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This one is simple, make all formations have an associated cost. Back of the napkin eyeballing and play testing would go a far way.

For instance make the base decurion for necrons cost 150 points plus units. Make the battle demi company cost 100 and a full gladius cost 300. Furthermore if you take a Libby conclave have it pitch in 150 more just for its insane awesomeness, leaving your gladius down 450 on the starting blocks. Again all numbers would require actual thought to come to a conclusion however something should stick.

Fiddle the nobs and go down the row and there might be something there. Some formations obviously would still be free, especially most of the pre Necrons era. However you could instantly balance multi wraithknights lists by forcing in 100 or more a pop for taking the eldar battlehost. Any thoughts?

 lazarian wrote:


Fiddle the nobs and go down the row and there might be something there. Some formations obviously would still be free, especially most of the pre Necrons era. However you could instantly balance multi wraithknights lists by forcing in 100 or more a pop for taking the eldar battlehost. Any thoughts?

This part touches on why I feel weird about the idea. To me, formations and detachments shine when used to make a sub-par option viable or when used to open up options that weren't there before. This is soured somewhat by the tendency for certain formations/detachments to give you benefits even though the requirements for taking them aren't exactly subpar or restrictive. As much as I love the aspect host formation, it doesn't really provide me with any new options or shore up any weaknesses. Aspect warriors and exarchs are already (mostly) pretty good this edition. The formation doesn't let you use them in a new way so much as it just makes them better if you happened to be taking three squads of them already. The guardian formations, on the other hand, actually do a pretty alright job of making an Ulthwe-style army (lots of guardians backed up by psychic support) pretty viable.

I guess what I"m getting at is this: Your suggestion is a good one, especially for those formations meant to unlock an extra cool power or option when you take units that are already good. Part of me just wishes that this sort of thing were made a non-issue by reworking the problems with existing formations instead.

I also feel you have something of a tough sale on your hands. Players who take competitive formations for competitive reasons aren't likely to be happy about a nerf. Players who use formations "inefficiently," that is, those who take them because they seem cool or because they allow them to run a style of army they happen to like will basically be getting nerfed even though they aren't necessarily bringing that scary of a list. That hypothetical Ulthwe player, for instance, might want to bring a seer council to go with his guardian formation because it's fluffy and cool and rewards him for playing to a theme. Seer councils can be mean, but guardians hosts are quite reasonable. So at that point, you'd sort of be talking your non-competitive friend into playing with a minor handicap even though he's not bringing a hardcore tournament list. Which is fine if you happen to want to play with a not-hardcore-not-for-tournaments list that just so happens to be a bit weaker than his, but at that point, aren't you basically just saying, "Hey, this list of mine is cool, but I feel we're a bit mismatched. Would you mind giving me a handicap to make the game more interesting?" And at that point, isn't it easier to just negotiate handicaps than to frame it around formations specifically?

This post may not make much sense. It's late, and I'm tired.

I'm with you that the intent of formations was to give a reason to run specific things however it's sadly well out of hand and that concept is meaningless so something has to step in.

In regard to competitive games I think the change would be more welcome knowing that things get somewhat more balanced.

I think the point costs your putting down are kind of nuts.

Consider how much 100 points or 150 points could buy you? Consider the bare minimum cost of brining a decurion and then add another 150 to it.

It would become impossible to field without gutting all the customization.

I don't like this, 90 percent of formations are fine. I can think only a few that are broken.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I don't like this, 90 percent of formations are fine. I can think only a few that are broken.

Let me fix this statement for you.

All Pre Necron Formations are fine. Necron formations and every codex formation that came after that is broken.

Not really, no.

Look at the benefits the Ork Formation give, now look at the Necron ones. Aside from 1 or 2 problem ones (Destroyer Cult and Canoptek Harvest), the benefits are about equal.

The problem is that the Decurion Detachment (it's not a Formation) has a really powerful bonus on top of the small bonuses the base Formations give. When people cry foul over the Decurion, it isn't about the Relentless or Move Through Cover Warriors, Immortals, Lychguard and the like get.

It's the same kind of this with Space Marines. Free Tanks is way too good, but Objective Secured and a single Tactical Doctrine aren't crazy.

I would say the mega formations of formations are to much.

But most of the space marine formations on there own really arn't that much of a wow. It's only the double demi that is to much due to the free transports. The rest are decent but nothing crazy

The Ork ones are a damn joke lol. They have nice ideas but theyre just too massive and taxing to bring. I love the idea of bringing 5 battlewagons that dont eat my heavy slots, but 5 battlewagons...eesh thats hard to fill in a standard game with stuff! (well, and have something OUTSIDE the wagons too).

