now we're getting into crazy town.

 Jancoran wrote:


Heldrakes have their problems too. Like being one shot out of the sky with one 35 point Fortification upgrade or similar types of bad luck.

I have to tackle this statement because it disturbs me to my very core.
Just saying it can be one-shot and is therefore a downside is grasping at straws. Bad luck can hit Warp Talons and they fail the charge distance or lose the combat and get swept. This is why we use Mathhammer to see what will most likely happen.

Take for example the Scatterbike. 135 points of them will kill 3.7 Warp Talons from a VERY long distance. On Overwatch they'll kill .9 and they'll hit in combat first, which kills .28. This equates 4.88, or in your case, seeing you just HATE decimals in past threads, 5 Warp Talons. When this same squad tries to hit even a Blight Drone on the side armor, they'll likely take off .74 HP. Remember how you said people might just Jink and therefore it plays into your hands? Looking at basic math will stop that.

So now we can look at what I imagine you're talking about (maybe the Quad Gun). Hitting the side armor of a Blight Drone will most likely inflict 1.19 HP. This is the side armor. Looking at how the Blight Drone is likely to be positioned, it'll do .8 instead. Heldrakes will really only be hit by the side and front when we look at how Fortifications are going to be deployed, so the RA10 is hardly ever going to come into play.
Now, there's also the Icarus Lascannon, and the math is even worse. It'll only do about .4 HP stripped with only a 10% to knock it out of the sky. Who is going to try and Jink that?

Saying that the downside is that they can be one-shot is SUPER ridiculous and you honestly should be ashamed you tried even bringing it up.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:


Heldrakes have their problems too. Like being one shot out of the sky with one 35 point Fortification upgrade or similar types of bad luck.

I have to tackle this statement because it disturbs me to my very core.
Just saying it can be one-shot and is therefore a downside is grasping at straws. .

Or stating a fact. One or the other. One cannot ignore the one-shot factor. Its real. Want a more "realistic" example? StormSurge missile. Just one. I mean whatevs. The point is, all armored being are frought with this peril except Super heavy Walkers.


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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

So now we can look at what I imagine you're talking about (maybe the Quad Gun). .

Nope. The Lascannon, generally mann'd by a BS 5 model if you can pull it off.

 Jancoran wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:


Heldrakes have their problems too. Like being one shot out of the sky with one 35 point Fortification upgrade or similar types of bad luck.

I have to tackle this statement because it disturbs me to my very core.
Just saying it can be one-shot and is therefore a downside is grasping at straws. .

Or stating a fact. One or the other. One cannot ignore the one-shot factor. Its real. Want a more "realistic" example? StormSurge missile. Just one. I mean whatevs. The point is, all armored being are frought with this peril except Super heavy Walkers.


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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

So now we can look at what I imagine you're talking about (maybe the Quad Gun). .

Nope. The Lascannon, generally mann'd by a BS 5 model if you can pull it off.

And the Battle Cannon/Demolisher Cannon can hit all your Warp Talons and kill all of them, which is a one-shot. We use Mathhammer for a reason.

For the record, BS5 doesn't change the math by much. We go from a 10% chance of being one-shotted to...11%.
Wow, that sure made all the difference.

I am surprised that their damage is so similar to Raptors, Krak Grenades are ace. I spaced out on the 1A base, excuse my math. Anyways...

There are a few ways to get around the WT core problems:

- no grenades = lock target unit in CC before charging, apply pinning to target unit, hit target unit with skull cannon (dreadskulls)
- overwatch = Dirge Caster, Pinning
- no AP2 = Misfortune for Shred+Rending
- survivability = Nurgle mark, blocking LOS terrain and vehicles, extreme threat saturation, psychic buffs + grimoire combos
- damage output = Attached IC with Hatred, Blood Tithe bonus attacks, psychic buffs/debuffs
- scatter issues = banner of blood+instrument+daemon of khorne (for zero-scatter chained DS)

It's a puzzle finding synergy to address those problems, I think you would need to look outside the vanilla codex. You could maybe make WT work independently as a skirmisher in sub-1000pts games, where there is less total firepower on the table and more room to manuever. Or keep them back, fix tough enemies with Spawn 1st, and finish with Warp Talons striking 2nd (at full initiative). It's still an ultra specialized unit. No krak grenades and no melta mean they have no damage against AV11+ without Rending.

