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This issue came up last game. There's a formation of vanguard vets that can charge out of deepstrike. It says that the unit can deepstrike and than emidiately charge. Also, they have an innate rule that the squad can re-roll charge range and don't loose attacks on multicharge. So, what he did is joined in Marneus Calgar with some sort of termi armor to deepstrike. Performed a deepstrike and charged in re-rolling distance and not loosing attack.

Was it correct? Is there anything preventing from doing it? IC don't share special rules with the rest of the squad as they're not part of this formation but if the special rule states it affects the squad?

If the rule is a part of the unit the IC is considered a part of the unit for all rules purposes.

If the rule effects the model or particular models then the IC would not gain the benefit unless those rules normally confer.

It's quite commonly accepted and agreed that if the rule benefits the unit, then a joined Independent Character would also benefit:

"While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."

The most common objection to the above is based on the following line regarding Independent Characters and special rules:

"Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit."

We know though that this doesn't matter, because Stubborn doesn't specify anything at all about Independent Characters, and tells us that it affects the unit:

"When a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule takes Morale checks or Pinning tests, they ignore any negative Leadership modifiers."

So we know that when a rule affects a unit it also affects joined Independent Characters.

Lance845 wrote:
If the rule is a part of the unit the IC is considered a part of the unit for all rules purposes.

If you read further, it says that IC are NOT affected by squad's special rules unless it's specified. Yes, they are affected by rules but not special rules...



That's why i'm a bit confused. It first says that arr rules and purposes. Than says no special rules.

It depends only on how the rules confer. As above with stubborn, the rule says any one model gives it to the unit. So the IC being a part of the unit gets it.

You would need to type out the exact rule to clarify anything else.

...On Target: "Vanguard veteran squad from this formation can charge on turn they arrive from deepstrike. In addition, they do not scatter...etc".

Who does Stubborn say the benefit applies to?

The unit.

Who do On Target and On Time say their benefits apply to?

The unit.

Main difference between special rule such as stubborn or outflank or other normal written special rule and on time lies there Normal special rule says "unit with this special rule can...." On time say "Vanguards from formation can...". That's why I think that you don't need this special rule on character ether on squad, because they are still vanguard veterans from formation


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And I have a question about reverse situation. If a IC joins non-formation unit, whole unit became non formation unit?

ahnob wrote:
And I have a question about reverse situation. If a IC joins non-formation unit, whole unit became non formation unit?

If an Independent Character from a formation joins a unit not from the same formation, he counts as part of the unit not from the same formation for all rules purposes.

Are unit and Squad same entities? I think so.

Vanguard squad + IC = vanguard squad? If so, than there's basically nothing preventing from charging indeed.

 koooaei wrote:

Lance845 wrote:
If the rule is a part of the unit the IC is considered a part of the unit for all rules purposes.

If you read further, it says that IC are NOT affected by squad's special rules unless it's specified. Yes, they are affected by rules but not special rules...

Spoiler:

While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules
purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.

Special Rules
When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.

That's why i'm a bit confused. It first says that they are for rules and purposes. Than says no special rules.

It does not say no special rules, it just says they do not confer. If a unit's datasheet states the unit has Relentless (such as a Terminator Squad), a Power-Armoured HQ does not have Relentless conferred upon him.

It also allows an out to work like Stubborn does. Stubborn does not state it confers, though, it just affects the unit. So a Blood Angels Captain joining a Dark Angels Tactical Squad does not gain Stubborn from the Tactical Squad, but his Leadership will not be negatively affected during Morale Checks or Pinning Tests since he is part of the unit.

If you continue reading the IC rules, it mentions that if an IC is in a unit affected by a special rule, such as Blind, than that effect continues on the IC even if the IC leaves the unit. Blind is a rule that if a certain test is failed, all models in the unit have their WS and BS reduced. So we see a rule affecting a unit also affects the IC, since they are considered "in the unit".

