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That Khorne weapon that hits on a 2+ in a challenge is nasty with the Warlord trait that allows a single hit at SD AP2. That's pretty cool I guess.

 Virules wrote:
Can we get a confirmation on how many soul grinders have to be in the formation? That will be a big tip-off as to how expensive it will be to try to run the decurion, since the soul grinder one can fulfill the auxiliary requirement.

Forgehost is 3 Soul Grinders, of any configuration.

Demonic Incursion needs 1 Core Choice and 1 Auxiliary. It can have up to 3 Command choices, and any number of additional Core or Auxiliary Choices.

Core
* Murderhorde,
* Warpflame Host
* Tallyband
* Flayertrope

Command
* Demon Lord (1 Bloodthirster of any type, Skarbrand, Fateweaver, Ku'gath Plaguefather, Lord of Change, Great Unclean One, Keeper of Secrets, Be'lakor or Demon Prince). This is not a standalone formation
* Infernal Tetrad

Auxiliary
* Gorethunder Battery
* Burning Skyhost
* Rotswarm
* Grand Cavalcade
* Forgehost
* Demon Flock (1 unit of Chaos Furies). Not a standalone formation.
* The Hunter of Khorne (Karanak). Not a standalone formation.

 GoonBandito wrote:
* Demon Flock (1 unit of Chaos Furies). Not a standalone formation.

Aaaand we're in business.

 GoonBandito wrote:

 Virules wrote:
Can we get a confirmation on how many soul grinders have to be in the formation? That will be a big tip-off as to how expensive it will be to try to run the decurion, since the soul grinder one can fulfill the auxiliary requirement.

Forgehost is 3 Soul Grinders, of any configuration.

Demonic Incursion needs 1 Core Choice and 1 Auxiliary. It can have up to 3 Command choices, and any number of additional Core or Auxiliary Choices.

Core
* Murderhorde,
* Warpflame Host
* Tallyband
* Flayertrope

Command
* Demon Lord (1 Bloodthirster of any type, Skarbrand, Fateweaver, Ku'gath Plaguefather, Lord of Change, Great Unclean One, Keeper of Secrets, Be'lakor or Demon Prince). This is not a standalone formation
* Infernal Tetrad

Auxiliary
* Gorethunder Battery
* Burning Skyhost
* Rotswarm
* Grand Cavalcade
* Forgehost
* Demon Flock (1 unit of Chaos Furies). Not a standalone formation.
* The Hunter of Khorne (Karanak). Not a standalone formation.

Awesome that i can take furies as auxiliary, but I just wish there was any way of getting an extra herald or two without taking a massive formation.

At 1500 points mono-tzeentch I am thinking of something like:
Fateweaver 300
Lord of change ML3 Exalted, Lesser Impossible robe 320
Herald (ML3, Paradox, disc, Exalted) 175
12 Horrors, icon, instrument 128
11 Horrors 99
11 Horrors 99
3 Flamers 63
3 Flamers 63
3 Flamers 63
Exalted Flamer 50
Exalted Flamer 50
Exalted Flamer 50
Furies 35

That gets me to exactly 1500 points.

Alternatively in a CAD could go for:

Fateweaver
Herald (ML3, Paradox, disc, locus) 170
Herald (ML3, Endless grimoire, disc) 160
Herald (ML3, Exalted, disc) 150
11 Horrors 99
11 Horrors 99
9 Screamers 225

1x Sorcerer, lvl 3 110
1x Rhino, Death of Kasyr Lutien 50
5x Chaos Space Marines 65

plus some upgrades gets me to almost 1500

Paradox + grimoire will let me bring a chariot a turn on 5 dice, or spit a D-weapon from a screamerstar, sorcerer and/or horrors summon quite reliably with the rhino. With the rest of the points (i have about 70 left i think i'll take something to protect the rhino, like an aegis defense line or something... This gives me 21+D6 dice to work with, so 16+D6 after herald casts, so technically i could bring in 3 squads each turn quite reliably, pretty cool IMO



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another cool thing is with the Oracular dais you can essentially autopass reserves on two units because it is worded as: you automatically pass a reserve roll and with an instrument of chaos when you pass a reserve roll you can bring another unit with that unit.

So horrors can bring flamers on turn two to do some roasting. Having two units coming in automatically turn 2 is actually very decent for 10 points (as it is also a disc of tzeentch dais is 35-25=10 points)

The run+charge WL trait means an almsot assured first-turn charge for a herald+seekers, since their average first turn movement is ~22'', and that's not even including the charge itself.

