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Of course picture is blurry as hell.

Also who would even think of taking a formation with 4 Princes? That's like more than half your army, would really need good rules to be worthwhile.

Requizen wrote:
Of course picture is blurry as hell.

Also who would even think of taking a formation with 4 Princes? That's like more than half your army, would really need good rules to be worthwhile.

And it's likely to be a prince of each god as well..

I'll take it if the bonus is worth it, as I'm sure is the case for almost any formation.

I play larger games so it doesn't bother me at all, I'm looking forward to seeing all the formations, and getting some big games in if the decurion style detachment is good.

1850 is just a standard, those dp's don't have to be half your army, just bring more points if you wanna run the formation. In any case, I don't expect gw to make formations that fit perfectly into a standard amount of points. It caps the size of games you cater to as a company and therefore caps the content you can reasonably sell gamers. A push towards bigger games with these formations is, in my opinion, both smart in a business sense and actively happening.

Oh sure, if they make all upgrades on the Princes free and what not it'll be great, but it'll have to be really good to make it worth.

Bigger isn't better imo. It's just more to keep track of and makes the power creep really visible in stuff like LoWs.

I agree, I'm just saying that perhaps gw either has no idea 1850 is a standard in the community or doesn't care and would rather push for more sales than cater to gamers who adhere to the standard and don't play larger games.

All upgrades on princes for free would be wayy insane. You can fit 12 fully upgraded dp's in a 1850 list with 230 pts left over. I think people might be upset about that haha. I know I would run 8 with support elements if that was the command benefit. My group would get tired of it quickly though I'm sure.

The dp may not be Uber powerful right now, but it's not far away from being great, at least in the CD codex. I feel like a command benefit or two could breathe life into them quite well. I feel like if the upgrades were free, you would suddenly see 4 dp's in most daemon armies, it would only be 540 pts.

I think some of the upgrades should be free though. But it'll probably be something silly like a 4++ and -1 to fear tests.

If they allow them to join eachother, it will be taken for the buffability. 4 invisible endurance princes for the price of 1? Yes please.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The blurb in the wd says "4 daemon princes who go to war against the space wolves in the story" perhaps they themselves are unique individual princes that get different rules entirely.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
I agree, I'm just saying that perhaps gw either has no idea 1850 is a standard in the community or doesn't care and would rather push for more sales than cater to gamers who adhere to the standard and don't play larger games.

All upgrades on princes for free would be wayy insane. You can fit 12 fully upgraded dp's in a 1850 list with 230 pts left over. I think people might be upset about that haha. I know I would run 8 with support elements if that was the command benefit. My group would get tired of it quickly though I'm sure.

The dp may not be Uber powerful right now, but it's not far away from being great, at least in the CD codex. I feel like a command benefit or two could breathe life into them quite well. I feel like if the upgrades were free, you would suddenly see 4 dp's in most daemon armies, it would only be 540 pts.

I think some of the upgrades should be free though. But it'll probably be something silly like a 4++ and -1 to fear tests.

If they allow them to join eachother, it will be taken for the buffability. 4 invisible endurance princes for the price of 1? Yes please.

I'm sorry but this is simply plain out wrong... Even going for Daemon of Khorne, with Wings + Armour + 50pts of Gifts, a Prince is clocking in at 270pts - 12 of those is over 3200pts!
Simply put, the Daemon Prince is currently as criminally over costed as the Wraithknight is criminally under costed... No one in the game is afraid of a T5/W4 platform that will easily be running 230+pts in order to be even remotely usable.

A Daemon Prince formation would literally have to give you "free Psyker Mastery levels & Gifts" in order to just make them viable. Sadly, what we're probably going to get is something utterly stupid such as "Must take 1 Prince per God & re-roll DI Tests."

Princes of all stripes will continue to be utter garbage until GW wakes up and realises that 145pts base is easily about 50pts minimum too much for such a flimsy platform... Hell, god damned Chapter Masters are beefier nowadays than an immortal champion who's attained the ultimate reward Chaos has to offer! A freaking snot-nosed mortal routinely spanks a supposed demi-god.


Judging by the scans, it's confirmed that the new Daemon lores are simply the same 4 asstastic powers from the codex + 3 new powers... Tzeentch's Firestorm is easily the most useless power in the entire game, (and that's saying something!), and yet, no changes to help make it not 1000% suck.

