Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

While it is true that mass shootings are less frequent in Canada, its folly to think that more gun control will eliminate this kind of thing.

---------------------------
(CNN)Four people were killed and an alleged shooter was arrested Friday after gunfire erupted at a school in a small town in northern Saskatchewan, Chief Superintendent Maureen Levy of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police said Friday night.

Levy said authorities received a call about 1 p.m. Friday saying a weapon had been discharged at La Loche Community School in La Loche. Officers went to the school and at 1:47 p.m. arrested a suspect and seized his weapon.

Earlier reports said five people had been killed and two wounded.

Police were investigating at two sites, the school and a residence in the town, Levy said. The injured were taken to University Hospital in Saskatoon, she said.

Levy revealed few details and wouldn't give the names of the suspect or victims, whether the shooter and victims were students and what kind of weapon was used, saying the integrity of the investigation had to be protected.

Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau earlier addressed the nation, saying, "Obviously this is every parent's worst nightmare" and calling it "a terrible, tragic day."

'Run, bro, run!'

The Star Phoenix newspaper quoted a student who said he was returning from lunch when shots were fired at the school. He said friends ran past him urging him to get out.

"Run, bro, run!" Noel Desjarlais-Thomas, 16, said his friends told him as they fled. "There's a shotgun! There's a shotgun! They were just yelling to me. And then I was hearing those shots, too, so of course I started running."

School coordinator Norma Janvier told the Star Phoenix she was in her office when she heard shots.

"I didn't know what was going on," she said. "I thought the kids were just playing around or something, like a locker slamming and stuff."

She said another teacher stopped her from leaving the office so she waited until someone said it was safe.

"All I heard was cops running around in the school," she said.

Making political points about a tragedy in the first post already, dakka is getting faster!

Earlier reports said five people had been killed and two wounded.

Can we have a different thread title, please?

 Spinner wrote:

Earlier reports said five people had been killed and two wounded.

Can we have a different thread title, please?

A slightly less incendiary one. Done

 Spinner wrote:

Earlier reports said five people had been killed and two wounded.

Can we have a different thread title, please?

Why?

Why the hell do people feel the need to harm children?

You know what...this is ridiculous...there was nothing wrong with that thread title.

You guys need to grow up on here.

This forum has gone to the dogs.. I think it's time I move on to a place where the thought police aren't so active.

GG

This isn't about "thought police", this is about being respectful towards murdered people and not IMMEDIATELY turning this into a political topic from the get-go.

We can move on from the title issue. The title is what it is.

I couldn't agree with relapse more, it's always sad to hear about these incidents.

Yeah. Obviously gun control will not eliminate shootings. As long as weapons are available someway or another, there is always going to be people with access to them who can decide to use them.
But I do not think that it is a coincidence that school shootings are so very much rarer in Canada or Europe than in the US.

lets see america has a school shooting weekly and has no gun control worth mentioning.

Canada has 1 every 5 years on average and has much more strict gun laws.

conclusion, gun laws don't work?

And unlike in america they caught the suspect and he's still alive.

The town’s acting mayor, Kevin Janvier, told The Associated Press his daughter Marie, a teacher, was shot dead by the gunman. The assailant first shot two of his own siblings, police told Janvier, before laying siege on the school.

“He shot two of his brothers at his home and made his way to the school,” he said. “I’m just so sad.”

the shooter then tweeted.

“Just killed 2 people,” wrote the young male. “Bout to shoot ip the school.”

“Why?” asked a friend. “Why?”

he shoots his two brothers, then heads to the school, even canada has some seriously unstable people.

source:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/dead-la-loche-canada-school-shooting-article-1.2506479

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Yeah. Obviously gun control will not eliminate shootings. As long as weapons are available someway or another, there is always going to be people with access to them who can decide to use them.
But I do not think that it is a coincidence that school shootings are so very much rarer in Canada or Europe than in the US.

This. Also, it looks like the community is mostly First Nations, meaning that there are a gakton more issues than the average part of Canada.

Well it not really a school shooting so dumb title. The man shot two siblings and went and shot his kid and got someone else two.

I am not even going to post my usual points in what is likely going to turn into a locked gun debate thread.
I am interested in what the common mental thread is in these people who kill children. Were they bullied themselves as kids, chemical imbalance, just an ass hole, or some combination?

Relapse wrote:
I am not even going to post my usual points in what is likely going to turn into a locked gun debate thread.
I am interested in what the common mental thread is in these people who kill children. Were they bullied themselves as kids, chemical imbalance, just an ass hole, or some combination?

Don't blame me for the thread title.

But on to the other points...one of the posters suggested that it was Canada gun control policies which is responsible for the reduced number of incidents. I can partially buy that, in that usually any kind of prohibition will reduce usage and access, and therefore less incidents. But was there a larger incident of Canadian shootings, before they introduced massive gun bans which we can truly point to and say...yeah...we had this many mass shootings before, and now we have less than before.

What does the data say ?

