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 TheAuldGrump wrote:
A big block of Sea Guard is worth building an army around - a shooty unit that can (mostly) hold its own in combat.

The downside is that they are a bit better as a defensive unit than as an attacking unit - a better anvil than hammer. (In an army that is rich in hammers... shooty hammers, but hammers.)

That said - it was fun running my zombie horde at them... there is a reason that I call my zombie horde 'The Tarpit'. They don't win their fight, but they don't lose it either - choose a nice, expensive unit to hurl the zeds at... and gum them up for the rest of the battle. A 130 pt. unit of zeds hitting a 280 pt. unit of Sea Guard is like throwing a pint of treacle into the workings of a Rolex watch....

The Auld Grump

Yes that's true with bane chant though they become better than spearmen in combat but they won't be wiping out units like a drakkon rider unit would etc.

Tarpits are the bane of any unit to be fair though. My GF has a legion of zombies for this very purpose. If you can't counter something use a tarpit, making an enemy useless is almost as good as countering it to death.


http://councilofwar.blogspot.co.nz/2016/02/unit-review-9-flamebearers.html

While im replying here are the flame bearers, so much to cover so as usual probably heaps I have missed. But it's a start.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
A big block of Sea Guard is worth building an army around - a shooty unit that can (mostly) hold its own in combat.

The downside is that they are a bit better as a defensive unit than as an attacking unit - a better anvil than hammer. (In an army that is rich in hammers... shooty hammers, but hammers.)

That said - it was fun running my zombie horde at them... there is a reason that I call my zombie horde 'The Tarpit'. They don't win their fight, but they don't lose it either - choose a nice, expensive unit to hurl the zeds at... and gum them up for the rest of the battle. A 130 pt. unit of zeds hitting a 280 pt. unit of Sea Guard is like throwing a pint of treacle into the workings of a Rolex watch....

The Auld Grump

Yes that's true with bane chant though they become better than spearmen in combat but they won't be wiping out units like a drakkon rider unit would etc.

Tarpits are the bane of any unit to be fair though. My GF has a legion of zombies for this very purpose. If you can't counter something use a tarpit, making an enemy useless is almost as good as countering it to death.


http://councilofwar.blogspot.co.nz/2016/02/unit-review-9-flamebearers.html

While im replying here are the flame bearers, so much to cover so as usual probably heaps I have missed. But it's a start.

Then there is the joy when two tarpits meet... (Ratkin slaves vs. zombie horde... the center of the battle just came to a complete halt. As far as I know, those two units are there to this day, neither giving ground....)

The Auld Grump - those two units became an obstacle for everyone - they might as well have been terrain.

I would love to see that battle. Zombies vs rat slaves.

I know what im doing on universal battle tomorrow... I will do a battle report on it.

2k points rat slaves with some characters vs zombies with some characters.

I played with the Flamebearers last night - before reading your article.

There are people that seem to think that all armies in Kings of War 'play the same', I can tell you that Abyssals play nothing like Undead, who play nothing like Dwarfs....

I had control over about a third of our army - 2 Troops of Flamebearers, 2 Efreets (we used the Abyssal Champion as an Efreet) - one with Wings of Honeymaze, the other with Boots of Levitation, two units of Gargoyles, and the Fiend.

My good lady had control over a Regiment of Molochs, several regiments of Lower Abyssals,a Horde of Lower Abyssals, two Regiments of Succubi, and an Abyssal Champion (using a Reaper mini), and a couple of Troops of Hellhounds. (Reaper Hellhounds.)

The scenario ended up being straight up Kill!, and that is what we did - at the end of the battle, I had one Efreet, one unit of Gargoyles, and a unit of Flamebearers that was barely standing (and by rights, should have lost Nerve and run, but the Dice Gods favored me both on Nerve and on Regen rolls). Megan had one unit of Lower Abyssals.... And that was all that was left of our army at the bottom of turn five.