Suffice it to say, there's nothing shown so far that leads me to feel like we should be getting our hopes up. While granted the worst that can happen is that this "update" offers us nothing really and thus, we stay relatively the same, it also means that we're still likely a long ways off from having any of our glaring issues actually looked at and potentially resolved.

What is wrong about my post? I was saying if a fully upgraded daemon prince got all its upgrades for free, the leaves it at its base cost of 135. 4 of those is 540. I personally think that's a bit OP. You're essentially saving 800+ points because of it. I agree that they're over costed now, quite badly. They die far too easy and pay wayy too many points for the privilege.

12 fully upgraded dp's that didn't have to pay for their upgrades would be 1620 pts.

Your opinion of their power may be different than mine, but I don't see what I said that was "just plain wrong". I get work out of them but I won't fool myself into thinking they're an incredibly powerful unit.

Perhaps I was wrong about their base cost.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
What is wrong about my post? I was saying if a fully upgraded daemon prince got all its upgrades for free, the leaves it at its base cost of 135. 4 of those is 540. I personally think that's a bit OP. You're essentially saving 800+ points because of it. I agree that they're over costed now, quite badly. They die far too easy and pay wayy too many points for the privilege.

12 fully upgraded dp's that didn't have to pay for their upgrades would be 1620 pts.

Your opinion of their power may be different than mine, but I don't see what I said that was "just plain wrong"

My bad. I took it as currently 12 fully upgraded DP's = less than 1850. (stupid sleep deprived brain!)

Still, even with everything free it would just shift the Prince into finally usable territory. It's really quite amazing how much stuff out there simply demolishes him with relatively little effort... But then, imho, every single one of our MC's needs a serious overhaul! (ie: a LoC is a better beatstick than a freaking muscle-on-muscle rage-child Bloodthirster, simply because he can go all kung fu with his stick)

And the Ad Mech War Convocation has set this presidence, right?

Not unheard of and if they want to sell those $75 daemon prince models, the rules should be great!

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
And the Ad Mech War Convocation has set this presidence, right?

Not unheard of and if they want to sell those $75 daemon prince models, the rules should be great!

War Convo and Battle Company are the big offenders. I think some Eldar formations get some free stuff but not as bad (Guardians get some extra guns or the platform? That formation still kinda sucks compared to the Jetbike one).

Ugh two weeks is way too long to wait. Gonna need them rumors and gakky cell phone pictures sooner rather than later

Requizen wrote:

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
And the Ad Mech War Convocation has set this presidence, right?

Not unheard of and if they want to sell those $75 daemon prince models, the rules should be great!

War Convo and Battle Company are the big offenders. I think some Eldar formations get some free stuff but not as bad (Guardians get some extra guns or the platform? That formation still kinda sucks compared to the Jetbike one).

Ugh two weeks is way too long to wait. Gonna need them rumors and gakky cell phone pictures sooner rather than later

One obvious & very glaring oversight that hopefully (though almost certainly won't!) get fixed, is to allow Exalted Flamers taken as HQ's to still take 20pts worth of Gifts.

It's really stupid how if he's on his chariot, which NEVER wants to actually be in combat, the Exalt can take 20pts of Gifts. Yet, just on his own, when you ideally want him to potentially mix it up, he suddenly can't get a thing?!

C'mon GW! Even you guys have to realise how completely asinine this situation is!

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
What is wrong about my post? I was saying if a fully upgraded daemon prince got all its upgrades for free, the leaves it at its base cost of 135. 4 of those is 540. I personally think that's a bit OP. You're essentially saving 800+ points because of it. I agree that they're over costed now, quite badly. They die far too easy and pay wayy too many points for the privilege.

12 fully upgraded dp's that didn't have to pay for their upgrades would be 1620 pts.

Your opinion of their power may be different than mine, but I don't see what I said that was "just plain wrong". I get work out of them but I won't fool myself into thinking they're an incredibly powerful unit.

Perhaps I was wrong about their base cost.

Daemons princes of 145 pts base. So you'd save 120-135 pts for: the daemon of rules, the 3+ save, wings and rewards to make them semi-survivable. A 120-135 pts discount isn't bad; its fantastic in fact. But I doubt they would allow free psychic mastery levels as well so you'd have to add those costs back in. So, maybe 220-235 pts for the psychic DP's.