The unit composition of most of the formations make them priced fine. The ones that dont have the odd unit in there (or virtually useless unit that costs a fair chunk) are usually the problem because you would normally bring all those models anyway. Necron's 4+ Reanimation for instance. Both my necron friends always did a heavy warrior list and just banked on their resiliency as they walked up the board. Those formations did nothing but add to that, they literally already used those units. THAT is the problem, since it adds so damn much. for no tradeoff.

And yes i know Tau have some nasty ones too, but imho its only in the Hunter Contingent or Dawn Blade formation that they become a severe problem, because thats even more rules for free. Most of them (OSC excluded) are just "good" or "great" but not "amazing" on their own.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Not really, no.

Look at the benefits the Ork Formation give, now look at the Necron ones. Aside from 1 or 2 problem ones (Destroyer Cult and Canoptek Harvest), the benefits are about equal.

The problem is that the Decurion Detachment (it's not a Formation) has a really powerful bonus on top of the small bonuses the base Formations give. When people cry foul over the Decurion, it isn't about the Relentless or Move Through Cover Warriors, Immortals, Lychguard and the like get.

It's the same kind of this with Space Marines. Free Tanks is way too good, but Objective Secured and a single Tactical Doctrine aren't crazy.

Thats funny, in what world are the benefits that Necrons get from formations/detachments in anyway equal to the garbage GW gave to the orks. The buff for ork formation? if I roll a 10 on the charge, And my unit has 10+ models I get to have a bunch of S3 HoW attacks whoopee!

MorkorpossiblyGork wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Not really, no.

Look at the benefits the Ork Formation give, now look at the Necron ones. Aside from 1 or 2 problem ones (Destroyer Cult and Canoptek Harvest), the benefits are about equal.

The problem is that the Decurion Detachment (it's not a Formation) has a really powerful bonus on top of the small bonuses the base Formations give. When people cry foul over the Decurion, it isn't about the Relentless or Move Through Cover Warriors, Immortals, Lychguard and the like get.

It's the same kind of this with Space Marines. Free Tanks is way too good, but Objective Secured and a single Tactical Doctrine aren't crazy.

Thats funny, in what world are the benefits that Necrons get from formations/detachments in anyway equal to the garbage GW gave to the orks. The buff for ork formation? if I roll a 10 on the charge, And my unit has 10+ models I get to have a bunch of S3 HoW attacks whoopee!

That is actually on par with a 4+ RP ... not sure what you are on about?

How is getting ~6 S3 HoW once MAYBE twice a game on par with a 50-50 middle finger to any damage the entire game?

Dont get me wrong, that S3 HoW has won me combats in the past, but i go through way too many games where i dont even get it at all either because i didnt roll 10+ before distance modifiers or i was below 10 models. And thats exclusively Boyz that get this, since no other unit is large enough and Warbikers have it by default. Virtually the entire damn Necron dex can get a 50-50 middle finger save.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
How is getting ~6 S3 HoW once MAYBE twice a game on par with a 50-50 middle finger to any damage the entire game?

Dont get me wrong, that S3 HoW has won me combats in the past, but i go through way too many games where i dont even get it at all either because i didnt roll 10+ before distance modifiers or i was below 10 models. And thats exclusively Boyz that get this, since no other unit is large enough and Warbikers have it by default. Virtually the entire damn Necron dex can get a 50-50 middle finger save.

But on the plus side we have a bunch of expensive fragile Walker vehicles that carry next to nothing as far as Dakka.

ikr? i mean, our deffdredds are only marginally cheaper than a vanilla marine dreadnought now, practically identical in melee with less init (we used to have way more attacks), and still no guns we can use.

/derailment

I had high hopes for the formations in the Ghaz supplement but even those turned out to be mostly garbage. Most are gimmicky (IE Blitz brigade, Green tide) or just flat out useless (Storm Boy formation or the Council)

What really bugs me is when people say "just wait until you get your 7th edition codex"......WE ALREADY DID! it just sucked.

Orks, alas, are stuck in the "7.0" release series. Pretty much nothing from there is top-tier; only Space Wolves are really even competitive. This leaves them, regrettably, stuck down with CSM, DE and Sisters in the stinko-tier codices. At least CSM have KDK and Daemons, DE have Harlies and CWE, and Sisters have the rest of the Imperium. Orks got the shaft :/

I just hope they hurry up and release solid new books for IG, Nids (likely), CSM (might happen), GK, BA, DE, SW (not impossible), Orks, Inquisition and Sisters (dream on...)

