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Warhammer 40k doesn't feature very many truly original ideas, but they did combine pre-existing concepts in interesting ways.

At some point if you steal enough from other sources it becomes unique. Plagiarism becomes research.

Squigs?

Sentient Space Fungus

Servo-skulls

 Bottle wrote:
Servo-skulls

Good suggestion! Probably even more original than squigs! How exactly are servoskulls made?

nareik wrote:

 Bottle wrote:
Servo-skulls

Good suggestion! Probably even more original than squigs! How exactly are servoskulls made?

You take a skull, you shove an anti-grav harness into it, then you shove a camera into its eye sockets.

Do we know when the first servo skull was mentioned by GW ?
Because they seem to really similar to the floating and talking skull familiars of 2nd edition dnd I am not sure when DnD first mentioned them but this might get close and there might be a common source.

On of the more famous ones was the talking skull in planescape torment.

I think the space marines them selves are quite unique... as a totality. I mean gene enhanced humans is not new of course, but the tech-spec of a marine is full of cool things (not sure which are completely original but:
- Fast clotting blood to save them bleeding out.
- Second heart
- Super enhance sight and hearing (I think they can even eat a part of an enemies brain and get an idea of their thoughts.....needs citation)
- Can't recall which organ, but one that allows them to stay awake for days / weeks
- Third lung (I think this helps with "toxic" air)
- Acid "spit sack"
- Stronger bones, plus a fussed solid-mass ribcage of bullet proof interlocking plates!
- They can go into a coma for years (apparently up to 10000 years! - pythos) and still function when they wake.
- Practically immortal (life-span wise)

I think there are more that I missed.

But then, there equipment is very cool... the noble bolter, I don't recall a similar weapon elsewhere.... effectively a cannon that fires mini rockets that has been turn into a giant assault rifle, so large/heavy no normal human could wield it.

And then there is the great diversity.... I mean.... they cover pretty much every type of warrior throughout history all under "one roof" (Romans - Utlramarines, Gladiators - World Eaters, Vikings - Space Wolfs, Knights - Dark Angles, Assasins/ninja - Raven Guard, Mongols - White Scars, etc... and they are just some of the main stream chapters) ... that is pretty unique in itself.

nareik wrote:
Squigs?

Squigs.. Not sure about those.

I own a old ork book where Squigz are just orkoid lower creatures and looked nothing like the current versions. I bought this book recently but it was published in 1991
And I have seen them the current form for the first time in the Teddy Ruxpin cartoon. I loved this show when I was a kid in (published in 1987)

I am not sure who made the original version. Since Teddy Ruxpin clearly took a lot from other Fantasy sources but it seems to me that GW wasn't the first to think of those typical squigs we all know.

Originality? In 40k?

There is none. It is all drawn from other sci-fi and fantasy sources. Some might even say that, currently, GW has engaged in self-parody.

Not sure but could it be that their grim dark sauce they like to pour all over all their stolen 40k stuff is actually their own ?

oldzoggy wrote:Do we know when the first servo skull was mentioned by GW ?
Because they seem to really similar to the floating and talking skull familiars of 2nd edition dnd I am not sure when DnD first mentioned them but this might get close and there might be a common source.

On of the more famous ones was the talking skull in planescape torment.

Um... yes... "familiars"..

Those are Demi-liches, and they are one of the most powerful undead types in the entire game.

Demi leeches forgot about those. But no I did not mean to reference those horrors. :S brr they still give my party nightmares.

I was referencing thing like these but more generic.
http://torment.wikia.com/wiki/Morte


There where more floating critter power lv skulls who gave advise in planescape.I might just find what I am looking for If I digg a bit deeper in my old books.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Got it they where called mimir. They where common in sigil, you could buy them as minor magic items they where floating skull like constructs you could ask questions at and followed you like an ion stone.
They where actually a pretty large part of the setting and featured on page 4 of the player guide.

Some pictures







Automatically Appended Next Post:
And there is this
http://mimir.net/main.shtml

The idea that beyond the veil of reality beings of uncomprehensible magnitude try to worm their way into our reality. Oh wait Lovecraft

Fimir were interesting as were Skaven, don't know if there were mention of those creatures before. Oh and the original RT space marine rocket launcher.

The thing is.... rare is the actual original idea. If we look at music for example, no-one is produce new and original notes or chords... or even chord sequences, but as a totality is quite easy to make an original piece of music. Same in books.... generally words and sentences are all going to have been done before, but the whole book can be original.

