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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/02/02 19:25:21
Subject: Re:Formation rules and non-formation IC
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows
Aachen
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DCannon4Life wrote:GW has, recently, and in particular with Formation (Detachment) special rules, begun writing the rather unhelpful, "units with X get to do Y".
'Normally' special rules fall into three categories:
1. "Models with X get to do Y"
2. "Units containing at least one model with X get to do Y"
3. "Units comprised entirely of models with X get to do Y"
When presented with "units with X get to do Y", some are interpreting that to be equivalent to, "units containing at least one model with X get to do Y". But the other 'normal' ways to interpret "units with X get to do Y" are just as valid.
For my contribution to the OP's question: It seems that not enough importance is being given to the 'units from this detachment' portion of the rule. THE IC is not a unit from the detachment (inarguable prior to deployment). What happens to the IC when it is attached to the unit that IS from the detachment? Does it suddenly come from the detachment in question? No, this is absurd. Does it benefit from the detachment special rules (via the unit it is joined to)? This is the key question. So far as I'm concerned, "units with X get to do Y" does not explicitly state that an IC (non-faction/non-detachment) benefits, so it doesn't.
Cheers!
Stubborn doesn't mention ICs explicitly either. So it doesn't work for ICs, right?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/02/02 19:30:03
Subject: Formation rules and non-formation IC
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Not as Good as a Minion
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koooaei wrote:Timing has nothing to do here.
Assaulting after outflank? But the UNIT didn't outflank. It deepstruck. Than an ic joined the deepstruck unit. Which still remaines a deepstruck unit and chan charge and as he's IC he follows the unit's rules now.
How's that different from charging after deepstrike?
Review Independent Characters and Ongoing Effects in the Independent Character rule, then show me where timing does not matter.
DCannon4Life wrote:GW has, recently, and in particular with Formation (Detachment) special rules, begun writing the rather unhelpful, "units with X get to do Y".
'Normally' special rules fall into three categories:
1. "Models with X get to do Y"
2. "Units containing at least one model with X get to do Y"
3. "Units comprised entirely of models with X get to do Y"
When presented with "units with X get to do Y", some are interpreting that to be equivalent to, "units containing at least one model with X get to do Y". But the other 'normal' ways to interpret "units with X get to do Y" are just as valid.
For my contribution to the OP's question: It seems that not enough importance is being given to the 'units from this detachment' portion of the rule. THE IC is not a unit from the detachment (inarguable prior to deployment). What happens to the IC when it is attached to the unit that IS from the detachment? Does it suddenly come from the detachment in question? No, this is absurd. Does it benefit from the detachment special rules (via the unit it is joined to)? This is the key question. So far as I'm concerned, "units with X get to do Y" does not explicitly state that an IC (non-faction/non-detachment) benefits, so it doesn't.
Cheers!
There is no such rule that supports this though. In fact it is counter to the rule that the IC counts as a member of the unit for all rules purposes. This does not exclude ICs joined to another Detachment, nor do the Ally rules exclude it.
ICs do not have their unit identity recognized if they have joined another unit. This allows it to be untargetable by itself when being shot, it is considered as part of the unit when determining if it can use Fleet or Deep Strike, and it is considered part of the unit when a rule affects the unit.
Many tournaments do House Rule against this, but these decisions are as often made on a perception of balance, not on what the rules actually state. Since it is their House, this is fine.
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Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/02/02 23:07:33
Subject: Formation rules and non-formation IC
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Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller
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koooaei wrote:Timing has nothing to do here.
Assaulting after outflank? But the UNIT didn't outflank. It deepstruck. Than an ic joined the deepstruck unit. Which still remaines a deepstruck unit and chan charge and as he's IC he follows the unit's rules now.
How's that different from charging after deepstrike?
The IC is considered part of the unit for all rules purposes. When the rule mentions the unit being allowed to assault the turn they deepstrike it works fine.
However you are still subject to assault restrictions eg. You cannot charge if you go to ground (say from interceptor) despite the fact that you deep struck.
One model is restricted from charging as they arrived from outflank, you charge at the speed of the slowest model, therefore if a model can't charge, the unit can't charge.