Its entirely possible that Canada has always had less of a mass shooting issue, and one thing didn't necessarily influence the other.(significantly)

However, I think it's a Post hoc ergo propter hoc problem....

I wonder if it's something else, that contributes to the problem in America.. Do Canadians get more mental health access....or are they less stressed out ?


GG

Relapse wrote:

I am interested in what the common mental thread is in these people who kill children. Were they bullied themselves as kids, chemical imbalance, just an ass hole, or some combination?

Same as it ever was. It's easy and makes the biggest impact for shock value. Kill an adult male, get a little response; kill an adult woman, more response; kill children, the biggest response.

Ancient tribes threw babies on to spears. This type of terror is nothing new, and I'm loathe to connect it to the more common child abusers (pedos, molesters, serial child killers etc.) as I don't think it's connected. It's a pissed off (commonly substance abusing) male that wants to punish those around him and shock the world. Kids are really easy to accomplish that goal with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 generalgrog wrote:


I wonder if it's something else, that contributes to the problem in America.. Do Canadians get more mental health access....or are they less stressed out ?


GG

No, I don't think they do. But they do have very limited access to handguns. America has very accessible handguns, and they are by far the most common weapon used in these scenarios.

And that is why the gun control debate fails, because most legislatures have attacked rifles, which are almost never used, your obvious political bias notwithstanding. But hey, at least you didn't say an American would have shot the perp, that's a start in the right direction.

 generalgrog wrote:

Relapse wrote:
I am not even going to post my usual points in what is likely going to turn into a locked gun debate thread.
I am interested in what the common mental thread is in these people who kill children. Were they bullied themselves as kids, chemical imbalance, just an ass hole, or some combination?

Don't blame me for the thread title.

But on to the other points...one of the posters suggested that it was Canada gun control policies which is responsible for the reduced number of incidents. I can partially buy that, in that usually any kind of prohibition will reduce usage and access, and therefore less incidents. But was there a larger incident of Canadian shootings, before they introduced massive gun bans which we can truly point to and say...yeah...we had this many mass shootings before, and now we have less than before.

What does the data say ?

Its entirely possible that Canada has always had less of a mass shooting issue, and one thing didn't necessarily influence the other.(significantly)

However, I think it's a Post hoc ergo propter hoc problem....

I wonder if it's something else, that contributes to the problem in America.. Do Canadians get more mental health access....or are they less stressed out ?


GG

Don't blame you for the thread title?! So you're not responsible for what your fingers type?! Wow. I need this super power like right now.

On topic, tragic for any loss of life. And the fact that it's children who didn't even get to really experience life. :(

 timetowaste85 wrote:

Don't blame you for the thread title?! So you're not responsible for what your fingers type?! Wow. I need this super power like right now.

Yes Comrade Moderator, thought my original title was a thought crime, and antisepticized it, to what we have now... Please pay attention.

GG

CBC had a timeline of "School Shootings" in Canada

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/deadly-shootings-schools-canada-1.3416685

Note that one of them was actually a Robbery of an ATM machine.

 generalgrog wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:

Don't blame you for the thread title?! So you're not responsible for what your fingers type?! Wow. I need this super power like right now.

Yes Comrade Moderator, thought my original title was a thought crime, and antisepticized it, to what we have now... Please pay attention.

GG

Oh, believe me; I was. I think you were being blamed for your original title. Not what it was changed to.

 motyak wrote:
We can move on from the title issue

This time it's in red. Topic guys, topic

DutchWinsAll wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 generalgrog wrote:


I wonder if it's something else, that contributes to the problem in America.. Do Canadians get more mental health access....or are they less stressed out ?


GG

No, I don't think they do. But they do have very limited access to handguns. America has very accessible handguns, and they are by far the most common weapon used in these scenarios.

And that is why the gun control debate fails, because most legislatures have attacked rifles, which are almost never used, your obvious political bias notwithstanding. But hey, at least you didn't say an American would have shot the perp, that's a start in the right direction.

It's not so much that we have any kind of limited access to hand guns or other types of fire arms up here, rather, the amount of government red tape & licencing hoops you have to jump through just to legally purchase them.
It's expensive, time consuming, and at times seems ass backwards.

From what a number of my friends who are gun owners have mentioned to me, legal gun ownership up here is just a giant headache. Some of 'em have just let their permits run out and gotten rid of certain firearms because it's way more hassle than it's worth for them to legally keep them.

I really do wish the mental health access was better in the usa. I think it would help significantly. Hopefully we can agree on that. Someone with mental problems would kill with whatever they have. A gun is just sort of a modifier. I mean if somebody makes an improvised bomb that's illegal but it still happened.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I really do wish the mental health access was better in the usa. I think it would help significantly. Hopefully we can agree on that. Someone with mental problems would kill with whatever they have. A gun is just sort of a modifier. I mean if somebody makes an improvised bomb that's illegal but it still happened.

It isn't really an issue with mental health access, it's an issue with people actively seeking help for mental health issues.