It does annoy me a little when "lovecraft" is always pointed to in sci-fy as being the "inventor" of every horror... I mean he just took non-original basic shapes, heads, tentacles, eyes, etc... and made cool stuff with them. It's very hard to "invent" a completely new looking monster or concept. I bet there are previous references that lovecraft used to get/help his ideas.

But, if 40k was just a copy of somthing else, then none of us would be here. I think space marines and the whole world of 40k is very rich and unique (i.e. I can't think of another game / story-world like it) - like a finished book/song, but its constituent parts (words/chords) are of course not unique. I mean its a bit like saying.... "they totally copied humans by having humans in it, they didn't even bother to change their name!"

My thought would be is 40k unique? I think "yes" because I can't find something that I want to replace it with : )

bolter_fodder wrote:

I think space marines and the whole world of 40k is very rich and unique (i.e. I can't think of another game / story-world like it) - like a finished book/song, but its constituent parts (words/chords) are of course not unique. I mean its a bit like saying.... "they totally copied humans by having humans in it, they didn't even bother to change their name!"

There is a difference between
-using your stolen parts in a unique way => GW does this. I love their universe of clogged up grim dark stolen stuff.
&
- Inventing your own stuff. This is what we here want to know. What are the things that GW invented themselves.
This on itself is an interesting thing to know.


An other point is that gw tries to hide it and claims ownership all those stolen parts.
They even tried to sue a guy for using the word space marine :\ See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_marine

But, if 40k was just a copy of somthing else, then none of us would be here.

I guess am here because of that
I loved wfb since it was a great game taht had dino's and knights fighting each other loved it.
Got really into the Dark omen game. Wfb was kinda that game but on the table so I kept playing it and started loving it more.
A large part of my brain still thinks that the rules used in dark omen rules used should be the rules of a good table top game.
They changed the rules so much so that my entire army was void and the game was noting like Dark omen any more.
Decided that that was stupid but that I liked the hobby so switched to something else that was still like the thing I was doing.
So I started an 40k army.

So I guess the " just a copy of something else" factor is really to blame for me being here :_P

 oldzoggy wrote:

nareik wrote:
Squigs?

Squigs.. Not sure about those.

I own a old ork book where Squigz are just orkoid lower creatures and looked nothing like the current versions. I bought this book recently but it was published in 1991
And I have seen them the current form for the first time in the Teddy Ruxpin cartoon. I loved this show when I was a kid in (published in 1987)

I am not sure who made the original version. Since Teddy Ruxpin clearly took a lot from other Fantasy sources but it seems to me that GW wasn't the first to think of those typical squigs we all know.

wow that looks exactly like a squig (model) I had as a kid. colours and all. I suppose they were just a big head on legs back then.

Nothing new under the evil sun!

Gw has actually provided lots of inspiration to other fictional universes. Just look at Starcraft or Halo for instance.

What I've yet to see in other fictional works would be the following. Some of these are bound to appear in other works of fiction but so far I've yet to come across them:

Astronomican. <--Everything about this. A thousand souls sent to deaht to power a huge navigational device? Pretty original.

Fear the witch. <--The whole idea that in the far future of technological marvels burning witches is a justifiable thing.

The warp. <--Sci-fi is no stranger to alternate dimensions, nor deamons, nor the idea that time/space work diffrently in other planes of existence. However the idea that the Imperium is reliant on an incredibly unstable and frankly terrifying realm instead of just having a "light speed" or "space jump" is pretty original as far as I'm aware. Also the fact that you don't go faster but time/space works diffrent is not really original but pretty cool.

The Imperial war machine <-- The fact that in the far future of 40.000 years in the future humanity is pretty much the most warlike species there is. Honestly, when was the last time you read about humans not acknowledging aliens in any way and just eradicate them. We're pretty much the bad guys, 'cept for everyone that's worse.

Eldar Society <-- spend a few hundred years doing one thing and only one thing untill you move on to the next or litterally lose your mind.

The Imperial war machine <-- The fact that in the far future of 40.000 years in the future humanity is pretty much the most warlike species there is. Honestly, when was the last time you read about humans not acknowledging aliens in any way and just eradicate them. We're pretty much the bad guys, 'cept for everyone that's worse.

The last time I read about this

Starship troopers (1959)
Enders game (1985)
Hyperion (1989) (and the later books)




Automatically Appended Next Post:
The warp

I would love to go deeper into that.
There is
-The event horizon but that will most likely be post GW.
- Hyperion also post GW I think.