They'll have around a 26'' threat range at all times. Slap invisibility on those bad boys and you're good to go.

 trep99 wrote:
RAW question on new warlord traits for Nurgle:

1) Nurgle's acid ichor does not specify "unsaved wound", other powers usually do (even virulent touch and miasma of pestilence in this new table). If you save the wound do you still make the poison hit?

2) Impenetrable Hide: if you gain FNP later is it at +1, i.e. Endurance or locus of fenductity?

RAI is so obvious here it hurts.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The run+charge WL trait means an almsot assured first-turn charge for a herald+seekers, since their average first turn movement is ~22'', and that's not even including the charge itself.

They'll have around a 26'' threat range at all times. Slap invisibility on those bad boys and you're good to go.

Is there a way to guarantee a warlord trait for demons?

GoonBandito


So a unit of furies, or karanak take a place of auxiliar to make the decurion??????



And what happen with kairos? It has lord of unreality warlord trait, but that name isnt in the new warlord trait..

 Mymearan wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The run+charge WL trait means an almsot assured first-turn charge for a herald+seekers, since their average first turn movement is ~22'', and that's not even including the charge itself.

They'll have around a 26'' threat range at all times. Slap invisibility on those bad boys and you're good to go.

Is there a way to guarantee a warlord trait for demons?

No. You can at least get a reroll from using a CAD

Quick question for rules lawyers. Given the wording of the Tz core formation, could the exalted flamers be in burning chariots?

And for everyone else: would the formation be substantially better if they could?

Am I right in understanding that the formation benefit for the Grand Cavalcade is an additional 6 inches added on to their run move?

Does that mean Seekers from that formation can run D6 (with rerolls for fleet), +6 for being a Daemon of Slaanesh then an additional 6 inches for the formation bonus? So a total run move of 18 inches?

So if you have a herald is in the squad with the run then charge Warlord trait the Seeker squad could charge something up to 42 inches away?

Mushkin wrote:
Quick question for rules lawyers. Given the wording of the Tz core formation, could the exalted flamers be in burning chariots?

And for everyone else: would the formation be substantially better if they could?

Unfortunately no, as they are two completely separate entries... And exalted flamer can't take a chariot as an upgrade.

I suppose it would be better, but it would be more expensive, but i would gladly substitute exalted flamers for chariots... I think i will just use them as turrets, daemonic turrets that you can deepstrike and leave on the objectives to guard them daemonic tarantulas! and if they die they still continue holding the objective until it is cleansed by enemy unit

What would truly be better is if they just added 1 little thing to his profile: "Relentless"

hhhdan wrote:

Mushkin wrote:
Quick question for rules lawyers. Given the wording of the Tz core formation, could the exalted flamers be in burning chariots?

And for everyone else: would the formation be substantially better if they could?

Unfortunately no, as they are two completely separate entries... And exalted flamer can't take a chariot as an upgrade.

I suppose it would be better, but it would be more expensive, but i would gladly substitute exalted flamers for chariots... I think i will just use them as turrets, daemonic turrets that you can deepstrike and leave on the objectives to guard them daemonic tarantulas! and if they die they still continue holding the objective until it is cleansed by enemy unit

What would truly be better is if they just added 1 little thing to his profile: "Relentless"

Yeah, I know you're probably right lol And I don't want to push this too far. But just for fun...

An interesting complication is that, within the burning chariot profile in Codex: CD, there is a profile entry both for the flamer, and for the chariot. And there is a row for each under 'unit composition'. For the flamer, it says: 'unit composition: 1 Exalted Flamer'. Which may allow one to claim that, in buying burning chariots, you are also - thereby - buying a unit called an Exalted Flamer, and fulfilling the unit requirements of the formation.

Hmmm....

Mushkin wrote:

hhhdan wrote:

Mushkin wrote:
Quick question for rules lawyers. Given the wording of the Tz core formation, could the exalted flamers be in burning chariots?

And for everyone else: would the formation be substantially better if they could?

Unfortunately no, as they are two completely separate entries... And exalted flamer can't take a chariot as an upgrade.

I suppose it would be better, but it would be more expensive, but i would gladly substitute exalted flamers for chariots... I think i will just use them as turrets, daemonic turrets that you can deepstrike and leave on the objectives to guard them daemonic tarantulas! and if they die they still continue holding the objective until it is cleansed by enemy unit

What would truly be better is if they just added 1 little thing to his profile: "Relentless"

Yeah, I know you're probably right lol And I don't want to push this too far. But just for fun...