Then again, that's what this forum is for, ne? Nerf the OP stuff, buff the UP stuff...

Funny thing about Orks, Nids, and CSM. They are the iconic bad guys in the fluff, people usually think them when they think enemies of the imperium, not eldar, DE, tau, or even plain Chaos though theyre kinda on the fence with it.

Notice how all 3 of those codexes suck balls right now? And they all suffer from the same damn thing - overcosted toys, crap armor saves, not many options, or the counter to what they have is common practice to bring regardless of what youre facing. They also have terrible formations comparatively.

"Bad guys are the bad guys, they gotta lose to the good guys!" ....this is a game GW not a book.

And before someone says something: Necrons are not bad guys...not anymore at least.
Sisters are just ancient and might as well be taken off the shelf its been so damn long since theyve been touched, so thats their excuse.

What kills me is that the current Sisters 'dex is from 6e - and not first-string-of-releases 6e, either. It's actually decently balanced, mostly just missing things (assault transports and anti-air)... I mean, if I was gonna respin it, I'd cut costs across the board and glue on a few more units, but that's gravy to bring it up to the same tier as non-formation Dark Angels or Space Marines.

MorkorpossiblyGork wrote:
I had high hopes for the formations in the Ghaz supplement but even those turned out to be mostly garbage. Most are gimmicky (IE Blitz brigade, Green tide) or just flat out useless (Storm Boy formation or the Council)

What really bugs me is when people say "just wait until you get your 7th edition codex"......WE ALREADY DID! it just sucked.

THAT is the main reason I worry about when CSM gets an update sometime in the next 17 years.

On topic. I'm ok with formations that add some special rules for the sake of uniqueness or letting some units act like they would according to fluff. As long as they don't give free units or buff a currently existing good rule and make it a send it over the edge to broken rule. My example of that being the reanimation protocols being turned into a "50-50 middle figure to damage" as Vineheart1 put it. If a formation has a rule that gives it character but doesn't necessarily break it, then its ok in my book. Take the Kharne's Butcherhorde formation for example. This is a great example of cool concept for a formation that just doesn't work because the unit its consists of make it poor. For those who don't know, it requires Kharne, 4 units of MoK CSM, and 4 units of Berserkers. Which bare minimum is 920pts. The advantage of the formation are Adamantium Will, the ability to double a units attacks on a charge of 8, and an additional roll to hit for every 6 rolled to hit in assault. This keeps going until you stop rolling 6's.

Conceptually, its very cool. Unfortunately, after you factor in everything else like rhinos, additional models, and the fact that your taking 4 units of CSM, it just isn't viable. I do not think a formation like this should have an additional points tax to get these special rules. Mostly because they will only come into effect maybe once or twice in the game, since the very nature of them depend on rolling a specific number to activate them. The rules are a gimmick and when they activate, it's fluffy and awesome, but they are not something you can rely on as a list mechanic because they are not constantly active nor guaranteed. If this formation was to be taxed points, I feel it should only be for adamantium will, since easier denies can actually be a pretty big deal. Especially since a mostly khorne list isn't going to have nearly any psychic dice.

Better RP and free tanks feel cheesy because a constant threat Even with a unit tax, the free rules come into play every turn in some way or another. If you payed another 100 to 200 pts to get that better RP, I would have much less of an issue playing against it. Paying for the rules makes you appreciate the rules. It requires you to make a conscious decision during list building to decide that you rather have better rules for a bunch of units versus upgraded equipment or another unit. It makes taking the formation a tactical decision. Free tanks are same way. I would have a lot less issues if the tanks were just paid for, even if its at a discount.

TLDR; Formations grant additional rules, additional rules cost points everywhere else, thus formations that provide constant rules should have an additional cost.

MorkorpossiblyGork wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Not really, no.

Look at the benefits the Ork Formation give, now look at the Necron ones. Aside from 1 or 2 problem ones (Destroyer Cult and Canoptek Harvest), the benefits are about equal.

The problem is that the Decurion Detachment (it's not a Formation) has a really powerful bonus on top of the small bonuses the base Formations give. When people cry foul over the Decurion, it isn't about the Relentless or Move Through Cover Warriors, Immortals, Lychguard and the like get.

It's the same kind of this with Space Marines. Free Tanks is way too good, but Objective Secured and a single Tactical Doctrine aren't crazy.

