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The fluff of 40k borrows from many other works of sic-fi and fantasy as well as our own history, but what do you think are the most original concepts/ideas in the fluff of 40k?
Over Sized Pauldrons to sue anyone with similar Pauldrons.
The concept of using Latin/greek words such as Adeptus Astartes/Soritas, Astra Militarum / Tempestus, Ork, Daemon, Tau. Eldar, Necron, Skitarri etc... are unique enough to already be copyrighted.
gubbins boy wrote: The fluff of 40k borrows from many other works of sic-fi and fantasy as well as our own history, but what do you think are the most original concepts/ideas in the fluff of 40k?
Ah the eternal question of which is the most original....
IIRC there is one school of thought that nothing in modern literature is truly original and it all takes from historical writing or oral mythology.
As the whole metaplot is simply based off Paradise Lost, Moorcock, and the fall of the Roman Empire, there's not that much "original" stuff. However, what they have done is melded a whole lot of different themes into a coherent idea. Eldar are a great example, taking ideas from Japan and Tolkien.
Rak'gol are somewhat unique. I think it'd be cool if they fleshed them out more, but then we'd have to worry about them ruining what they add to them.
Irishpeacockz-Blackjack needs a pay raise for being the welcomer to the crusade
Palleus-Write a school essay about Kroot! Pride. Prejudice. And Cannibalsim.
While the various ingredients may not be original, 40k's take on Orks and the AdMech is pretty unique.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
2BlackJack1 wrote: Rak'gol are somewhat unique. I think it'd be cool if they fleshed them out more, but then we'd have to worry about them ruining what they add to them.
I had never heard of these until you post. Interesting to see all the different aliens that 40k has in its fluff.
I would say they seem more generic 8 legged space bugs with guns than anything really original? But maybe I have not seen all there is.
I would dare to say it's their version of the orks. They are probably the most complete and well developped version of the orc. The fact that they are plants, the way their culture works and how they think makes them incredibly simple, yet complex and well developped. Orcs in the fantasy genre have the bad tendency of being absolute token villains for nor special reason. They have no culture, no civilisation and very little motivation to explain their actions and behavior. 40K orks give an answer to it that allows them not just to fulfill their role as token villains, but to own it completly. This gives them their originality.
The fact that the rak'gol have an actual culture is what makes them come off as unique to me. They aren't just primal savages who go off of instincts, but are capable of using strategies, and actually have rites and promotions. IMO, saying they're just space bugs with guns doesn't really do them justice.
Irishpeacockz-Blackjack needs a pay raise for being the welcomer to the crusade
Palleus-Write a school essay about Kroot! Pride. Prejudice. And Cannibalsim.
epronovost wrote: I would dare to say it's their version of the orks. They are probably the most complete and well developped version of the orc. The fact that they are plants, the way their culture works and how they think makes them incredibly simple, yet complex and well developped. Orcs in the fantasy genre have the bad tendency of being absolute token villains for nor special reason. They have no culture, no civilisation and very little motivation to explain their actions and behavior. 40K orks give an answer to it that allows them not just to fulfill their role as token villains, but to own it completly. This gives them their originality.
I remember when the Orks used to sit the Grots down and tell them tales around the squig fire. Puffs on his squig gak pipe.
Yeagh we waznt alwayz bolter fodder. Wez usda stomp croz tha orkiverse.
Then the LOR movies happened. An now wez jus gerbils. A las gun you say, where, holds Orky claws, lets run into it
I would say the models are often really original, but the GW naming department tends to just borrow words from various sources- historical figures for space marines, latin for tyranids, disney for dark eldar, egypt for necrons etc. There are exceptions: how on earth did they come up with Ghazghkull mag uruk thraka, for instance?
Tailessine wrote: I would say the models are often really original, but the GW naming department tends to just borrow words from various sources- historical figures for space marines, latin for tyranids, disney for dark eldar, egypt for necrons etc. There are exceptions: how on earth did they come up with Ghazghkull mag uruk thraka, for instance?