The Ratkin, on the other hand, were gone from the table.

We met his Slave Legion in the middle of the table - but only after unloading an ungodly amount of fire on them - the Molochi and the Lower Abyssals met his front, while the Gargoyles hit a flank and the Fiend hit the rear - his mistake was leaving EXACTLY the amount of space that the Gargoyles needed. (He forgot that they are Fliers... not sure how - they are mostly wing....)

But most of the damage was dealt by the ranged combat in the turn previous to the crush.

I have been playing Undead and Dwarfs - I am not used to a mobile shooting force. (In the case of the Undead... shooting, what's that? While the Dwarfs have a very nice gunline... but are anvils, by nature.)

And without his Slave unit to hold his middle, his army was split in two - eking out our first win against the Ratkin.

The Gargoyles did better than I had expected (I gave one unit of them the Diadem of Dragon Kind... a nasty surprise - they joined in on the initial fire) , but the win belongs to the Efreet and the Flamebearers - the Ratkin withered under ranged fire - and that Piercing (1) makes a big difference. Hitting on 4+... was really nice.

Three turns spent either moving forward, or dealing with the Legion - the rest of his army folded in two turns.

But both sides did a lot of damage in two turns - his problem was that without his tarpit in the middle, he became very vulnerable to flanking. And that is where the Gargoyles with Fly and Nimble came into their own. Lower Abyssals or Succubi taking the fronts, Gargoyles, Hellhounds, or Succubi taking the flanks.

The Hellhounds were also really useful - almost as good as the Gargoyles in regards to flanking - and unlike the Gargoyles, they have Fury - which actually mattered for them - they were Wavered when they hit the Doomwheel in a counter charge (Death Engine - with Bloody Carnage - it managed to hit the poor Hellpuppies, and Wavered them).

Fury... is really pretty sweet against a squishy army like Ratkin, makes a big difference - normally Wavered is quickly followed by Routed (or at least Wavered again).

The Auld Grump

*EDIT* I don't know how much of the win came down to how we adapted to playing a new army better than how he adapted to playing against a new army.

http://vb.manticforum.com/forum/kings-of-war/kow-battle-reports/270068-1500-night-stalkers-vs-abyssals#post270068

I had this battle last night using my flame bearer set up.

Honestly I found it amazing, I found my gargoyles and wolves amazing too.

I think Abyssals strength is in their shooting to be honest.

Great to hear your thoughts and experience on it.


I know im late on 2 units but im really busy with games today but ill have 3 up before the day is out.

Damn, Auld. Once I'm done getting my League army sorted (and I haven't even touched on Halfling units yet), it looks like Abyssals will be my first actual Mantic army.

 Swastakowey wrote:
http://vb.manticforum.com/forum/kings-of-war/kow-battle-reports/270068-1500-night-stalkers-vs-abyssals#post270068

I had this battle last night using my flame bearer set up.

Honestly I found it amazing, I found my gargoyles and wolves amazing too.

I think Abyssals strength is in their shooting to be honest.

Great to hear your thoughts and experience on it.


I know im late on 2 units but im really busy with games today but ill have 3 up before the day is out.

I was amazed at how shooty an army it was - I had been thinking Abyssal=Chaos, I think - but... it really, really does not play like a Chaos army. It is a well rounded force, and a lot more flexible than I expected....

And those Flamebearers can bring a lot of hurt, while the Efreet with their fireballs definitely more than earned their keep - so much so that I think that an Efreet with Inspiring Talisman is a more worthwhile investment than an Abyssal Champion - he can hang back, be Inspiring, and blast the enemy at range.

The Auld Grump

Yea same here, at 1500 points I had 68 or so shots. Definitely a game changer for me too after initially assuming them a combat army.



http://councilofwar.blogspot.co.nz/2016/02/unit-review-10-villein-initiates.html

Finally got the next one up. Villein Initiates.

