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 Psienesis wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

oldzoggy wrote:

Do we know when GW formulated the warp for the first time, for we might be onto something ?

The Warp is straight out of Moorcock's Eternal Champion stories.

^ This.

As is the use of the Eight-Rayed Star to symbolize Chaos. The idea of Chaos Gifts, Chaos Mutations, Artifacts, and even specific, oft-quoted lines can be traced back to Moorcock. The use of souls as a source of power and a currency, the rituals and magic, all that sort of stuff is all Michael Moorcock when it comes to Chaos.

Thx for clearing that up for me always wanted to know where that star came from




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

Literally nothing else anyone has said in this thread (from AdMech to Chaos, everything in this thread) is drawn from recognizable sources.

lol, you have some really good writers to read up to.

An alien race as the good guys of the setting clearly isn't original.

So, not the Tau.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
An alien race as the good guys of the setting clearly isn't original.

So, not the Tau.

The Tau aren't the "good guys" of the setting, so no, not the Tau.

I agree with the other posts above on the Orks being the most original. I'd also say the Eldar and Dark Eldar of the setting are also very unique interpretations of elves in space.

oldzoggy wrote:

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

Literally nothing else anyone has said in this thread (from AdMech to Chaos, everything in this thread) is drawn from recognizable sources.

lol, you have some really good writers to read up to.

The rest of Cal's post makes it seem like he meant 'anything' rather than 'nothing', I think that was a typo, lol.

EngulfedObject wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
An alien race as the good guys of the setting clearly isn't original.

So, not the Tau.

The Tau aren't the "good guys" of the setting, so no, not the Tau.

I agree with the other posts above on the Orks being the most original. I'd also say the Eldar and Dark Eldar of the setting are also very unique interpretations of elves in space.

Don't bother, Norton thinks he's a Water Caste diplomat.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Don't bother, Norton thinks he's a Water Caste diplomat.

Indeed

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

Literally nothing else anyone has said in this thread (from AdMech to Chaos, everything in this thread) is drawn from recognizable sources.

I don't think you mean it but you are saying all the other ideas are original?

To my knowledge, Games Workshop pioneered greenskinned orcs.

 Quarterdime wrote:
To my knowledge, Games Workshop pioneered greenskinned orcs.

Dungeons & Dragons, 1977.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Quarterdime wrote:
To my knowledge, Games Workshop pioneered greenskinned orcs.

Dungeons & Dragons, 1977.

Alright. How 'bout Chainswords?

 Quarterdime wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Quarterdime wrote:
To my knowledge, Games Workshop pioneered greenskinned orcs.

Dungeons & Dragons, 1977.

Alright. How 'bout Chainswords?

Evil Dead.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Quarterdime wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Quarterdime wrote:
To my knowledge, Games Workshop pioneered greenskinned orcs.

Dungeons & Dragons, 1977.

Alright. How 'bout Chainswords?

Evil Dead.

Not really. Its a chainsaw as a weapon and... prosthetic hand weapon?

But its not a "Chainsaw sword" in the same concept. Sure its used AS a sword but its not a Sword Chainsaw hybrid. But at best its a technicality.

 Engine of War wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Quarterdime wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Quarterdime wrote:
To my knowledge, Games Workshop pioneered greenskinned orcs.

Dungeons & Dragons, 1977.

Alright. How 'bout Chainswords?

Evil Dead.

Not really. Its a chainsaw as a weapon and... prosthetic hand weapon?

But its not a "Chainsaw sword" in the same concept. Sure its used AS a sword but its not a Sword Chainsaw hybrid. But at best its a technicality.

Like a contemporary chain fist, rather.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Quarterdime wrote:
To my knowledge, Games Workshop pioneered greenskinned orcs.

Dungeons & Dragons, 1977.

Are DnD orcs green? They're usually depicted as black or blue in artwork.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Quarterdime wrote:
To my knowledge, Games Workshop pioneered greenskinned orcs.

Dungeons & Dragons, 1977.

Are DnD orcs green? They're usually depicted as black or blue in artwork.

I know that at least the orcs depicted in the 5e MM are gray and blue. Been too long since I've seen the older manuals.

To my knowledge JRR Tolkien created orcs and they since spread across multiple settings in true orc fashion.

It's not the creation of orcs that's being discussed, its the colour of their skin.