Thats funny, in what world are the benefits that Necrons get from formations/detachments in anyway equal to the garbage GW gave to the orks. The buff for ork formation? if I roll a 10 on the charge, And my unit has 10+ models I get to have a bunch of S3 HoW attacks whoopee!

Way to not read what I said. The Decurion isn't a Formation, it's a Detachment (even if it is made up of them).
The actual benefits most of the Formations give are pretty minor. e.g. Relentless (on guys with Rapid-Fire weapons that aren't meant to be in Assault), Move Through Cover and re-rolling RP rolls of a 1 if you're within 12" of the Formation's Overlord.

The Ork Warband Formation doesn't just give HoW with a 10+ charge roll, it also gives you Waaagh! every turn except the first. For an army that is very combat-centred, 5th Ed Fleet is a huge bonus! You cover way more ground with that than Necrons do with MTC. You also get a Warlord re-roll, which I agree is pretty meh. That's pretty on-par with the Necron Reclamation Legion.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

MorkorpossiblyGork wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Not really, no.

Look at the benefits the Ork Formation give, now look at the Necron ones. Aside from 1 or 2 problem ones (Destroyer Cult and Canoptek Harvest), the benefits are about equal.

The problem is that the Decurion Detachment (it's not a Formation) has a really powerful bonus on top of the small bonuses the base Formations give. When people cry foul over the Decurion, it isn't about the Relentless or Move Through Cover Warriors, Immortals, Lychguard and the like get.

It's the same kind of this with Space Marines. Free Tanks is way too good, but Objective Secured and a single Tactical Doctrine aren't crazy.

Thats funny, in what world are the benefits that Necrons get from formations/detachments in anyway equal to the garbage GW gave to the orks. The buff for ork formation? if I roll a 10 on the charge, And my unit has 10+ models I get to have a bunch of S3 HoW attacks whoopee!

Way to not read what I said. The Decurion isn't a Formation, it's a Detachment (even if it is made up of them).
The actual benefits most of the Formations give are pretty minor. e.g. Relentless (on guys with Rapid-Fire weapons that aren't meant to be in Assault), Move Through Cover and re-rolling RP rolls of a 1 if you're within 12" of the Formation's Overlord.

The Ork Warband Formation doesn't just give HoW with a 10+ charge roll, it also gives you Waaagh! every turn except the first. For an army that is very combat-centred, 5th Ed Fleet is a huge bonus! You cover way more ground with that than Necrons do with MTC. You also get a Warlord re-roll, which I agree is pretty meh. That's pretty on-par with the Necron Reclamation Legion.

Wow way to not read i specifically say formations/Detachments in my post. But anyway on to the ork warband, it is a decent formation, but its not good because waaghing every turn except the 1st turn is given to a lot of different formations for us. And the formation tax is that your required to take 6 units of boys and a unit of gretchin. The unit of nobz/meganobz is also a tax because they are supbar at best. The only way to make that detachment worth taking is to take it with a ton of trukkz (7 trukkz) and even then that defeats the purpose of waaghing every turn.

ON the other hand you could maximize the size of the boyz squads and attempt to footslog, which would make waaaghing useful, of course then your fielding 180 boyz in a different version of a green tide. And because your not able to take any painboyz or big mekz your going to lose these guys pretty quickly.

I Played a green tide against an eldar player who literally killed 80 of my 100 boyz in 2 turns with a couple scat bikes and warwalkers. He wasn't even running an optimized list which means that in competition now its almost impossible to field a horde army without bringing a VSG with you and a couple painboyz to soak up those wounds.


So yes back on subject I would gladly trade you my Waaaghing every turn AND my S3 HoW if you manage to roll 10+ on the assault for all my boyz can gain a 4+++ or hell even a 5+++ middle Finger save

Ork Warband is hardly a good detachment. We are in a meta where the "boys before toys" motto is dead. I play orks significantly better in the current dex with more toys than boyz because boyz are too easy to counter. Which is why all except our Meganobz are so bad, they die to anything just by looking at them.

Also, Warboss that isnt on a bike is pretty easy to kill. Kill the warboss, we lose our perma-waaagh. And not like the waaagh means jack squat unless we somehow managed to get the Fearless warlord trait (oh btw we cant reroll warlord traits with that detachment, it shockingly omits that bonus that every detachment adds back in) because unless we can charge that turn, it does NOTHING for us. Necron lord dies, 4+ RP is still in effect.

I seriously dont get how you can compare these codices.