Tailessine wrote: I would say the models are often really original, but the GW naming department tends to just borrow words from various sources- historical figures for space marines, latin for tyranids, disney for dark eldar, egypt for necrons etc. There are exceptions: how on earth did they come up with Ghazghkull mag uruk thraka, for instance?
The fall of the empire is combined with technological regression , the tech cult and the machine spirit is shameless stolen from Asimov - The foundation. (~1951)
It is later build on but its core is 100% the foundation.
A short summary of some "coincidences" WARNING ACTUAL SPOILERS
Spoiler:
In this book a 12.000 year old galactic empire is doomed to fall apart and enter 30.000 years of dark ages / war.
This results in technological regression. Most old high tech machines can only be crudely repaired but no longer be maintained in the long run and are impossible to produce on most planets.
A group of scientist did foresee this fall and decides to the knowledge hide and later start tech cult.
The cult recruits from other neighbouring planets, have a strict dogma, learn all their teaching on the central planet, wear red robes, worship the galactic spirit and use holy rituals to work with machines.
This book also contains officially sanctioned but not so trustworthy traders who have their own space ships and are on a mission to spread the faith by trade.
Sly Marbo was a pretty unique and original concept in 40ktbh.
Furyou Miko wrote: While the various ingredients may not be original, 40k's take on Orks and the AdMech is pretty unique.
Though Orks were started as apisstake of the 80's hooliganism, almost everything about them is unique. I especially love their currency!
AdMech, as mentioned, aren't quite as unique, but they bear less resemblance to pop culture than the rest.
epronovost wrote: I would dare to say it's their version of the orks. They are probably the most complete and well developped version of the orc. The fact that they are plants, the way their culture works and how they think makes them incredibly simple, yet complex and well developped. Orcs in the fantasy genre have the bad tendency of being absolute token villains for nor special reason. They have no culture, no civilisation and very little motivation to explain their actions and behavior. 40K orks give an answer to it that allows them not just to fulfill their role as token villains, but to own it completly. This gives them their originality.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
2BlackJack1 wrote: The fact that the rak'gol have an actual culture is what makes them come off as unique to me. They aren't just primal savages who go off of instincts, but are capable of using strategies, and actually have rites and promotions. IMO, saying they're just space bugs with guns doesn't really do them justice.
I am not sure how that makes them an original idea? or for that matter unique in the setting?
Much of the species covered off in 40k fluff have distinct cultures, use strategies and have rites and promotions; it doesn't mean they are either original nor unique.
The Tau seem pretty unique in concept if not in name.
Bipedal, ungulate, aquamarine-complected technophiles that exist without psychic presence in a universe where one or more races is entirely psychic. Their society is communal but also uses a caste system, they are tolerant and accepting in a universe that is generally xenophobic. They offer peace and open arms to other species, even allowing them to function as auxiliaries in the military. Their means of warfare (drones, ranged weaponry, battlesuits, air superiority) seek to conserve life in a universe where life is cheap. Their ruling caste is a mixture between royalty, religious leader and Jedi.
Earlier iterations have drawn aesthetic inspiration from Eastern iconography (Japan) due to their association with giant robots but at this point I don't see a lot of similarities any other fictional species. Which wouldn't be hard to believe since they didn't exist in any meaningful way until 3rd edition when 40k was evolving into its own grimdark mishmash IP out of the melting pot of mimicry and irony.
Proud supporter of
It is human nature to seek culpability in a time of tragedy. It is a sign of strength to cry out against fate, rather than to bow one's head and succumb.
-Gabriel Angelos
Ashiraya wrote: I am pretty sure your sarcasm detector needs replacing, Miko.
It's possible.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
God Emperor of Dune published quite some years before the first Rogue Trader game, so GW didn't seem to come up with that concept themselves either.