 Swastakowey wrote:
http://vb.manticforum.com/forum/kings-of-war/kow-battle-reports/270068-1500-night-stalkers-vs-abyssals#post270068

I had this battle last night using my flame bearer set up.

Honestly I found it amazing, I found my gargoyles and wolves amazing too.

I think Abyssals strength is in their shooting to be honest.

Great to hear your thoughts and experience on it.


I know im late on 2 units but im really busy with games today but ill have 3 up before the day is out.

Sadly, I am one of the many people that are unable to even see the Mantic forums.

The Auld Grump

Oh I see, I cleared my cache and cookies on my whole browser and it worked.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Oh I see, I cleared my cache and cookies on my whole browser and it worked.

Yeah, tried that - still no go. :(

Did it again today - still no good.

That update borked their forums but bad.

The Auld Grump

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Oh I see, I cleared my cache and cookies on my whole browser and it worked.

Yeah, tried that - still no go. :(

Did it again today - still no good.

That update borked their forums but bad.

The Auld Grump

Sorry, I actually had to delete my history to use the forum (sucked) so Book marked all my stuff and went from there. Browser still remembered my passwords etc afterwards

At my work computer simply clearing the cache was enough.

On an unrelated matter - I just got an e-mail from one of my opponents - she won't be able to make the games for a long, long while.

She was accepted as Medical Program Officer for a NGO on Lesvos, off the coast of Greece.

As excuses not to make a game go, I cannot think of a better!

I have known Molly since she was seven years old, and now she's all grown up.

The Auld Grump

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
On an unrelated matter - I just got an e-mail from one of my opponents - she won't be able to make the games for a long, long while.

She was accepted as Medical Program Officer for a NGO on Lesvos, off the coast of Greece.

As excuses not to make a game go, I cannot think of a better!

I have known Molly since she was seven years old, and now she's all grown up.

The Auld Grump

Oh... you are just gonna let an opponent walk off like that?

She is not successful until she wins at a wargame anyway. You are actively wasting her potential by letting her go.




(im joking dont worry).

Have the same problem as TheAuldGrump. Private Tab works though. Not the best option, but at least its something... :/

On topic: Looking forward to Zombie trolls, especially compared to Wights. Not really sure why Id use one over the other, apart from personal preference maybe...

 Tyr13 wrote:
Have the same problem as TheAuldGrump. Private Tab works though. Not the best option, but at least its something... :/

On topic: Looking forward to Zombie trolls, especially compared to Wights. Not really sure why Id use one over the other, apart from personal preference maybe...

Yea im having a long look at the Zombie trolls now in preparation.

A quick rundown is zombie trolls are cheaper, 1 better nerve.

Wights Extra crushing, extra defence.

Both have 2 upsides but really it ultimately comes down to the points investment and survivability I think. for a horde you are looking at 60 points more for the wights. Against most targets the wights have a similar damage output (both are likely to wound on 6s) but wights despite having less nerve are greatly helped by the defense 5.

Really the choice is "do I pay more to potentially live longer and get a bonus on some targets" or "do I save points and increase power elsewhere in the list while losing out on survivability".

You are right, it's really not a simple choice. No reason to simply take one over the other in all cases for the zombie trolls/wight choice.

Zombie Trolls are up:

http://councilofwar.blogspot.co.nz/2016/02/unit-review-11-zombie-trolls.html

Next are Tortured Souls - Abyssals

Just read your Tree Herder review, been thinking of taking one at 1500 points. Where do you find if he's a large infantry or monster? It just says Hero on the kow2 easy army.

Apologies, I don't have a rulebook yet

 Dendarien wrote:
Just read your Tree Herder review, been thinking of taking one at 1500 points. Where do you find if he's a large infantry or monster? It just says Hero on the kow2 easy army.