There are some who argue that if a unit is called by its name, it is not referencing anything but the original models of the unit. They have not supported this by any rule, though. And since having a rule affect a unit by name, is still affecting a unit, the IC is still included in the affect just as much as he is for Shooting, Stubborn, or Blind.


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 koooaei wrote:
Are unit and Squad same entities?

Vanguard squad + IC = vanguard squad?

Cause the rule says squad - not unit.

Look at the legend for the Datasheets and compare it to the Vanguard datasheet. Where it states "Vanguard Veteran Squad", what is that called by the datasheet legend?

I'm confused with different interpretations of all the same things.


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Charistoph wrote:

It does not say no special rules, it just says they do not confer. If a unit's datasheet states the unit has Relentless (such as a Terminator Squad), a Power-Armoured HQ does not have Relentless conferred upon him.

The problem i see here is that even if the IC in the unit doesn't have this rule, it still doesn't seem to prevent him from charging. As the other models still have this rule which states that the Squad can charge. And IC are part of the squad. Even if they don't have a rule to allow them to charge, they're still allowed to charge cause of how it's worded?..

 koooaei wrote:
I'm confused with different interpretations of all the same things.

Charistoph wrote:

It does not say no special rules, it just says they do not confer. If a unit's datasheet states the unit has Relentless (such as a Terminator Squad), a Power-Armoured HQ does not have Relentless conferred upon him.

The problem i see here is that even if the IC in the unit doesn't have this rule, it still doesn't seem to prevent him from charging. As the other models still have this rule which states that the Squad can charge. And IC are part of the squad. Even if they don't have a rule to allow them to charge, they're still allowed to charge cause of how it's worded?..

Correct. The rule states that this unit is allowed to Charge. The IC is part of this unit.

If it just stated, "models may Charge after arriving from Deep Strike Reserve", or if the unit is not mentioned at all, than the IC would be left out of being able to Charge like the rest of the unit unless he also had this rule.

In order for an IC to be included with a unit's special rule, either from its Datasheet, or its detachment, it must specifically mention as affecting the unit and not indicate that all models must have this rule to benefit.

Some homework for you. Review the rules for Relentless, Slow and Purposeful, Fleet, and Counter Attack and note the differences. Each one has different interactions on how an IC and a unit interact with these rules. See if you can identify what those interactions are and how they apply to the original question of this thread. I don't have any expectation of response or lack of response on this, I am just trying to help you grasp this interaction.

Charistoph wrote:

The rule states that this unit is allowed to Charge. The IC is part of this unit.

It states a "Unit Of Vanguard Veterans from this formation". I can't find anything to prove that a character joining Unit A = Unit A. It's just a unit. But not Unit A.

In other words, there's no rule to state that: Vanguard vet squad + IC = Vanguard vet squad.
The closest thing i can find in the brb is only enough to clarify that: Vanguard vet squad + IC = Squad.

A IC that joins a unit is considered a part of that unit for all rules purposes.

Does unit = squad? Seems so. Wow, this rule stuff is a pain. Too bad, they don't clarify what they write.

 koooaei wrote:
Does unit = squad?

From 'Models & Units' in the rulebook:

"Warriors tend to band together to fight in squads, teams, sections or similarly named groups – individuals do not normally go wandering off on their own on the battlefields of the 41st Millennium for obvious reasons! In Warhammer 40,000, we represent this by grouping models together into units."

From 'Datasheets' in Codex: Space Marines:

"4. Unit Name: Here you will find the name of the unit."

From the Vanguard Veteran Squad datasheet (the party that corresponds to 4. Unit Name as explained in the 'Datasheets' section) in Codex: Space Marines:

"VANGUARD VETERAN SQUAD"

Vanguard Veteran Squad is the name of the unit. If you were to point to the unit which the joined Independent Character counts as part of for all rules purposes, you would be pointing at the Vanguard Veteran Squad.

He counts as part of the Vanguard Veteran Squad for all rules purposes.

So, basically, the consensus is that Character doesn't have a rule to charge after the deepstrike because IC don't get rules from the squad. But he can charge because he's a unit that can charge.
So...he's an IC and thus doesn't get affected by the rule => can't but he's in a unit with a rule that allows to charge => can. What next? Roll d6?