Yoyoyo wrote:
I am surprised that their damage is so similar to Raptors, Krak Grenades are ace. I spaced out on the 1A base, excuse my math. Anyways...

There are a few ways to get around the WT core problems:

- no grenades = lock target unit in CC before charging, apply pinning to target unit, hit target unit with skull cannon (dreadskulls)
- overwatch = Dirge Caster, Pinning
- no AP2 = Misfortune for Shred+Rending
- survivability = Nurgle mark, blocking LOS terrain and vehicles, extreme threat saturation, psychic buffs + grimoire combos
- damage output = Attached IC with Hatred, Blood Tithe bonus attacks, psychic buffs/debuffs
- scatter issues = banner of blood+instrument+daemon of khorne (for zero-scatter chained DS)

It's a puzzle finding synergy to address those problems, I think you would need to look outside the vanilla codex. You could maybe make WT work independently as a skirmisher in sub-1000pts games, where there is less total firepower on the table and more room to manuever. Or keep them back, fix tough enemies with Spawn 1st, and finish with Warp Talons striking 2nd (at full initiative). It's still an ultra specialized unit. No krak grenades and no melta mean they have no damage against AV11+ without Rending.

Krak Grenades ARE awesome. I assault with Carcharodon Bikers ALL the time.

The main issue with addressing these problems is that either we can apply the same things to the Raptors or to better units in the first place. So we look at these one by one:
1. Even though the game DOES vary because of dice, Mathhammer will still average things out in the end. If I locked a unit in combat, I really shouldn't have to send something else to finish it off (seeing that I would want to finish off the squad on my opponent's turn, so that they're safe in the shooting phase). Otherwise, why couldn't I just do the same with another squad of Raptors?
2. Overwatch honestly isn't a big deal. It's a cool bonus, but it usually doesn't kill stuff to a huge extent.
3. This isn't bad, but I could still cast Misfortune to give the Raptors Rending on their guns and melee attacks as well.
4. I don't look at the Warp Talons from the Daemonkin codex. I know they have Furious Charge though, so at the very least you might as well take them from there if you want MoK Talons.
5. This doesn't happen until T2 at the earliest, and T3 at earliest for a charge. That's a LOT of points left in your reserves to only potentially Blind something.

Honestly? Had they gotten their Daemon mark bonuses on top of the Mark bonuses, they'd be significantly better. MoN ones would be T5 AND Shrouded? MoT gives 4++ and rerolling 1's on saves? MoS gives +1I and the Rending you want? MoK offers Rage AND Furious Charge?
No grenades and being already 30 points a pop is going to always hinder them though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How would he be able to take two gifts? Meh.

It's just a unit option for the champion. Possessed champs get it too. In small games I'm always tempted to make a possessed (or warp talon) champ as warlord and load him up with gifts and have a bit of a kinder surprise for what my general actually can do. I never do though 130 (or 160) points is a bit much to spend in a 600 point game!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The main issue with addressing these problems is that either we can apply the same things to the Raptors or to better units in the first place.

I came to the same conclusion. You really need to have a specific job in mind to make all the trouble worth it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Honestly? Had they gotten their Daemon mark bonuses on top of the Mark bonuses, they'd be significantly better. MoN ones would be T5 AND Shrouded? MoT gives 4++ and rerolling 1's on saves? MoS gives +1I and the Rending you want? MoK offers Rage AND Furious Charge?
No grenades and being already 30 points a pop is going to always hinder them though.

Totally agree, vanilla Talons would still be missing the goodies though. Unmarked CSM needs some very specific buffs to deal with their usual critical failures. Pricey 3+ units like Possessed and Talons dying to junk fire, boring old CSM failing to scare anyone. A "Chaos Undivided" unique psychic table perhaps?