Apologies, I don't have a rulebook yet

He is a monster,

Generally you can tell from their stats what they are but yea so your certain 100% he is a monster.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Dendarien wrote:
Just read your Tree Herder review, been thinking of taking one at 1500 points. Where do you find if he's a large infantry or monster? It just says Hero on the kow2 easy army.

Apologies, I don't have a rulebook yet

He is a monster,

Generally you can tell from their stats what they are but yea so your certain 100% he is a monster.

Gotcha. So he is on a 50x50mm as a monster, whereas the shamblers are on 40x40mm for Large Infantry?

 Dendarien wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Dendarien wrote:
Just read your Tree Herder review, been thinking of taking one at 1500 points. Where do you find if he's a large infantry or monster? It just says Hero on the kow2 easy army.

Apologies, I don't have a rulebook yet

He is a monster,

Generally you can tell from their stats what they are but yea so your certain 100% he is a monster.

Gotcha. So he is on a 50x50mm as a monster, whereas the shamblers are on 40x40mm for Large Infantry?

Yes thats correct.

Ogre Shooters done

http://councilofwar.blogspot.co.nz/2016/02/unit-review-14-ogre-shooters.html

Dragon Kindred Lord Up Next

I'd be interested in seeing a review of Serpent Surfers... I mean Revenant Worm Riders, from the Empire of Dust list.

I think that I like the Empire of Dust better than the standard undead, so far....

The Auld Grump


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tyr13 wrote:
Have the same problem as TheAuldGrump. Private Tab works though. Not the best option, but at least its something... :/

On topic: Looking forward to Zombie trolls, especially compared to Wights. Not really sure why Id use one over the other, apart from personal preference maybe...

Thanks for that - unlike clearing cache, cookies, and history that actually worked.

The Auld Grump

Yes Empire of dust is better than Undead in some ways although both are capable. Undead have the Werewolves though which is hard to ignore since werewolves are so cool.

The amount of surge I have gotten into my Empire of dust lists are absurd. I think this is what makes them better overall.

After the Dragon Kindred lord i'll review the Worm Riders

Thanks!

And, agreed, EoD has Surge to spare, and a unit addon that boosts the Surge that is already there.

To me, the Worm Riders look like a variant for chariots, on paper at least.

But I will admit, it is the models from the old Tomb Kings set that makes them tempting.

The Auld Grump

Yea they are odd one since they have a mere speed of 6. May as well treat them as large infantry over cavalry.

Its something im gonna have a look into because they are certainly an odd ball unit.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Yea they are odd one since they have a mere speed of 6. May as well treat them as large infantry over cavalry.

Its something im gonna have a look into because they are certainly an odd ball unit.

And a huge unit footprint.

I think that you are right treating them as (very) large infantry is likely to get more out of them

Maybe heavy cavalry? A 5 defense is... decent but speed 6 is slow even for heavily armored cavalry and a 14 nerve makes them a bit fragile. But they are not all that expensive either, so....

I do like the models, though.

Looking forward to trying them, but I got hijacked by my good lady getting us an Abyssal army for Christmas (well, after Christmas, really, and she put the money into it through the Kickstarter months ago - planning this for a while, was my good lady).

So many armies in Kings of War that I want to try... The Brotherhood looks fun, too, and I already have a start on the Rhordians....

The Auld Grump

Done the Dragon kindred Lord

Worm riders for the Auld Grump up next

http://councilofwar.blogspot.co.nz/2016/02/unit-review-15-dragon-kindred-lord.html

Well, it is official - Tomb Kings are no more, and are on Last Chance from GW.

And on eBay, Tomb King armies are already being labeled 'Kings of War'...

Looks like I will need to order my Serpent Surfers soon. (And their leader Gnarlytoeheps, surfer with a thousand toes.... (Sorry, reference to Macho Women With Guns.))

Sad to see them go, glad that I can use them in Kings of War.

The Auld Grump

Yea I saw that this morning. I wonder what else will end up on that list in the coming months.

Pity really.