"he's an IC and thus doesn't get affected by the rule" stopped mattering because he's in a unit with a rule that allows to charge

 koooaei wrote:
So, basically, the consensus is that Character doesn't have a rule to charge after the deepstrike because IC don't get rules from the squad. But he can charge because he's a unit that can charge.
So...he's an IC and thus doesn't get affected by the rule => can't but he's in a unit with a rule that allows to charge => can. What next? Roll d6?

Stop changing the rules

The rules state the rule is not conferred. It states nothing about not affecting or not benefiting the IC.

The IC benefits from the rule. The IC does not HAVE the rule

 koooaei wrote:
So, basically, the consensus is that Character doesn't have a rule to charge after the deepstrike because IC don't get rules from the squad. But he can charge because he's a unit that can charge.
So...he's an IC and thus doesn't get affected by the rule => can't but he's in a unit with a rule that allows to charge => can. What next? Roll d6?

Not quite. The IC does not get the rule, but the unit has a rule that grants an effect to the unit. This effect is given to the entire unit, of which the IC is a part of.

If there is a rule a unit has called Dirty Play that says a unit gets Muddy when it plays in the dirt until it gets clean, and the Muddy rule states a model gains Hatred while affected. IC without the Dirty Play rule is in a unit with Dirty Play that plays in the dirt. The IC would still have the Muddy rule applied to them if the unit plays in the dirt, and so would gain Hatred for the duration of the Dirty Play rule.

What about a deepstriking squad and an outflanking IC? If they all become a unit, than it still counts as deepstruck and can still charge? Ic stopped being a unit of his own and the resulting squad just counts as deepstruck?

 koooaei wrote:
What about a deepstriking squad and an outflanking IC? If they all become a unit, than it still counts as deepstruck and can still charge? Ic stopped being a unit of his own and the resulting squad just counts as deepstruck?

If an Outflanking IC joined the unit which just Deep Striked in, then no, it would not work unless the IC also has a rule allowing him to Charge when arriving from Outflank. The IC was not with the unit when the rule triggered its affect. And the IC would be denied the ability to Charge since it just Arrived from Reserves (and not Deep Strike Reserves).

Charistoph wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
What about a deepstriking squad and an outflanking IC? If they all become a unit, than it still counts as deepstruck and can still charge? Ic stopped being a unit of his own and the resulting squad just counts as deepstruck?

If an Outflanking IC joined the unit which just Deep Striked in, then no, it would not work unless the IC also has a rule allowing him to Charge when arriving from Outflank. The IC was not with the unit when the rule triggered its affect. And the IC would be denied the ability to Charge since it just Arrived from Reserves (and not Deep Strike Reserves).

Wait, what? The ic in deepstriking formation also doesn't have allowance the rule. But as he's a part of the unit that has, he can, right?..
Means i can deepstrike a unit, than join a outflanking character, he becomes a part of the unit that deepstruck and still has allowance to charge because he's part of the unit.

That's how this logic works. He's now part of the unit. He stops being a unit of his own, he's just a Unit X now where unit X are vanguard vets. By this logic it doesn't matter what an IC was doing. He's a part of the unit for all rules purposes lol. Can cheeze however you want

 koooaei wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
What about a deepstriking squad and an outflanking IC? If they all become a unit, than it still counts as deepstruck and can still charge? Ic stopped being a unit of his own and the resulting squad just counts as deepstruck?

If an Outflanking IC joined the unit which just Deep Striked in, then no, it would not work unless the IC also has a rule allowing him to Charge when arriving from Outflank. The IC was not with the unit when the rule triggered its affect. And the IC would be denied the ability to Charge since it just Arrived from Reserves (and not Deep Strike Reserves).

Wait, what? The ic in deepstriking formation also doesn't have allowance the rule. But as he's a part of the unit that has, he can, right?..
Means i can deepstrike a unit, than join a outflanking character, he becomes a part of the unit that deepstruck and still has allowance to charge because he's part of the unit.

