What is a daemon prince good for?

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**hippyjr**

One of my friends plays chaos. He showed up with a DP, excited as hell about it, and then I proceeded to shoot it out of the sky.
apparently he and another friend played a game where it underperformed.

Now I'm no chaos player, but for his sake what on earth are they supposed to do?

**AncientSkarbrand**

He can't treat it like it's unkillable. They need to be very carefully positioned on the battlefield to live long while still doing damage and helping your game. A daemon pprince can be an incredible unit, but if you expect it to win games for you by shoving it in your opponent's face, you're using it wrong.

The daemon prince needs to separate and control the opponents units and opportunities to damage him. He needs to make sure he is on the giving end and not the receiving end of damage as much as possible.

You have to kit them out for them to matter. Daemon princes are best with loads of upgrades if you can manage to play them well. They can be an unforgiving unit, but if he treats them like they're fragile they can perform amazingly well. They're also better in the chaos daemons codex, and also better if they aren't khorne.

They're one of the best candidates for psychic support. They can do a ton of work on their own with psychic buffs and rewards.

My first tournament I took a khorne dp on foot with armour and rewards. Every single game he was promptly killed with little effort from my opponent. Long story short, they cannot be on foot and perform well, and khorne dp's are a waste of time outside KDK. Never skimp on a daemon prince, he becomes wasted points.

**blackmage**

the problem with chaos DP is it s undeperforming respect to demons DP, no rewards and weaker psy powers, some demons DP are almost unkillable for some opponents with a good mix of rewards and psy power, i m not using chaos DP beside Be'lakor

**Roknar**

The khorne prince in csm can still be good. The axe of blind fury makes it more susceptible to taking damage, but oh my god does it lay on the hurt. It almost single-handedly killed my opponents army in one game, but I was really really lucky too. It was in combat every turn from turn 1 until it died.

As for OP, they can do a few things, but you can think of them as glass cannons. They can be amazing but once exposed or grounded they're basically dead unless they happen to be invisible.

**JimOnMars**

OP, were you playing with your Tau? There aren't too many non-deathstar units that can go against you and survive. Other armies have more trouble hitting DPs.

**AncientSkarbrand**

Is there much benefit to a khorne prince with AoBF over a nurgle one with black mace? I will admit that yes they can still be good, I just think you personally get more out of the other god's daemon princes, who don't depend on being in combat quite as much to do anything.

I'm no expert on the csm dex though.

**Crispy78**

I was unimpressed when my regular opponent fielded Grey Knights for the first time. Turn one, teleported a dreadknight from the other end of the battlefield and IDed my DP with his Gatling Psilencer jobbie. :(

**jade_angel**

Personally I don't care for Khorne DPs except in pure-Khorne themed lists, since they can't be psykers, and a DP really wants to be a psyker for the potential buffs. They're cheaper that way, I suppose.

The Black Mace is beastly in the hands of an MC, however, since that nullifies its one weakness (AP4), so generally I'd favor the Nurgle/BM prince over the Khorne/AoBF one. YMMV, of course - I've only played Chaos very infrequently on an army-swap basis.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Which codex?

In the CSM one, you have only one real build: Nurgle, ML3, Black Mace, and you roll on Biomancy.
If you want Khorne...might as well get a Bloodthirster. If you want Slaanesh, might as well get a Keep Of Secrets. If you want Tzeentch, might as well get a Lord Of Change.

Even then, Great Unclean Ones look nice (though I don't know anything about Daemons outside random glances at Battlescribe; I don't plan to use the army).

**MechaEmperor7000**

Have him try out Be'Lakor.

**Roknar**

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Is there much benefit to a khorne prince with AoBF over a nurgle one with black mace? I will admit that yes they can still be good, I just think you personally get more out of the other god's daemon princes, who don't depend on being in combat quite as much to do anything.

I'm no expert on the csm dex though.

Not really. The typical blackmace nurgle prince can be similarly lethal without sacrificing the 9 WS and getting a 2+ cover save to boot. The khorne prince only gets another attack and is much better against vehicles, but looses 1 WS, making him WS 8 instead of 9. Which is kind of a big deal. . However, he IS S8/9, which means he can instant kill unlike the black mace. So the Khorne prince is better against multiwound units and dreads if he can make it into combat. Then again, with the amount of AP2 wounds the mace generates, the difference isn't as big as you'd think. Not to mention the aoe toughness test thing.