That said, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, orcs go back long, long before Tolkein;

1605 J. Sylvester tr. G. de S. Du Bartas Deuine Weekes & Wks. ii. i. 337 Insatiate Orque, that euen at one repast, Almost all creatures in the World would waste.
1656 S. Holland Don Zara i. i. 6 Who at one stroke didst pare away three heads from off the shoulders of an Orke, begotten by an Incubus.
1854 Putnam's Monthly Mag. Oct. 380/1 The elves and the nickers, the orcs and the giants.
1865 C. Kingsley Hereward I. i. 71 But beyond, things unspeakable—dragons, giants, orcs, [etc.].
1937 J. R. R. Tolkien Hobbit vii. 149 The slopes of the Grey Mountains..are simply stiff with goblins, hobgoblins, and orcs of the worst description.
1974 R. Helms Tolkien's World iv. 80 The Orcs are covered with hair, in part to represent their sexual voraciousness and animality.
1989 GM Nov. 56 (advt.) Choose to play an Elf, Dwarf, Orc or Human.
1992 City Limits 2 July 22/4 The heroes are the orcs, usually (and quite rightly) considered to be the scum of fantasy society.

The Taurox.

Because no designer in real life would put a gun BEHIND the exit door.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
It's not the creation of orcs that's being discussed, its the colour of their skin.

That said, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, orcs go back long, long before Tolkein;

1605 J. Sylvester tr. G. de S. Du Bartas Deuine Weekes & Wks. ii. i. 337 Insatiate Orque, that euen at one repast, Almost all creatures in the World would waste.
1656 S. Holland Don Zara i. i. 6 Who at one stroke didst pare away three heads from off the shoulders of an Orke, begotten by an Incubus.
1854 Putnam's Monthly Mag. Oct. 380/1 The elves and the nickers, the orcs and the giants.
1865 C. Kingsley Hereward I. i. 71 But beyond, things unspeakable—dragons, giants, orcs, [etc.].
1937 J. R. R. Tolkien Hobbit vii. 149 The slopes of the Grey Mountains..are simply stiff with goblins, hobgoblins, and orcs of the worst description.
1974 R. Helms Tolkien's World iv. 80 The Orcs are covered with hair, in part to represent their sexual voraciousness and animality.
1989 GM Nov. 56 (advt.) Choose to play an Elf, Dwarf, Orc or Human.
1992 City Limits 2 July 22/4 The heroes are the orcs, usually (and quite rightly) considered to be the scum of fantasy society.

Oh wow. That's some nice stuff. I'll have to read those.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
It's not the creation of orcs that's being discussed, its the colour of their skin.

That said, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, orcs go back long, long before Tolkein;

I'll say. Try some 1600 years old in fact. 'Orc' in it's original sense was the Old English (Anglo-Saxon) word meaning Demon. The below is two lines from the English epic 'Beowulf', written circa 700BC:

þanon untydras ealle onwocon - Thence all evil broods were born,
eotenas ond ylfe ond orcneas - ogres and elves and evil spirits

Note the last line 'orcneas' - this is the word that Orc is held to have derived from, 'evil spirits'.

Hence, as a professor of Old English and an avid linguistic, that's where it's likelyTolkien got it from.

I have to agree that whilst Orks are not unique, the direction GW took them is quite singular.

Good catch. I didn't think to check the etymology section (don't worry, eventually I'll get bored of having access to the oed ^^

orc, n.2
View as: Outline |Full entryKeywords: On |OffQuotations: Show all |Hide all
Pronunciation: Brit. ork#_gb_1.mp3 /ɔːk/ , U.S. ork#_us_1.mp3 /ɔ(ə)rk/
Forms: 16 orke, 16 orque, 18– orc, 19– ork.
Frequency (in current use):
Etymology: Probably a borrowing from Italian. Etymons: Italian orco.
Probably < Italian orco man-eating giant (see ogre n.).
The word is unlikely to be a survival of Old English orc demon (probably directly < classical Latin Orcus ); in Old English also as the first element in the compound (plural) orcnēas evil spirits, walking corpses (see need n.1); compare:
eOE Corpus Gloss. (1890) 86/2 Orcus, orc,..ðyrs, heldiobul.
OE Beowulf 112 Þanon untydras ealle onwocon, eotenas ond ylfe ond orcneas, swylce gigantas, þa wið Gode wunnon.

The word was revived in the 20th cent. by J. R. R. Tolkien (compare quot. 1937 at main sense), probably partly after Old English orc; compare:
1954 J. R. R. Tolkien Let. 25 Apr. (1995) 177 Orcs (the word is as far as I am concerned actually derived from Old English orc ‘demon’, but only because of its phonetic suitability).
(Show Less)
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A devouring monster; an ogre; spec. a member of an imaginary race of subhuman creatures, small and human-like in form but having ogreish features and warlike, malevolent characters.
Popularized by the novels of J. R. R. Tolkien (1892–1973) and now used chiefly in fantasy novels and games.

Actually, I hadn't even opened your link, (I'm just a bit of an amateur historian) But yeah - everything there is spot on - it's an actual word our ancestors would probably have spoken as commonly as we say boogeyman.