Indeed the most Iconic things about the IOM are 100% taken from Dune
Leto II and the great sand worm = IOM Emperor and the Golden Throne
Technology regression after the Butlerain Jihad = The regression from the fall from the Golden Age of Technology
Spice-Melange gives physical and mental psychic abilities and even cause mutation = Chaos warp is the power that feeds psychic abilities and can cause mutation
Sardaukar and Fremen = Space Marines
Bene Gesserit = Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition
Spacing Guild = Astropaths and Adeptus Mechanicus
Both have an elaborate assassin's guild that utilizes cybernetics, psykers/spice augments and forbidden technology.
many of the factions and even Space marine chapters of the imperium resemble the great houses of Dune
the list goes on and on
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God Emperor of Dune published quite some years before the first Rogue Trader game, so GW didn't seem to come up with that concept themselves either.
Indeed the most Iconic things about the IOM are 100% taken from Dune
I dare to challenge that. Some of it was most likely stolen from other sources.
while dune was a major inspiration source you are really discounting some of the other major books of that time.
The foundation was published in 1951 (Dune was publised in 1965)
-> Already mentioned above.
Starship troopers was published in 1959
-> Space marines with Mx power armour and drop pods could have come from this or perhaps even before this publication
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_marine
On top of that there is Lord of the rings -> Fantasy setting -> ported into space elves, space dwarves and space orks.
Alien series -> Tyranids
-----------------------------------------
New try to find something original
Has anyone ever encountered somthing like a servitor or kroot outside and prior to GW publications ?
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2016/01/27 15:54:04
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Indeed the most Iconic things about the IOM are 100% taken from Dune
I dare to challenge that. Some of it was most likely stolen from other sources.
while dune was a major inspiration source you are really discounting some of the other major books of that time.
I was only talking about the IOM, and never said Dune was the Exclusive source material for IOM, just the most Iconic things about it.
I'd say Starship Troopers is more Imperial Guard, but I'll agree that power armor may have a helping hand from Starship troopers. Although dune did have armor and personal force fields as well.
Fantasy and Nids don't enter into it but I agree with those except Nids is probably both Starship Troopers as well as a touch of Aliens.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/27 16:23:58
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Nomeny wrote: I think the relationship between psychic powers, the warp, the Emperor, Navigators, and so on is pretty original to 40k.
The Emperor as the beacon for warp travel is a pretty interesting facet (you can replace "warp" with "mélange" and get close to Dune, but the demons are real, so I think it's pretty new).
As mentioned, Orks, Harliquins, and Ad Mech are pretty novel.
While not exactly original concepts, I think that GW's porting of fairly generic space marine supersoldiers into a monastic setting, with wildly different cultures and tropes, is pretty novel. Lots of settings have space marines, but not a lot have distinct cultures of super soldiers. It's easy to write them off as "Vikings in space, Vampires in Space, roman legion in space, mongols in space, etc." but the way that different cultures and home planets shape Astarters, along with the Gene Seed, is pretty cool.
I was only talking about the IOM, and never said Dune was the Exclusive source material for IOM, just the most Iconic things about it.
Large themes of the Empire of man have already been featured in the foundation.
The tech regerssion, the tech cult, the rogue traders, the time line including the number ~40k and 30k of strife and darkness all of it.
The only thing it is missing is a god emperror the psykers and the warp
I'd say Starship Troopers is more Imperial Guard,
-> The movie yes. The book, hell no not even close. The book is SM all the way. They might even be more elite then the GW space marines.
Side not it does not include bioengineered troopers but free willing citizens.
While not exactly original concepts, I think that GW's porting of fairly generic space marine supersoldiers into a monastic setting, with wildly different cultures and tropes, is pretty novel. Lots of settings have space marines, but not a lot have distinct cultures of super soldiers. It's easy to write them off as "Vikings in space, Vampires in Space, roman legion in space, mongols in space, etc." but the way that different cultures and home planets shape Astarters, along with the Gene Seed, is pretty cool.
Nomeny wrote: I think the relationship between psychic powers, the warp, the Emperor, Navigators, and so on is pretty original to 40k.
Most defiantly not, but even though several ideas are taken from other sources GW did give it its own twist.
I just think is despicable how they used other sources and continue to sue and issue "Cease and Desist" orders on others if they get too close to their trademark.
Large themes of the Empire of man have already been featured in the Foundation.