An interesting complication is that, within the burning chariot profile in Codex: CD, there is a profile entry both for the flamer, and for the chariot. And there is a row for each under 'unit composition'. For the flamer, it says: 'unit composition: 1 Exalted Flamer'. Which may allow one to claim that, in buying burning chariots, you are also - thereby - buying a unit called an Exalted Flamer, and fulfilling the unit requirements of the formation.

Hmmm....

i see the argument, but it is still refuting the fact that if they wanted to allow chariots they would say it under what units must be taken. If for example a formation would say it requires a leman russ, could it be argued that you can take a tank commander or pask instead of leman russ, as a part of the entry for the tank commander is a leman russ?

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=17357&d=1455171625

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=17358&d=1455171626

Very cheap decurion. CAD (screamstar + kairos) + decurion of tzeentch sound interesting..



Someone knows something about kairos?? change his warlord trait or something????

I'm really still not convinced that these command benefits are worth taking like 7 units of nurglings or a bunch of pink horrors or way too many bloodletters or daemonettes since I prefer to run multiple gods in my list. The core is super expensive. That being said, if you wanted to run mono god, I could see it. I feel like khorne and slaanesh would work best since horrors and nurglings really just want to sit on those objectives anyhow.

But those RELICS. Definitely need to revamp my list to include them. I mean wow. Do we have picture confirmation that they can be in a CAD? I believe Goon but I just want to see the wording for myself.

 King Pyrrhus wrote:
Am I right in understanding that the formation benefit for the Grand Cavalcade is an additional 6 inches added on to their run move?

Does that mean Seekers from that formation can run D6 (with rerolls for fleet), +6 for being a Daemon of Slaanesh then an additional 6 inches for the formation bonus? So a total run move of 18 inches?

So if you have a herald is in the squad with the run then charge Warlord trait the Seeker squad could charge something up to 42 inches away?

Potentially yes!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

zamerion wrote:
GoonBandito


So a unit of furies, or karanak take a place of auxiliar to make the decurion??????



And what happen with kairos? It has lord of unreality warlord trait, but that name isnt in the new warlord trait..

He has a fixed trait in his entry so it would stay the same as he did't get an updated Data slate or exception.

So whips of agony can't be taken by anything. As mentioned it is exalted aluress only and can be take only by a model that can buy an exalted reward. So not even her can take it since she can buy only lesser and greater. Cool. I think the nurgle instrument is the best relic in there.

So am I understanding the unending grimoire correctly? Basically if fateweaver is your warlord then the unending grimoire does absolutely nothing because he generates psychic powers on a bunch of a tables?

It's also worded so it seems that 'He" refers to the warlord not the model that has it. As in, this model over here takes the unending grimoire, the warlord only generates from change table, well now the warlord knows all the change powers. However it does nothing for the model holding it.

The rules "The Endless Grimoire: 35pts. If your Warlord generates all his powers from Change, he knows all the Change powers. Herald of Tzeentch only."

Is he referring to the holder or the warlord? I could see it going both ways honestly.

No change to the loci, is there?

 vercingatorix wrote:
So am I understanding the unending grimoire correctly? Basically if fateweaver is your warlord then the unending grimoire does absolutely nothing because he generates psychic powers on a bunch of a tables?

It's also worded so it seems that 'He" refers to the warlord not the model that has it. As in, this model over here takes the unending grimoire, the warlord only generates from change table, well now the warlord knows all the change powers. However it does nothing for the model holding it.

The rules "The Endless Grimoire: 35pts. If your Warlord generates all his powers from Change, he knows all the Change powers. Herald of Tzeentch only."

Is he referring to the holder or the warlord? I could see it going both ways honestly.

Fateweaver already knows all the of the Change discipline.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 vercingatorix wrote:
So am I understanding the unending grimoire correctly? Basically if fateweaver is your warlord then the unending grimoire does absolutely nothing because he generates psychic powers on a bunch of a tables?

It's also worded so it seems that 'He" refers to the warlord not the model that has it. As in, this model over here takes the unending grimoire, the warlord only generates from change table, well now the warlord knows all the change powers. However it does nothing for the model holding it.

The rules "The Endless Grimoire: 35pts. If your Warlord generates all his powers from Change, he knows all the Change powers. Herald of Tzeentch only."