Do we know when GW formulated the warp for the first time, for we might be onto something ?

Nerak wrote:
Astronomican. <--Everything about this. A thousand souls sent to deaht to power a huge navigational device? Pretty original.


Eldar Society <-- spend a few hundred years doing one thing and only one thing untill you move on to the next or litterally lose your mind.

hmmmm, I would give you the first one I think.

The second I think calling it Eldar Society is stretching it a little but the whole elder focus on a single aspect of life thingy, yeah I would go with that.

Id like to think that GW 40k has the original concept of sending concepts to extreames like few others (if anyone) does.

Take Orks. Most if not all Orks (spelled Orcs in practically all other versions) are "war like" in some way. Either barbaric, honor bound, mindless or intelligent, there seems to be an orc for every occasion but they are almost always associated with warriors and battle in some way.

40k Orks go to the extreame. They are not just "war like", they live and breath war and battle through every breath, every thought, flowing through all of their veins and arteries. Every aspect of Ork culture and everything is battle, fighting and war.... EVERYTHING. I can't think of anything an Ork does that somewhere doesn't involve beating the snot out of someone or something (or shooting it, or chopping it, or running it over, etc) or leads to killing of some sort. Im sure there is something somewhere that doesn't involve fighting, but I can't think of it.

The concepts they mash together are not original sure, (in the end, everything is a rip off of SOMETHING regardless or what it is anymore). But the extremes that GW put their concepts into is original in itself.

So far, (at least that I can think off without extensive research), there is nothing like the Orks, the Space Marines, Chaos and all its aspects, Imperial Guard, and so on. The sheer extreme end of the spectrum and over the top nature that 40k lives in makes it unique.

 Engine of War wrote:
Id like to think that GW 40k has the original concept of sending concepts to extreames like few others (if anyone) does.

At one point, it was "they go to 11" British parody: very dry. Over time being over the top stopped being sold with a wink, and just became grimdark for the sake of Grim Dark.

I think Servoskulls are different enough. They are souls trapped inside a skull with no jawbone that have a simplistic intellect and can be trained to do a singular task (as far as I am aware).

How about chainswords?

The word "pysker"?

Purity seals?

I'll try and think of some others :-)

It's mainly in the mundane and miscellaneous items of the 40k world where I see the most originality. Looking forward to finding all of the above idea existing in the some random RPG sourcebook from the 70s :-p

 Bottle wrote:
The word "pysker"?

I can't say for sure right now, but If I'm not mistaken they got psyker (or at least the inspiration for the word) from Judge Dredd, where a "psychic gangster" is not an uncommon sight due to mutations.

True original concepts in GW's universes are close to nil. The fimir were one of their first attempts, and when that didn't work out (mostly because their background didn't fit too well when the company started aiming for younger customers in the 90s, remember kids that mass murder and brutal killing is ok but sex is very very very wrong) they just didn't bother trying again.

oldzoggy wrote:

Do we know when GW formulated the warp for the first time, for we might be onto something ?

The Warp is straight out of Moorcock's Eternal Champion stories.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:


Fimir were interesting as were Skaven, don't know if there were mention of those creatures before.

The Fimir were based on creatures from Irish mythology, known as Fomorians or sometimes Fomor.

7 books apparently.

Foundation
Foundation and Empire
Second Foundation
Foundation's edge
Foundation and Earth
Prelude to foundation
Forward to foundation

I read the first 4 in high school (Edge was released around then). I've only just become aware of the later ones - I've added them to the "to be read pile".

 Furyou Miko wrote:

oldzoggy wrote:

Do we know when GW formulated the warp for the first time, for we might be onto something ?

The Warp is straight out of Moorcock's Eternal Champion stories.

^ This.

As is the use of the Eight-Rayed Star to symbolize Chaos. The idea of Chaos Gifts, Chaos Mutations, Artifacts, and even specific, oft-quoted lines can be traced back to Moorcock. The use of souls as a source of power and a currency, the rituals and magic, all that sort of stuff is all Michael Moorcock when it comes to Chaos.

I'm going to agree with earlier posters and say the biology of the Ork race, and more generally the way their biology and culture perfectly explain them as omnipresent antagonists.

Literally nothing else anyone has said in this thread (from AdMech to Chaos, everything in this thread) is drawn from recognizable sources.

Sentient space fungus that create their own ecosystem wherever they go, including built in food source and slave caste, so that they have no reason to exist except to fight? I haven't seen anything like that anywhere. (And so much the better that it's mashed up with a soccer hooligan parody).