0 - Assault 2, S6 AP2, if target model is removed the unit suffers an immediate Pinning test at -2LD (Focus Witchfire)
1 - Unmarked CSM unit gains Instant Death, permanently (Blessing)
2 - Unmarked CSM unit recieves +1 to Armor save, FNP for one turn (Blessing)
3 - Unmarked CSM unit recieves Fleet, MTC and Rampage for 1 turn (Blessing)
4 - Enemy unit applies -2 modifier to any Fear test. As an additional effect, Unmarked CSM units in combat increase Initiative by 1 for every point the test is failed by. (Malediction)
5 -Target vehicle takes a Haywire hit and CSM player may conduct a shooting attack in the Psychic phase using its weapons. If targeted vehicle is a transport, one random passenger is eaten. This attack is resolved using Daemonforge on vehicles with the Daemon rule. (Malediction)
6 - If target Unmarked champion kills a character this turn, treat as Multiple Rewards on the Boon table. You may reroll all results. (Blessing)

Anyway that's the idea. But you'd still need some decent icons and relics to balance out a CSM force with no psykers and no allies. Whoever updates that codex has their work cut out for them, internal balance, theme and intuitive synergy have a long way to go.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


Honestly? Had they gotten their Daemon mark bonuses on top of the Mark bonuses, they'd be significantly better. MoN ones would be T5 AND Shrouded? MoT gives 4++ and rerolling 1's on saves? MoS gives +1I and the Rending you want? MoK offers Rage AND Furious Charge?
No grenades and being already 30 points a pop is going to always hinder them though.

The daemonkin warp talons do have rage and furious charge. They are full on daemons of khorne plus mark. So they can no scatter deeptsrike as well as benefiting from the skull cannon in the same codex. which is by far the easiest option to get around the lack of grenades. And on top of all that they get the blood tithes bonuses like feel no pain or more attacks. PLUS they get a formation here for better hammer of wrath attacks (+1S). It also allows them to become 2++ without a grimoire if your taking allies (though I suppose that's up for debate). The lack of grenades and guns still hurts them, but they're MILES ahead of the csm version.

Of course that doesn't help the plight of csm Warp Talons. These are much harder to get to work and nothing guarantees they will since you'll need stuff like pinning and psychic powers. The skull cannon only has to hit, with a large blast no less, to bypass grenades.
Still, saying raptors could do the same isn't quite true. They lack the daemon special rule, and if your going to use warp talons, you will want to make use of that. Raptors can't be buffed by cursed earth, nor the grimoire. Depending on house rules even the legacy that buffs khorne daemons invulnerable save . Raptors can't blind upon arriving by deepstrike, potentially multiple times if using gate of infinity (assuming you count that as coming from reserves anyway). Also the lack of grenades doesn't stop an attached IC from attacking, which could also throw the single grenade allowed.

Does this mean they are better as a unit? No. But it does mean that given enough support they can be decent. Given appropriate support:
- They are worse against tanks but are potentially more dangerous vs anything with a wound value. As both can buff melee stats in equal measures, but the WT will always have AP3 and shred over the raptors. Mathhammer with pistols is nice and all, but AP3 guarantees that any unit above 2+ CANNOT save (bar invuln ofc). Any kind of guarantees are nice to have in a game of dice. (keep in mind the next point).
- Since we're assuming they have support, both can assault at initiative and ignore overwatch.
- Warp Talons can be significantly tougher. Both can get fnp and a 2+ cover save, but Raptors could only get up to a 3++ (tzeentch) while WT can go up to a 2++, regardless of mark. Potentially even without a grimoire (this would require a house rule).
- If also acting as escort, both will be able to throw a grenade and have access to plague grenades. Both can become fearless.
- Both are bad vs 2+ save units. I guess Raptors are cheap enough to tie up such a unit, but that's hardly an ideal scenario either. Actually, if you go the invulnerable save route then WT are a lot better at that, but even then it would be a bad idea, given how they can't really wound them.

You can't just take Warp talons on their own and expect them to do their thing like you can with raptors. And Raptors are much more flexible, being able to take on tanks or hordes and still be ok vs most things in between. They can work somewhat as a ranged unit, depending on terrain. Warp Talons NEED the appropriate support, but then they can have a place. Though even then WT will be better versus SOME things in between while being worse against tanks and hordes, but that's ok. They're not meant to be attacking the same targets anyway. And you don't have to bend over too much in order to make them work either. Psychic powers require units that most people are quite happy to take anyway. Slaaneshi themes also still seem to be popular so that would cover pinning. Grimoires are popular, and that codex comes with a skull cannon too, which isn't a bad unit by itself. Of course if your already taking allies you may as well take Daemonkin WT, but that's only an option if your fine with them being Khorne marked.