The unit as a whole(including IC) is allowed to ignore the restrictions for charging after deepstrike .
They are still subject to normal charge restrictions such as the model arriving from outflank.
You dont have a blanket permission to assault as long as you deepstruck that turn.
The model still arrived from outflank, just as if the model was suffering from strikedown, he is still under effects that slow the unit down, he doesn't lose any status he inherited just because he joined a unit and is part of it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/02/03 06:02:15
Subject: Formation rules and non-formation IC
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!!Goffik Rocker!!
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Well, gentlemen. We've found a hole in rules. Prepare for vets + Lib conclave and sang priests charging from deepstrike without scatter re-rolling everything, auto-arriving when they want.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/03 06:02:28
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/02/03 06:17:35
Subject: Formation rules and non-formation IC
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Not as Good as a Minion
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koooaei wrote:Well, gentlemen. We've found a hole in rules. Prepare for vets + Lib conclave and sang priests charging from deepstrike without scatter re-rolling everything, auto-arriving when they want.
Doesn't sound like a hole, just really powerful and painful. That isn't even new, really.
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Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/02/03 08:27:56
Subject: Formation rules and non-formation IC
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Unfortunatley this doesnt ignore the fact that the Special Rule in question doesnt say it confers to the Independent Character so no you cannot do it. Its pretty cut and dry:
-Independent Character joins a unit he counts as part of the unit.
-The Special Rules of the unit do not confer to the IC unless specifically stated.
It makes no sense that someone who was not purchased in the origional Formation would get a free set of Special Rules by joining it so no, IC's do not benifit from Formation Special rules unless specifically stated, Stubborn is just an example (a poor one i admit but its GW writing we are talking about) but other rules such as Shrouded and Stealth where it specifically states "effects all models in the unit".
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/03 08:30:30
19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/02/03 08:45:05
Subject: Formation rules and non-formation IC
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows
Aachen
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gmaleron wrote:Unfortunatley this doesnt ignore the fact that the Special Rule in question doesnt say it confers to the Independent Character so no you cannot do it. Its pretty cut and dry:
-Independent Character joins a unit he counts as part of the unit.
-The Special Rules of the unit do not confer to the IC unless specifically stated.
It makes no sense that someone who was not purchased in the origional Formation would get a free set of Special Rules by joining it so no, IC's do not benifit from Formation Special rules unless specifically stated, Stubborn is just an example (a poor one i admit but its GW writing we are talking about) but other rules such as Shrouded and Stealth where it specifically states "effects all models in the unit".
Alright, so Stubborn doesn't work between regular units and ICs since anything that doesn't say "affects all models in the units" doesn't work with ICs according to you. Including Shrouded. And Stealth. Because BOTH say "A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule counts its cover saves as being 1(2) point(s) better than normal." which clearly doesn't mention ICs nor does it use "all models in the unit" instead of "A unit".
Nice house rule, but that's it.
And it was explained multiple times by now that not the actual Special Rule is transfered to the attached IC but effect the SR creates simply targets the entire unit. Kinda like Soul Blaze does.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/02/03 08:49:30
Subject: Formation rules and non-formation IC
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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nekooni wrote: Alright, so Stubborn doesn't work between regular units and ICs since anything that doesn't say "affects all models in the units" doesn't work with ICs according to you. Including Shrouded. And Stealth. Because BOTH say "A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule counts its cover saves as being 1(2) point(s) better than normal." which clearly doesn't mention ICs nor does it use "all models in the unit" instead of "A unit".
Nice house rule, but that's it.
And it was explained multiple times by now that not the actual Special Rule is transfered to the attached IC but effect the SR creates simply targets the entire unit. Kinda like Soul Blaze does.
To clarify word for word from the Rulebook:
"When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different Special Rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn Special Rule), the units Special Rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character and the Independent Characters Special Rules are not conferred upon the unit."