That's how this logic works. He's now part of the unit. He stops being a unit of his own, he's just a Unit X now where unit X are vanguard vets. By this logic it doesn't matter what an IC was doing. He's a part of the unit for all rules purposes lol. Can cheeze however you want

Timing. That's what you're ignoring.

The rule triggers when deep striking, basically creating a lingering effect on the unit. What do lingering effects do when you join an IC to the affected unit after the effect triggered? What happens if you join an IC to a unit and THEN trigger such an effect?

 koooaei wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
What about a deepstriking squad and an outflanking IC? If they all become a unit, than it still counts as deepstruck and can still charge? Ic stopped being a unit of his own and the resulting squad just counts as deepstruck?

If an Outflanking IC joined the unit which just Deep Striked in, then no, it would not work unless the IC also has a rule allowing him to Charge when arriving from Outflank. The IC was not with the unit when the rule triggered its affect. And the IC would be denied the ability to Charge since it just Arrived from Reserves (and not Deep Strike Reserves).

Wait, what? The ic in deepstriking formation also doesn't have allowance the rule. But as he's a part of the unit that has, he can, right?..
Means i can deepstrike a unit, than join a outflanking character, he becomes a part of the unit that deepstruck and still has allowance to charge because he's part of the unit.

That's how this logic works. He's now part of the unit. He stops being a unit of his own, he's just a Unit X now where unit X are vanguard vets. By this logic it doesn't matter what an IC was doing. He's a part of the unit for all rules purposes lol. Can cheeze however you want

The rule lets you assault after deepstrike.
There are 2 rules stopping this unit assaulting now.

1. assaulting after deepstrike.
2. assaulting after outflank.

You only have permission to ignore 1 of these restrictions, the deepstrike one. So you would still be forbidden from assaulting that turn.

If the character say moved up on a bike to join them after deepstriking, the unit could still deepstrike as the only rule restricting them would be 1. which they haver permission to override

Timing has nothing to do here.

Assaulting after outflank? But the UNIT didn't outflank. It deepstruck. Than an ic joined the deepstruck unit. Which still remaines a deepstruck unit and chan charge and as he's IC he follows the unit's rules now.

How's that different from charging after deepstrike?

 koooaei wrote:
Timing has nothing to do here.

Assaulting after outflank? But the UNIT didn't outflank. It deepstruck. Than an ic joined the deepstruck unit. Which still remaines a deepstruck unit and chan charge and as he's IC he follows the unit's rules now.

How's that different from charging after deepstrike?

Please explain to me why timing has "nothing to do" with this. And you might wanna read up on what lingering effects are and how they're treated when an IC is joining or leaving a unit.

GW has, recently, and in particular with Formation (Detachment) special rules, begun writing the rather unhelpful, "units with X get to do Y".

'Normally' special rules fall into three categories:
1. "Models with X get to do Y"
2. "Units containing at least one model with X get to do Y"
3. "Units comprised entirely of models with X get to do Y"

When presented with "units with X get to do Y", some are interpreting that to be equivalent to, "units containing at least one model with X get to do Y". But the other 'normal' ways to interpret "units with X get to do Y" are just as valid.

For my contribution to the OP's question: It seems that not enough importance is being given to the 'units from this detachment' portion of the rule. THE IC is not a unit from the detachment (inarguable prior to deployment). What happens to the IC when it is attached to the unit that IS from the detachment? Does it suddenly come from the detachment in question? No, this is absurd. Does it benefit from the detachment special rules (via the unit it is joined to)? This is the key question. So far as I'm concerned, "units with X get to do Y" does not explicitly state that an IC (non-faction/non-detachment) benefits, so it doesn't.

Cheers!

Wasn't there a rule, not sure if I'm thinking about outdated rules, that stated that Units only benefited from Formation rules if and only if every Model in the Unit was from said Formation?

That may have been a 6th thing.


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Just read the Detachments/formations section. That rule does not exist in 7th.