EDIT: @Furyou Miko - Just noted the use of 'Orcus' in the info you put up. I believe 'Orcus' is latin for Underworld or was a minor god of the underworld. Chances are, the Saxons nicked it from the Romans when the Legion's left Great Britain or Germany.

Indeed, neither Gygax nor Tolkein "invented" the idea of Orcs/Orks. They (and elves, gnomes, goblins, hobgoblins, bugbears, svirfneblin, duregar...) are items of folklore going back centuries.

Robin5t wrote:

Crispy78 wrote:

Tailessine wrote:
. There are exceptions: how on earth did they come up with Ghazghkull mag uruk thraka, for instance?

Margaret Thatcher

They had to tone her down a bit, though.

sorry I know this is from a few pages ago but can we please get a photoshop of this

back on topic though, I'm not sure there is much originality in the 40k universe, at least not anything I can think of, it's more of a conglomeration of bits of influential sci-fi slightly adjusted to fit in with the rest, but then lets be honest 40k has never been known for it's originality.

 Glasdir wrote:
back on topic though, I'm not sure there is much originality in the 40k universe, at least not anything I can think of, it's more of a conglomeration of bits of influential sci-fi slightly adjusted to fit in with the rest, but then lets be honest 40k has never been known for it's originality.

Perhaps how the setting successfully merges the different ideas it borrows from is its originality? Orks and Eldar/Dark Eldar are good examples of how borrowed concepts can become rather unique after adapting them to the setting.

BDSM torture-elves were introduced as the Drow in D&D long before 40k was a thing. Raiding the surface for slaves and loot, living in a separate world (the Underdark) that defied rational comprehension, excelling in lightning-fast strikes and raids but lacking in "staying power" for drawn-out battles (in the case of Drow, an allergy to sunlight, or bright lights at all).

The Orks as we know them in 40K are geek commentary on British soccer hooligans. They didn't create that personality, they just borrowed it from the people in their neighborhood. They were the dude-bros of the 80s.

The Dark Eldar since 5th ed are much more fleshed out than just BDSM torture-elves in space, as is evident from this series. Btw, if you're familiar with WoD's Changeling: The Lost, the Dark Eldar are thematically much closer to the True Fae than to Drow.



The Orks have similarly matured since their RT days, and are no longer just comic relief. The days of Ork cheerleaders are long over.

Nah, Orks are still Orks. One need only look at their Codex to see that they're a joke. Nothing that wasn't already present in Drow has been added to Dark Eldar. The major difference between the two is the trappings of their respective settings. Drow are fantasy, Dark Eldar are sci-fi.

 Psienesis wrote:
Nah, Orks are still Orks. One need only look at their Codex to see that they're a joke. Nothing that wasn't already present in Drow has been added to Dark Eldar. The major difference between the two is the trappings of their respective settings. Drow are fantasy, Dark Eldar are sci-fi.

Well I disagree. The Orks are an essential part of the setting. If you haven't been keeping up and choose to limit yourself to certain factions, that's hardly the fault of the setting.

The 5th ed codex brought a lot of changes to the DE. With 3rd ed you could legitimately say they're just WHFB Dark Elves in space or Drow in space, but they've changed since then. Also, there's a fundamental difference on why they inflict suffering - drow and dark elves don't do it to sustain themselves and to evade Slaanesh, they do it because they enjoy it, and for no bigger reason. So while the Dark Eldar may claim they're free to do as they like, they really have no choice.

And fantasy, especially DnD orcs are very different from 40k Orks. For one, they don't reproduce through spores and have females. Squigs and grots also grow from the same spores 40k Orks grow from so there's something weirder going on. And they don't have the psychic gestalt consciousness that Orks have when they gather in large numbers. They don't grow larger from combat and have average to short life-spans in most fantasy settings. And they're mostly not very green and rather hairy. They're also not genetically engineered to fight and worship chaotic deities. There's no concept of the Waaagh! etc.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

The 5th ed codex brought a lot of changes to the DE. With 3rd ed you could legitimately say they're just WHFB Dark Elves in space or Drow in space, but they've changed since then. Also, there's a fundamental difference on why they inflict suffering - drow and dark elves don't do it to sustain themselves and to evade Slaanesh, they do it because they enjoy it, and for no bigger reason. So while the Dark Eldar may claim they're free to do as they like, they really have no choice.

Dark Eldar do it because they enjoy it too - the fact that it can sustain them and they think (erroneously) that it will protect them from Slaanesh is just a bonus. They're just as capable of using Soulstones and living according to the Paths as the Craftworld Eldar are.

Remember, its the Haemonculus' cloning/ressurection technology that keeps the Dark Eldar out of the hands of Slaanesh in the end, not the torture porn.

 EngulfedObject wrote:
The Orks are an essential part of the setting.

No, they are not.