I guess I don't see the issue with free transports for the gladius when you have to take a massive tax to unlock that option. Tacticals are horrible and I have to take SIX units of them to unlock free transports?. That right there is a 420 point tax. That is 280 points more than your standard CAD. And often the auxiliary is more of a hindrance than a benefit. The gladius shoehorns a person into a lot of garbage. It is the objective secured for the entire detachment that saves the gladius. The free transports is what makes the Gladius playable giving some mobility to the units. The Gladius for me as an IH player has often been a real hindrance. It forces me to take a lot of things that are horrible in my army. As an IH player I want multiwound models with T5 (preferably with multiple saves as well) and dreadnoughts. Those are the only things taht really benefit from my chapter tactics. Quite frankly the dreadnoughts aren't very good either because of how fragile vehicles are, so that leaves me with multi-wound models with t5 and ideally multiple saves. That doesn't leave much room for a lot. The real sad thing is if machine empathy extended to all vehicles that were IH like it used to, it still wouldn't help much even with the gladius because of how fragile vehicles are.

Agreed -There is no reason to say no unless you like exploits...........

No[u] army should get free stuff if all armies don't get. Currently its just a sanctioned and encouraged exploit of the rules.

Any formation that gives befits can be costs whther it be 5pts or 500 pts. The ONLY issue woud have much would be fair - but thats like repointing solid walking cheese like WraithKinghts/Riptides. Ain;t gonna happen - people enjoy the advantage it gives them way too much.

It should be both Formations and Detachments................

MorkorpossiblyGork wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

MorkorpossiblyGork wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Not really, no.

Look at the benefits the Ork Formation give, now look at the Necron ones. Aside from 1 or 2 problem ones (Destroyer Cult and Canoptek Harvest), the benefits are about equal.

The problem is that the Decurion Detachment (it's not a Formation) has a really powerful bonus on top of the small bonuses the base Formations give. When people cry foul over the Decurion, it isn't about the Relentless or Move Through Cover Warriors, Immortals, Lychguard and the like get.

It's the same kind of this with Space Marines. Free Tanks is way too good, but Objective Secured and a single Tactical Doctrine aren't crazy.

Thats funny, in what world are the benefits that Necrons get from formations/detachments in anyway equal to the garbage GW gave to the orks. The buff for ork formation? if I roll a 10 on the charge, And my unit has 10+ models I get to have a bunch of S3 HoW attacks whoopee!

Way to not read what I said. The Decurion isn't a Formation, it's a Detachment (even if it is made up of them).
The actual benefits most of the Formations give are pretty minor. e.g. Relentless (on guys with Rapid-Fire weapons that aren't meant to be in Assault), Move Through Cover and re-rolling RP rolls of a 1 if you're within 12" of the Formation's Overlord.

The Ork Warband Formation doesn't just give HoW with a 10+ charge roll, it also gives you Waaagh! every turn except the first. For an army that is very combat-centred, 5th Ed Fleet is a huge bonus! You cover way more ground with that than Necrons do with MTC. You also get a Warlord re-roll, which I agree is pretty meh. That's pretty on-par with the Necron Reclamation Legion.

Wow way to not read i specifically say formations/Detachments in my post. But anyway on to the ork warband, it is a decent formation, but its not good because waaghing every turn except the 1st turn is given to a lot of different formations for us. And the formation tax is that your required to take 6 units of boys and a unit of gretchin. The unit of nobz/meganobz is also a tax because they are supbar at best. The only way to make that detachment worth taking is to take it with a ton of trukkz (7 trukkz) and even then that defeats the purpose of waaghing every turn.

ON the other hand you could maximize the size of the boyz squads and attempt to footslog, which would make waaaghing useful, of course then your fielding 180 boyz in a different version of a green tide. And because your not able to take any painboyz or big mekz your going to lose these guys pretty quickly.

I Played a green tide against an eldar player who literally killed 80 of my 100 boyz in 2 turns with a couple scat bikes and warwalkers. He wasn't even running an optimized list which means that in competition now its almost impossible to field a horde army without bringing a VSG with you and a couple painboyz to soak up those wounds.


So yes back on subject I would gladly trade you my Waaaghing every turn AND my S3 HoW if you manage to roll 10+ on the assault for all my boyz can gain a 4+++ or hell even a 5+++ middle Finger save

In the post I was originally refuting... no. You only mentioned Formations.