There is a HUGE stigma associated with someone seeking serious mental health treatment on a regular basis.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I really do wish the mental health access was better in the usa. I think it would help significantly. Hopefully we can agree on that. Someone with mental problems would kill with whatever they have. A gun is just sort of a modifier. I mean if somebody makes an improvised bomb that's illegal but it still happened.

I seriously doubt that Canadian access to mental healthcare is any better than in the US. Our system is equally lagging behind and is currently incapable of copping with the number of potential patients who are need of those types of services.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I mean if somebody makes an improvised bomb that's illegal but it still happened.

Although significantly more difficult than using a gun you own, or buying a gun, and then shooting people.

Perhaps General Grog is right about stress levels. I feel like the usa is incredibly stressed out. Then again places in asia should be much worse (china or japan). Japan has gun control in effect to my knowledge though.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I really do wish the mental health access was better in the usa. I think it would help significantly. Hopefully we can agree on that. Someone with mental problems would kill with whatever they have. A gun is just sort of a modifier. I mean if somebody makes an improvised bomb that's illegal but it still happened.

I seriously doubt that Canadian access to mental healthcare is any better than in the US. Our system is equally lagging behind and is currently incapable of copping with the number of potential patients who are need of those types of services.

And we barley have a system at all. A lot of our seriously mentally ill end up on the streets or in jail.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Perhaps General Grog is right about stress levels. I feel like the usa is incredibly stressed out. Then again places in asia should be much worse (china or japan). Japan has gun control in effect to my knowledge though.

Japanese gun control is pretty strict IIRC (I think you are allowed to have guns stored at a shooting range ad that's it or somthing).

Japan does have very high stress levels, and is 17th for suicide rates.

DutchWinsAll wrote:

Relapse wrote:

I am interested in what the common mental thread is in these people who kill children. Were they bullied themselves as kids, chemical imbalance, just an ass hole, or some combination?

Same as it ever was. It's easy and makes the biggest impact for shock value. Kill an adult male, get a little response; kill an adult woman, more response; kill children, the biggest response.

Ancient tribes threw babies on to spears. This type of terror is nothing new, and I'm loathe to connect it to the more common child abusers (pedos, molesters, serial child killers etc.) as I don't think it's connected. It's a pissed off (commonly substance abusing) male that wants to punish those around him and shock the world. Kids are really easy to accomplish that goal with.

It is more than just being pissed off though. There is lots of pissed off people, but the vast majority wouldn't even think of killing kids. People who do that are not just pissed off, they have severe mental issues and virtually always have many signs of psychopathy as well. It would be interesting to see if someone has done research into mental disorders that school shooters and such might have in common.

I am going to hold back for the sake of not having this deleted.

Firearms aren't banned in Canada. We have non-restricted, restricted, and prohibited. Certain laws allow certain individuals to possess prohibited firearms.

Suggesting that our gun control laws don't entirely stop gun violence is bs. Per this article in the Wall Street Journal...

http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-leads-world-in-mass-shootings-1443905359

Between 2000 and 2014, the US had 133 Mass Shootings. Canada had... 3. Our population is about 1/9 of the US, so all things being equal, we would expect 14 or 15 mass shootings. Such a shooting is 1/5 as likely as the numbers would suggest. You might also note, that of the Canadian Mass shootings, I can only think of one shooting that had more than the "minimum" 4, which was at a French College in the 80's.

Compared to dozens killed in a single rampage in the US, which is happening at a rate of approximately 9 or 10 per year. The US has 3 times as many shootings in a YEAR as we've had in the last 14.

All loss of life to violence is tragic.

Pointing at these murders and saying, "See, you guys aren't perfect, so we should do nothing!" is an indication of the callous that seems to have grown on some advocates. We might not be able to prevent all tragedies, but I have a feeling that if you suddenly had an 80% drop in gun related fatalities, those restrictions would be pretty easy to swallow.

You know what the "hoops" are that you need to jump through to get a firearm permit, in Canada? To get your "Possession and Acquisition License" you need to pass a two-day safety course, which also doubles as a hunting safety course. You have to try to fail, or act unsafely. If you try to fail, you deserve to not be given a firearm. You aren't responsible enough. If you act unsafely, you're unsafe with a firearm and the public safety is more important, so you don't get a firearm. Want to own a semi-automatic rifle? Take another day-course and you can then own those firearms. Want a prohibited weapon? Only way I'm aware of is to become a Police officer or Military personel... at which point you require them for your livelihood, and are given appropriate training to ensure you don't use them against the people you protect. [There are other legal ways as well, but they're quite rare]

That's it. That's the restriction. You have to give up a weekend, to prove you aren't a danger to yourself or others. So yeah, when our mass shooting fatalities are 1/15th, or 7% of the US per capita rate, I hope you can see how sickening it is to your Northern neighbour to see how little it would take to reduce the number and scale of tragedies. Do you need more than 5 rounds per magazine when hunting? I hope not. But if you have 20 rounds in a magazine, it's so sadly easy to go and kill a classroom full of children. There are simple, painless ways to reduce the fatalities. It may not happen in one generation, or two, but at some point things would improve substantially.