I'll go with that, to be honest I never heard of it until now, I had to read Wiki so hopefully what I read was accurate. Still I would categorize IOM as a symbiosis of Foundation and Dune; there seems to be a lot more Dune than Foundation. But it is there for sure.
and it sounds like a horribly boring read.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/01/27 17:27:02
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Ack not at all. Let me just give you a few quotes out of Asimovs work.
About the time line
Spoiler:
A. Psychohistory, which can predict the fall, can make statements concerning the succeeding
dark ages. The Empire, gentlemen, as has just been said, has stood twelve thousand years.
The dark ages to come will endure not twelve, but thirty thousand years. A Second Empire will
rise, but between it and our civilization will be one thousand generations of suffering humanity.
We must fight that
About the technological regression
Spoiler:
"It amounts to a diseased attitude – a conditioned reflex that
shunts aside the independence of your minds whenever it is a question of opposing authority.
There seems no doubt ever in your minds that the Emperor is more powerful than you are, or
Hari Seldon wiser. And that's wrong, don't you see?"
For some reason, no one cared to answer him.
Hardin continued: "It isn't just you. It's the whole Galaxy. Pirenne heard Lord Dorwin's idea of
scientific research. Lord Dorwin thought the way to be a good archaeologist was to read all the
books on the subject – written by men who were dead for centuries. He thought that the way to
solve archaeological puzzles was to weigh the opposing authorities. And Pirenne listened and
made no objections. Don't you see that there's something wrong with that?"
Again the note of near-pleading in his voice. Again no answer.
He went on: "And you men and half of Terminus as well are just as bad. We sit here,
considering the Encyclopedia the all-in-all. We consider the greatest end of science. is the
classification of past data. It is important, but is there no further work to be done? We're
receding and forgetting, don't you see? Here in the Periphery they've lost nuclear power. In
Gamma Andromeda, a power plant has undergone meltdown because of poor repairs, and the
Chancellor of the Empire complains that nuclear technicians are scarce. And the solution? To
train new ones? Never! Instead they're to restrict nuclear power."
And for the third time: "Don't you see? It's Galaxywide. It's a worship of the past. It's a
deterioration – a stagnation!"
About the tech cult
Spoiler:
"Yes, but you were forced to surround these scientific gifts with the most outrageous mummery.
You've made half religion, half balderdash out of it. You've erected a hierarchy of priests and
complicated, meaningless ritual."
Hardin frowned. "What of that? I don't see that it has anything to do with the argument at all. I
started that way at first because the barbarians looked upon our science as a sort of magical
sorcery, and it was easiest to get them to accept it on that basis. The priesthood built itself and
if we help it along we are only following the line of least resistance. It is a minor matter."
"But these priests are in charge of the power plants. That is not a minor matter."
"True, but we have trained them. Their knowledge of their tools is purely empirical; and they
have a firm belief in the mummery that surrounds them."
"And if one pierces through the mummery, and has the genius to brush aside empiricism, what
is to prevent him from learning actual techniques, and selling out to the most satisfactory
bidder? What price our value to the kingdoms, then?"
"Little chance of that, Sermak. You are being superficial. The best men on the planets of the
kingdoms are sent here to the Foundation each year and educated into the priesthood. And the
best of these remain here as research students. If you think that those who are left, with
practically no knowledge of the elements of science, or worse, still, with the distorted
knowledge the priests receive, can penetrate at a bound to nuclear power, to electronics, to the
theory of the hyperwarp – you have a very romantic and very foolish idea of science. It takes
lifetimes of training and an excellent brain to get that far.
About their robes
Spoiler:
"And never recognized his own high priest?"
"Without my crimson robe?
About the machine/galactic spirit
Spoiler:
And after that we will ourselves be able to operate the power boxes of the temples and the
ships that fly without men and the holy food that cures cancer and all the rest? Verisof said only
those blessed with the Galactic Spirit could–"
Automatically Appended Next Post: There are even more similarities but you should read them for yourself
It is actually a quite good book. Asimov is one of the best syfi writers there ever was.
They also made it into multiple audio books, some are quite good it will take you approx ~ 8-10 hours depending on the version.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/27 17:37:57
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