Really, new/updated psy powers for Tzeench is worth more than every formation in the book, IMO.
My tzeenchians have been gatherng dust since 7th psy-rules.

Also -I would love to see the end of this campaign having SoB re-lauch come to Fenris and help the desperate SW out!

That would stir things up a bit.

It seems like they really just need to redefine Warpflame. If they update that special rule to not hand out FNP then those powers would be pretty decent.

They'd be good if you didn't have to blow a bunch of your Warp Pool on them instead of important things like Malefic, Invis, or the like. Psychic is supposed to be our shooting, but because it now shares a resource with all of the utility as well, it doesn't get used (or when it does, it's only one or two shots).

We need more incentive to use the dice instead of doing things. Making the powers better is a start, but it would be better to say things like "return Warp Charge per wound caused" or "can be cast on a 2+ no matter what", so we don't have to devote a precious amount of dice for a chance to get a power off.

As it stands, Witchfires are the worst power to get off. You have to roll for it (like all powers), but then deny (which, unlike Blessings or Summoning, they can get bonuses on), and then roll to hit (which we were never super good at) and save.

Witchfires got worse overall in this edition, and the fact that we got Summoning to blow our dice on instead basically means they're worthless unless you really need to kill that last Marine or have some extra WC left over.

Experiment 626 wrote:


Judging by the scans, it's confirmed that the new Daemon lores are simply the same 4 asstastic powers from the codex + 3 new powers... Tzeentch's Firestorm is easily the most useless power in the entire game, (and that's saying something!), and yet, no changes to help make it not 1000% suck.

Suffice it to say, there's nothing shown so far that leads me to feel like we should be getting our hopes up. While granted the worst that can happen is that this "update" offers us nothing really and thus, we stay relatively the same, it also means that we're still likely a long ways off from having any of our glaring issues actually looked at and potentially resolved.

Given that the existing powers all suck. The three new powers in each would have to be broken to balance the lore and make it worth rolling. They also have to switch the primaris powers to something actually useful as well. I mean the but the old 4th ed Pavane or Lash into the Excess lore and I still probably wouldn't roll the table. I'd Say the Psychic powers are the low hanging fruit since we have access to good main rule book lores anyway.

The real meat is in the Formation rules and bonuses, relics, and warlord traits. What I'd really like would either be access to Hit & Run again, or to be able to run and charge same turn. Or a formation with assault from deep strike. You never know with GW and formations we might get something reasonably good or ridiculousness like all daemons in the Formation have a +1 invulnerable save, or replace daemonic instability with Fearless.

Requizen wrote:
They'd be good if you didn't have to blow a bunch of your Warp Pool on them instead of important things like Malefic, Invis, or the like. Psychic is supposed to be our shooting, but because it now shares a resource with all of the utility as well, it doesn't get used (or when it does, it's only one or two shots).

We need more incentive to use the dice instead of doing things. Making the powers better is a start, but it would be better to say things like "return Warp Charge per wound caused" or "can be cast on a 2+ no matter what", so we don't have to devote a precious amount of dice for a chance to get a power off.

As it stands, Witchfires are the worst power to get off. You have to roll for it (like all powers), but then deny (which, unlike Blessings or Summoning, they can get bonuses on), and then roll to hit (which we were never super good at) and save.

Witchfires got worse overall in this edition, and the fact that we got Summoning to blow our dice on instead basically means they're worthless unless you really need to kill that last Marine or have some extra WC left over.

This makes sense to me. You can summon in extra units, but then the ones you deployed don't do much else. This gives a versatile but costly tool.

THE PROBLEM IS that there are other armies that make this kind of balancing a disadvantage, rather than being fair.

So what are the chances we lose Grimoire?

 Sersi wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:


Judging by the scans, it's confirmed that the new Daemon lores are simply the same 4 asstastic powers from the codex + 3 new powers... Tzeentch's Firestorm is easily the most useless power in the entire game, (and that's saying something!), and yet, no changes to help make it not 1000% suck.

Suffice it to say, there's nothing shown so far that leads me to feel like we should be getting our hopes up. While granted the worst that can happen is that this "update" offers us nothing really and thus, we stay relatively the same, it also means that we're still likely a long ways off from having any of our glaring issues actually looked at and potentially resolved.