They are still too expensive for what you get and the fact that you can't take them on their own. But their definitely not so bad that you can simply ignore them if your facing them. Especially not when supported.
Also if you want to be taking certain units out for a spin like the chaos achilles, then you you may as well try to make use of that pinning penalty. And then there are team battles. So one side might be out for Leadership shenanigans to make that fear work or whatever else might allow you to field the talons without too much of a headache.

Sill, from competitive stand point there isn't really any reason to take Warp Talons. You have to WANT to take them and then deal with their short comings. Which CAN make them work, but you risk loosing key units and ending up with a sub par unit even when you do this. So it's too risky for too little gain if all your out for is a win.

Interesting ideas.

There's some cool threads on dakka lately.

There is a certain charm to fielding an underdog unit.

Especially if your opponent knows you are running one and it way outperforms your expectations.

Taking warp talons for this reason alone is worth it - sure you might not expect much from them - but if they assault a unit of marines and wipe the floor with them it is that much more satisfying.

Of course they can't be ignored. But they can be prioritized and outschemed. Compare to other units that dispense death from 36" away. Just the fact that these goobers have to come to me makes my life so much easier.

Well, sure, but we're not exactly spoiled for 36 inch + death dealing machines outside of forgeworld. And that's the advantage of being a ranged unit so it not exactly a fair comparison. Raptors fare equally bad then with their pistol range and the odd plasma gun.
Still, its only an advantage if you can actually see them. Granted, that's kind of hard to control.

Tau don't have the highest initiative so the blind effect might actually work against them.

Try to deepstrike some bloodletters first then use the horn/banner to bring in the talons automatically and place them with no scatter right where you can hit the most units with blind at 6 ".

Might actually work.

This doesn't work with the normal csm talons though, oly daemonkin. You'd only get D6 scatter since they don't share an alignment. Though this depends on houserulings I guess.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

And the Battle Cannon/Demolisher Cannon can hit all your Warp Talons and kill all of them, which is a one-shot. We use Mathhammer for a reason.

For the record, BS5 doesn't change the math by much. We go from a 10% chance of being one-shotted to...11%.
Wow, that sure made all the difference.

Yet, I'm not wrong.

You don't use MathHammer dude. You use What-If-Hammer. Lol.

Here's the reality. When I aim at you with a 35 point cannont, that hits on 2's... and penetrates you on a 4+... That's a 42% chance of penetrating your Heldrake. Tell me what that on shot means to a Warp Talons unit and you'll understand the difference.

Anything else is just missing the point dude. We wouldnt ever compare a damn battle cannon because it canrt reach both types of targets and you'd need me to clump AND you'd have ot hit dead on to make it even matter. What are the stats on THAT happening? Yeah. Exactly.

Tell your Blood lettsers to run the round they come in next time btw


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 chaosmarauder wrote:
Tau don't have the highest initiative so the blind effect might actually work against them.

Try to deepstrike some bloodletters first then use the horn/banner to bring in the talons automatically and place them with no scatter right where you can hit the most units with blind at 6 ".

Might actually work.

Blinding works great except for the Battlesuits which are immune.

You can also use slaanesh daemons to lower target's ini by 1 turn 1 and than try to blind.

Hallucination also works, if you get the "It's so beautiful" result. Which happens to be on the telepathy table which is already quite popular.

 Jancoran wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

And the Battle Cannon/Demolisher Cannon can hit all your Warp Talons and kill all of them, which is a one-shot. We use Mathhammer for a reason.

For the record, BS5 doesn't change the math by much. We go from a 10% chance of being one-shotted to...11%.
Wow, that sure made all the difference.

Yet, I'm not wrong.

You don't use MathHammer dude. You use What-If-Hammer. Lol.

Here's the reality. When I aim at you with a 35 point cannont, that hits on 2's... and penetrates you on a 4+... That's a 42% chance of penetrating your Heldrake. Tell me what that on shot means to a Warp Talons unit and you'll understand the difference.

Anything else is just missing the point dude. We wouldnt ever compare a damn battle cannon because it canrt reach both types of targets and you'd need me to clump AND you'd have ot hit dead on to make it even matter. What are the stats on THAT happening? Yeah. Exactly.