But yea, until you make him a psyker, there's not really a huge difference between khorne and the other gods. Other than being ever so slightly cheaper I guess. Like 5 points or so.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Which codex?

In the CSM one, you have only one real build: Nurgle, ML3, Black Mace, and you roll on Biomancy.
If you want Khorne...might as well get a Bloodthirster. If you want Slaanesh, might as well get a Keep Of Secrets. If you want Tzeentch, might as well get a Lord Of Change.

Even then, Great Unclean Ones look nice (though I don't know anything about Daemons outside random glances at Battlescribe; I don't plan to use the army).

Except that none of those are available in the current csm dex. Though yes, of the 4 options in the csm dex, nurgle is the best.

**blackmage**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Have him try out Be'Lakor.

for me Be'lakor is almost an auto include i many lists, maybe just Tau can handle him easily the rest if you move carefully could have troubles.

**Slaphead**

If I had daemons, Be'lakor would be the first thing down on my list. He seems to have some great rules/stats and I can see an invisible daemon prince really messing up opponents. Plus his model looks really nice!

**hippyjr**

JimOnMars wrote:
OP, were you playing with your Tau? There aren't too many non-deathstar units that can go against you and survive. Other armies have more trouble hitting DPs.

Why yes, yes I was

The thing is that a 10 man squad of fire warriors killed it the second it came within range. That's what confused me so much.
He did just try and shove it down my throat though (the rest of the army was footslogging and the DP few straight at me) so I guess that's where he went wrong

No idea what he did in the other game though...

**jade_angel**

You kinda got lucky, if it was still swooping. If you didn't hit it until it came down (in preparation to assault, because hey, that's what DPs do well), then I'm not terribly surprised. The DP is only T5, so pulse rifles are as effective at wounding it as bolters are at wounding marines, and mostly it gets the same save as Marines do (if you buy Warpforged Armor, and who doesn't?)

Generally speaking, you can't expect a DP to tank a ton of shooting - it has to rely on flanking, isolating units, and staying in the air until the last minute.

**SpacePup1987**

A Jinking shrouded Nurgle DP with a 2+ cover save is always a pain, especially when they have ml3 with Fnp.. I think Daemon codex DP is much better.

**Slayer-Fan123**

It basically is outside the Black Mace, because DAMN it is a nasty weapon.

**Intercessor**

Black Legion Daemon Princes can take an upgrade that makes them eternal warrior, worth a look. There's a nasty daemon weapon in that supplement too.

**GoonBandito**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Which codex?

In the CSM one, you have only one real build: Nurgle, ML3, Black Mace, and you roll on Biomancy.
If you want Khorne...might as well get a Bloodthirster. If you want Slaanesh, might as well get a Keep Of Secrets. If you want Tzeentch, might as well get a Lord Of Change.

Even then, Great Unclean Ones look nice (though I don't know anything about Daemons outside random glances at Battlescribe; I don't plan to use the army).

I'd agree with a Bloodthirster over a Khorne Demon Prince, but less so on the Lord of Change and definitely less so on the Keeper of Secrets. Lords of Change are really good, don't get me wrong, but they can only roll on Divination, Malefic or Change - a Demon Prince gets to also roll on Biomancy and Telepathy, which might make a big difference in how you want to use the unit. Keeper of Secrets' on the other hand are in the god-awful position of being a Melee unit that can only move 6". A Slaanesh Prince can at least buy Wings so it can move 12" a turn, plus Jink, which makes a big difference in getting them into combat.

**gwarsh41**

Slaphead wrote:
If I had daemons, Be'lakor would be the first thing down on my list. He seems to have some great rules/stats and I can see an invisible daemon prince really messing up opponents. Plus his model looks really nice!

Be'Lakor is the Daemon answer to everything and anything. At my local, he is on the same level of fear as knight titans, if not more feared.