Given that the existing powers all suck. The three new powers in each would have to be broken to balance the lore and make it worth rolling. They also have to switch the primaris powers to something actually useful as well. I mean the but the old 4th ed Pavane or Lash into the Excess lore and I still probably wouldn't roll the table. I'd Say the Psychic powers are the low hanging fruit since we have access to good main rule book lores anyway.

The real meat is in the Formation rules and bonuses, relics, and warlord traits. What I'd really like would either be access to Hit & Run again, or to be able to run and charge same turn. Or a formation with assault from deep strike. You never know with GW and formations we might get something reasonably good or ridiculousness like all daemons in the Formation have a +1 invulnerable save, or replace daemonic instability with Fearless.

I actually wouldn't be surprised in the least to see our Formations give nothing of the sort... Honestly, you'd of thought that something like the KDK's 'Khornes Bloodstorm' formation would have given Hit & Run back to the Raptors, or at least 'assault from Deep Strike' to the likes of the Warptalons, but nope - nothing. It's easily one of the worst formations in the entire game!

Horrors at this point literally need a special rule that allows them to always attempt to cast Flickering Fire, regardless of whether or not an attached IC, (ie: Tzherald w/locus), has attempted to cast the spell.
7th ed has effectively removed any damage potential from these poor guys. When I use mine, they're only role is basically to generate added WC's and eat bullets while squatting on objectives. Occasionally launching themselves into combat when absolutely needed. It's an utter travesty that my Horrors routinely kill more enemies in please don't bypass the language filter like this. Reds8n assaults than they do with their psychic powers, simply because it costs way too many resources to ever think of using Flickering Fire with them!
If/when I cast that spell nowadays, it's only ever with the BS4 Tzheralds, and even then, there's no way in hell to ever realistically fire off the 4D6 shot version, as it needs 7-8WC's to reliably go off. Those WC's can easily get me 2-3 more useful augments/hexes, or else summon a new unit.

My mono-Tzeentch army has effectively seen over half it's damage potential neutered by 7th. The only thing that'll save it from being a strictly non-competitive in any way type of army, is if GW is smart enough to fix Horrors through a good Tzeentch formation.

Sadly, I'd be surprised if Tzeentch even gets a formation that allows us to harness WC's on a 3+... I'm more willing to be we'll get nonsense such as a full unit of 9 Flamers getting to trade their individual templates for a single Hellstorm template attack, (a downgrade thanks to Warpflame), and Hit & Run on Screamers!

New pics of the Wulfen!

Via Scanner http://forum.spikeybits.com/showthread.php?29784-Readable-Space-Wolf-Rules

There is a ton of pictures!

Why is that one Wulfen recreating hamlet?

 buddha wrote:
Why is that one Wulfen recreating hamlet?

...well... it would be daft if two or more of them were doing it right ?

 buddha wrote:
Why is that one Wulfen recreating hamlet?

Alas poor Yarrick...

Lotsa wolf leaks... few daemon leaks.

 Grimskul wrote:

 buddha wrote:
Why is that one Wulfen recreating hamlet?

Alas poor Yarrick...

...we once had coffee together.


The better the picture quality gets, the less I like these guys. The original Wulfen weren't perfect, but they were still really good (IMHO) and I don't understand why they just didn't cast those in plastic with weapon options. Weird decision.

 buddha wrote:
Why is that one Wulfen recreating hamlet?

The arts program budget on Fenris was cut. Poor little champ is making the best of it.

Anyone know what the "Grimoire Campaign Edition" is that's up for preorder?

Requizen wrote:
Anyone know what the "Grimoire Campaign Edition" is that's up for preorder?

I believe it includes;
- all the new data cards
- some funky looking tokens?
- all the new formations + rumored Daemoncurion detachment
- a small booklet containing what basically sounds like an up-to-date version of just the rules/army list section of the codex (including the new relics & rumored unit updates)

Definitely not worth the asking price up here, which I believe is going to be over $200

Why the feth do they have to price those things so damn high? It's a joke. I want it but would never pay that price.

I wonder what my alternatives are, is there any other way to get the new rules without buying superfluous stuff?

Everything will be in the Warzone book, which is about half the price. The cards aren't included in that one, though.