Then you replied to me saying I was wrong because of a Detachment, not a Formation.
THE NECRON FORMATIONS GIVE SMALL BONUSES, THE DETACHMENT DOES NOT.
You want your boys to have relentless and MTC? You can't even use Relentless as your boys only have assault weapons. There's no way to get a 4++ (bar taking crypteks which can't be spammed with out a decent points tax) in any Necron Formation unless you take the Decurion Detachment on top of them.


I'm not opposed to point costing Formations... but if it's to price them too high to make the Decurion-style detachments cost a lot... no. They should be costed a small amount with the Detachments themselves also geting a points cost. The other way is like saying we make a Troops choice X cost +100 points because the army can take an OP LoW.

Formation, detachment, whatever you call it some of them should be a few more points.

The numbers I spit out were a start. Some/most formations are rather tame and should see no point cost... Some are different. This was the crux of the suggestion: some things are desirable even if you added a 100 point tax.

The entire gladius has objective secured, arguably as powerful as free transports. It would still be taken at +100 or +150. Eldar battlehosts are able to spam wraithknights, and the would still be spammed at a 50-100 or so premium per.

Think of the best formations/detachments or whatever, like the skyhammer or decurion. Think of a price point where you would still take the formation. Therein lies the crux of the argument.

A demi company giving objective secured is not worth 50 points let alone 100. It requires you to take three meh troop choices, meh hqs unless you got for chapter master smash or khan, one fast attack and either devastators who are meh or cents who will need you to take another CAD to give them a drop pod.

To be frank the free transports is dumb but other than that the worst thing a marine book can make is a cad with allies to do grav star. Nothing your proposing would fix that.

The way 40k currently constructs their missions the gladius is almost unbeatable, frankly due to every one of those subpar unit your deriding bringing along another 50 or more percent more unit. You can spam for 90 points a group of 5 tac marines and a lasplas razorback... 10 of them. For 900 points you have twenty... twenty! Objective secure unique units with las plas and krak grenades for anti tank. It shrinks to 700 for drop pods or rhinos. You still have to take on 180 in two more durable obj secured units and you pick after that in who knows what you feel like.

Make it white scars, raven guard, iron hands or red scorpions and they are even more durable and elusive. It is painful to play against this army is maelstrom or normal missions. You have limited chance against this list, your never tabling it.

The companies strength overwhelmingly is in two simple facets: board control and winning the game.... it might be worth a few more points

 lazarian wrote:
The way 40k currently constructs their missions the gladius is almost unbeatable, frankly due to every one of those subpar unit your deriding bringing along another 50 or more percent more unit. You can spam for 90 points a group of 5 tac marines and a lasplas razorback... 10 of them. For 900 points you have twenty... twenty! Objective secure unique units with las plas and krak grenades for anti tank. It shrinks to 700 for drop pods or rhinos. You still have to take on 180 in two more durable obj secured units and you pick after that in who knows what you feel like.

Make it white scars, raven guard, iron hands or red scorpions and they are even more durable and elusive. It is painful to play against this army is maelstrom or normal missions. You have limited chance against this list, your never tabling it.

The companies strength overwhelmingly is in two simple facets: board control and winning the game.... it might be worth a few more points

I disagree with you on Iron Hands being more durable. a fnp OF 6+ is rarely relevant. And smash is a HUGE points sink. I have played my IH without using my chapter tactics a few times after the sm codex, and it literally wasn't noticeable on anything except the CM smash and command squad, or a centstar with libs. An army requiring big expensive units to be decent does not a good army make. Please, just stop trying to make it sound like the IH are actually good by grouping them with scars ect.

As far as all those free tanks go, if you play a reasonably competitive opponent (especially eldar) the tanks probably won't last past turn two at the most.

I agree that a 6+ fnp is slight however when dealing with dozen of separate units it is the difference of units dying or surviving with the occasional odd survivor. The army is about babysitting objectives 3 or 4 deep with objective secured units. Your offense is pretty low but again your opponent is only getting so many shooting phases. There is only so many dice rolls they can make and if you go the drop pod route you easily can shave one of those rounds off.

Killing ten plus vehicles isn't a given for even a cent star unit which will not be able to typically rack up the objective points like a slot machine. With split fire best outcome it maybe kills 2 units a turn and even then one split fire cent doesn't math out a vehicle a turn by itself so more like 1 ish for a squd that is going to be north of 4 to 500 points... I've played against and with this many times, you just run out of time and there are still bodies all over place just gladly looting your objectives.

With that said white scars are easily the best and I do agree a whole scouting hit and run chapter is way more valuable.. Which in no way invalidates my original point that it might need a point hike.