What does that even mean? You can potentially one-shot a Heldrake and potentially one-shot a Warp Talon squad. Your argument is that the Heldrake's weakness is that it can be one-shot. ANYTHING can be one-shot in this game. It's a gak argument and you know it, and that's why we use basic math, which you seem to not grasp despite saying you work with numbers every day.
I already presented the math for your Icarus Lascannon. It's a 32% to penetrate (you forgot the 5++) and 11% to glance. Once you add IWND and that it ignores Shaken and Stunned results on a 2+, I don't care about the penetrating hit quite frankly. I'll take a 11% chance for it to be destroyed just so I can fire the Baleflamer or Battlecannon/Autocannon (regarding the Blight Drone) again.

Also, you don't need to tell me. Large Blasts are nice for a reason; not including the numbered dice from the scatter, the scatter dice itself has a 33% for a perfect hit. Assuming all five Warp Talons fail their 5++, that's about 10% for that to happen altogether.
Also your Talons aren't going to be spread out because you're the one that thinks trying to use their Blind ability is a good idea, and therefore you're trying to Deep Strike them. Otherwise, they're only going to be spread out 1-2 inches. Isn't hard to accomplish.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

And the Battle Cannon/Demolisher Cannon can hit all your Warp Talons and kill all of them, which is a one-shot. We use Mathhammer for a reason.

For the record, BS5 doesn't change the math by much. We go from a 10% chance of being one-shotted to...11%.
Wow, that sure made all the difference.

Yet, I'm not wrong.

You don't use MathHammer dude. You use What-If-Hammer. Lol.

Here's the reality. When I aim at you with a 35 point cannont, that hits on 2's... and penetrates you on a 4+... That's a 42% chance of penetrating your Heldrake. Tell me what that on shot means to a Warp Talons unit and you'll understand the difference.

Anything else is just missing the point dude. We wouldnt ever compare a damn battle cannon because it canrt reach both types of targets and you'd need me to clump AND you'd have ot hit dead on to make it even matter. What are the stats on THAT happening? Yeah. Exactly.

What does that even mean? You can potentially one-shot a Heldrake and potentially one-shot a Warp Talon squad. Your argument is that the Heldrake's weakness is that it can be one-shot. ANYTHING can be one-shot in this game. It's a gak argument and you know it, and that's why we use basic math, which you seem to not grasp despite saying you work with numbers every day.
I already presented the math for your Icarus Lascannon. It's a 32% to penetrate (you forgot the 5++) and 11% to glance. Once you add IWND and that it ignores Shaken and Stunned results on a 2+, I don't care about the penetrating hit quite frankly. I'll take a 11% chance for it to be destroyed just so I can fire the Baleflamer or Battlecannon/Autocannon (regarding the Blight Drone) again.

Also, you don't need to tell me. Large Blasts are nice for a reason; not including the numbered dice from the scatter, the scatter dice itself has a 33% for a perfect hit. Assuming all five Warp Talons fail their 5++, that's about 10% for that to happen altogether.
Also your Talons aren't going to be spread out because you're the one that thinks trying to use their Blind ability is a good idea, and therefore you're trying to Deep Strike them. Otherwise, they're only going to be spread out 1-2 inches. Isn't hard to accomplish.

Do you not know that they can run the round they deep strike? is that new information or or are you just intentionally ignoring it? Which one is it?

The point originally was that Heldrakes are better than Warp Talons. I agreed that I generally prefer them. I also said that while that's true in most cases, the Heldrake is something the Warp Talons aren't: a one shot wonder.

Hit all five of the Warp Talons aaaaaand wound all five with one shot... how many are left, math guy? 1-2. Yup.

So...

We know 100% of the time the Heldrake can be one shot'd. We know this really isn't true of the Talons (dice happen but that's not what you're about is it?). THAT was the point. Stop right there and absorb it. Go no further MathHammer guy. Just absorb THAT.

It's just a symptom of you loving to argue with me on everything. Well, stop already. The act is old, PLUS you're wrong, which makes it worse. Hit all five Talons dead on and one survives, maybe two. Who knows. You're not one shotting them and that was LITERALLY the only point you are arguing...unsuccessfully.

Given your perfect storm, I am hitting automatically (I guess) so we're skipping that part of the math and just going right to penetrations. Railgun? 22% chance of exploding it, 15% adjusted for the invul save. Way higher than your Warp Talon one shot suggestion.