Is he referring to the holder or the warlord? I could see it going both ways honestly.

Fateweaver already knows all the of the Change discipline.

So you think it is on the warlord and not the model? I didn't phrase it well but it's a two part question.

Does fateweaver nullify the unending grimoire?

Does the unending grimoire affect the model with the upgrade or the warlod?

From how I understand it, the Endless Grimoire is useful if and only if your Warlord is a ML1 Daemon Prince or Herald of Tzeentch. Otherwise, it's pointless. And even then, who wants a ML1 Psyker on the board at all? We're Daemons!

Everstave is looking pretty ok for a FMC Prince. Warpflame sucks, but S5 AP3 is good for roasting any cover-camping MEQs or worse, especially if you take it in conjunction with a Heldrake or something else that can chuck out AP3 Templates.

Oracular Dias still is confusing to me. "At the start of each of your turns..." would seem to indicate that it brings in a Reserve on Turn 1. "...automatically pass their reserve roll." makes it sound like it doesn't work on Turn 1. That'll need a serious ruling before it makes it worthwhile.

This may have been posted already, if so apologies, but do the new Hellforged Artefacts replace those from the main Chaos Daemons book? It seems odd to have two types of Hellforged Artefact; one that you swap an Exalted Reward for (i.e. The Grimoire, Portaglyph, Doomstone etc.) and one that you can just purchase for a flat fee. As a model can only have one Hellforged Artefact it would follow that, if the Artefact is purchsed, then that model could not swap Exalted Rewards for the main Hellforged Artefacts; such as swapping for the Grimoire, for instance? I also noticed that the 'Warp Tether' power appears as both a Warlord Trait and as an Exalted Reward. Unless the new book has changed the way Exalted Rewards work, this would seem to create some confusion. Any advice? Thanks.

It doesn't need a ruling. Reserve rolls only kick in from turn 2 onwards, at which point you can auto pass one per turn.

Too bad...I was hoping it was any reserves, and from turn 1 onward. Oh well.

From the wordings that have been leaked it looks like they way that the unending grimoire works is that you would have to take it on an ML1 herald and then make him your warlord. You could still bring fatey who already knows all of Change, just not as warlord. It's strange that the unending grimoire specifies the warlord though rather than the bearer or model.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
From the wordings that have been leaked it looks like they way that the unending grimoire works is that you would have to take it on an ML1 herald and then make him your warlord. You could still bring fatey who already knows all of Change, just not as warlord. It's strange that the unending grimoire specifies the warlord though rather than the bearer or model.

That's how I'm reading it as well. It's such a useful relic totally eviscerated by the small writing. :(

I wonder if we'll be able to choose on which table to roll for tzeentch table. Getting the D-shot or ignore cover would be nice but I think in most cases I'd prefer the reliability of getting the beam with a level 3 herald.

 Virules wrote:
It doesn't need a ruling. Reserve rolls only kick in from turn 2 onwards, at which point you can auto pass one per turn.

Too bad...I was hoping it was any reserves, and from turn 1 onward. Oh well.

That's really stupid considering you autopass on T4 anyway, so it's only useful for 2 turns.

Still, I guess it's only 10 points more than a regular disc, so you're at worst paying 10 points for one autopass, or if you fail one on T2 you get another free one on T3. That's... still not too bad, depending. If you're running CSM allied, that's 10 points to guarantee a Heldrake comes on T2, which is pretty ok.



A neat combo could be something like, Herald with the Oracular Disc, Tzeentch Prince with Everstave, CSM Prince with Burning Brand, and Heldrake. That's 3 Flyers with AP3 Flamers, guaranteed all to be on by T2 (unless you reserve the Princes, I suppose), one of which is Torrent, which basically guarantees blobs of dead models every turn. Could be pretty decent for a Flying Circus list, if you could manage the points.

 Virules wrote:
Can we get a confirmation on how many soul grinders have to be in the formation? That will be a big tip-off as to how expensive it will be to try to run the decurion, since the soul grinder one can fulfill the auxiliary requirement.

Easiest way to fulfill the Auxiliary requirement is a flock of Furies or Karanak.

If you use it in conjunction with instruments, you can bring the instrument unit in automatically and chain whatever reserve unit you actually wanted in as well, and if those two units are the same god you can place the second squad within 6" and not scatter if you also have an icon.

So potentially can be used to bring 4 units in by turn 3 with perfect accuracy on the second unit to deepstrike per turn.