**Cilithan**

In the following list the Daemon Prince is good for carying the Grimnoire and offering acces to the Biomancy discipline:

CAD
Sorcerer, ML3, Bike, SF, MB
10 Cultists
10 Cultists
5 Spawn, MoN
Heldrake
Kytan
AD
Fateweaver
10 Pink Horrors
DPoT, ML3, WA/DF, ER
1850

I don't use Daemon Princes often. As others I mostly prefer Be'lakor or LoC's, but once every now and then you conjure up a list where those options are less desireable because of limits to FOC's, prohibiting pointscosts etc.

In lists like the one above a Daemon Prince adds to MTO (multiple threat overload), adds to flexibility through spells and abilities and has superior movement. He isnt an invinsible sledgehammer by any measure, but can be very usefull and offer great synergy.

Cilithan

**Torus**

I am not a CSM player just reporting on a friend's success with them

In a local league that we were in my mate had a pretty even win/loss record, when it reached the knockout stages he decided to run a couple of flying Nurgle princes for his 2+ jink saves, one had the Black mace if I remember right. Anyway considering the relative power level of CSM he hit well above his weight knocking out a very talented DE player and the front running Necron player who was using a Decurion. Now of course this is anecdotal, but I've seen them working and they can be very scary but as always mileage varies with these kind of units.

OFC you were using Tau and quite frankly I don’t know how to even play against Tau as Eldar never mind CSM. Either way Daemon Princes can do work, but when it comes to Tau…when I find out how to get past the Skyfire, interceptor, ignores cover, ignores LOS and increased BS shooting I’ll try and share what I’ve learned but until then… I don’t know*.

*I’m honestly not trying to be factious here; I genuinely believe we as a community can find a way to play against Tau using armies that rely on cover saves…personally I’m not there yet.

**ZergSmasher**

I have a friend who runs several variations of a list with several DPs in it. One time that I faced him he took 2 Daemons CADs and a Black Legion allies detachment. In the Black Legion detachment, the HQ was a DP of Nurgle with that relic that gives him the nova power (can't remember what it's called). He also had like 3 Slaanesh DPs from the Daemons detachments and min Nurglings as troops. The Slaanesh DPs all had the lash thing (whatever its called). He got Iron Arm on all of them, making that lash very painful. Needless to say my Khorne Daemonkin with CSM allies didn't stand a chance even with Be'lakor (my list was weak). Be'lakor and my D-thirster died on turn 1 to psychic shrieks (he rolled a 17 against Be'lakor, and an 18 against the D-thirster). It just went downhill from there.

To answer the original question: DPs are good with certain loadouts, but definitely better from the Daemons book rather than CSM.

**HuskyWarhammer**

Good use for a Daemon Prince:

Take a Khorne Daemonkin detachment with a Chaos Lord wielding Kor'lath. Use blood tithe to upgrade him to a prince, so he is "removed as a casualty" and summons a bloodthirster. The DP keeps Kor'lath (per the rules about keeping equipment/artificats), so when he dies you get a *second* bloodthirster.

Double bloodthirster! What does it mean?!

**MechaEmperor7000**

The KDK detachment also has a Warpforged Armor that grants Eternal Warrior, which is much needed on Daemon Princes so they don't die to a railgun blast. Which the Tau have.

**JimOnMars**

SpacePup1987 wrote:
A Jinking shrouded Nurgle DP with a 2+ cover save is always a pain, especially when they have ml3 with Fnp.. I think Daemon codex DP is much better.

It was Tau.

Jinking? Shrouded? Flying?

Ignored.

**peirceg**

ive had some success with belakor and a tzeentch prince with the black mace. 2+ rerollable cover is always pretty good.

**SicSemperTyrannis**

JimOnMars wrote:
SpacePup1987 wrote:
A Jinking shrouded Nurgle DP with a 2+ cover save is always a pain, especially when they have ml3 with Fnp.. I think Daemon codex DP is much better.

It was Tau.

Jinking? Shrouded? Flying?

Ignored.

You forgot some of their weapons also don´t need LOS, some missile turret things. Can´t remeber the name. Thats what killed my Daemon Prince the last game.

**peirceg**

Smart missile system - or the tau improved hunter killer missile.

**jade_angel**

The seeker missile only ignores LOS if fired with a Markerlight. If you fire it HKM-style, it still needs LOS and doesn't ignore cover, either. It's just an HKM with less range (still 72", but that's less than infinite). This means that they need a Markerlight hit, and Markerlights still need LOS.