According to this it clearly states that if the Special Rule in question doesnt say it effects Independent Characters or all models in the unit then the IC cannot benifit from it. It is not a "House Rule" as you so claim, it is the actual rule found in the rulebook so anything else, such as allowing IC's the Special Rule would be the "House Rule". Also the fact that it says "A Unit" would affect the IC because he counts as part of the unit and this Special Rule states that all models in the unit are affected, which would include the IC that is attached to it Its pretty cut and dry. Also unit is made up of all the models in the particular unit so they are all one and the same.
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This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2016/02/03 08:59:03
19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/02/03 09:24:36
Subject: Formation rules and non-formation IC
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows
Aachen
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gmaleron wrote:nekooni wrote: Alright, so Stubborn doesn't work between regular units and ICs since anything that doesn't say "affects all models in the units" doesn't work with ICs according to you. Including Shrouded. And Stealth. Because BOTH say "A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule counts its cover saves as being 1(2) point(s) better than normal." which clearly doesn't mention ICs nor does it use "all models in the unit" instead of "A unit".
Nice house rule, but that's it.
And it was explained multiple times by now that not the actual Special Rule is transfered to the attached IC but effect the SR creates simply targets the entire unit. Kinda like Soul Blaze does.
To clarify word for word from the Rulebook:
"When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different Special Rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn Special Rule), the units Special Rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character and the Independent Characters Special Rules are not conferred upon the unit."
According to this it clearly states that if the Special Rule in question doesnt say it effects Independent Characters or all models in the unit then the IC cannot benifit from it. It is not a "House Rule" as you so claim, it is the actual rule found in the rulebook so anything else, such as allowing IC's the Special Rule would be the "House Rule". Also the fact that it says "A Unit" would affect the IC because he counts as part of the unit and this Special Rule states that all models in the unit are affected, which would include the IC that is attached to it Its pretty cut and dry. Also unit is made up of all the models in the particular unit so they are all one and the same.
First of all, you're contradicting yourself here. Either "A unit" or "Name of unit" is sufficient to share with ICs or it isn't. How do you explain that it works in one case and not in another? That differenciation is what I am calling a house rule.
Then: To my knowledge Shrouded, Stealth and Stubborn never say that they affect "models", they affect the unit as a whole. Please show me the line of rules text you're refering to.
I'd also like proof for the bolded part of this statement:
if the Special Rule in question doesnt say it effects Independent Characters or all models in the unit then the IC cannot benifit from it
And since you completely missed that argument apparently: Not the Special Rule is transfered, it is just that the IC benefits from the SR since the SR targets the unit the IC is part of. JUST like Shrouded does, just like stubborn does.
Otherwise Soul Blaze - which also in itself is a Special Rule that does NOT mention ICs or anything that you claim is required - would be unable to affect attached ICs. Yet the IC section clearly states that Soul Blaze , if triggered while the IC is part of the unit, is also affecting the IC. Neither the IC nor the unit "gain" the Soul Blaze Special Rule, though, so the IC rule of "SRs are not transfered" is not broken. Same with what we're arguing about here.
*edit* And no, you don't get to claim that ALL the examples given by GW in the IC chapter are "bad examples" since none of them work with your way of interpreting the rules. Stubborn is specifically named as an example, and so is Soul Blaze.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/03 09:26:36
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/02/03 09:33:32
Subject: Re:Formation rules and non-formation IC
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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So Soul Blaze has a specific section where it clearly states that IC's are affected by it, why is it being used as an example then? Also dont see where you are getting "name of a unit" or "the unit" from so i am still confused what you mean by "house rule". And you are misunderstanding me, let me break it down:
From the Rule Book:
Formations: "Instead of including a FOC the Army List entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any special rules that those units gain."
"When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different Special Rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn Special Rule), the units Special Rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character and the Independent Characters Special Rules are not conferred upon the unit."
-So a Formation has to use the specific Army List entries that it has listed on it.
-The Rules found in Formations are listed as "Special Rules"
-According to the paragraph that defnies IC's and Special Rules listed above the Special Rules in question have to specifically say they effect the ICs.
The reason I mention if the Special Rule in question states that all models in the unit are affected in some way shape or form (I was not trying to say it word for word form the rulebook) is because at that point it would then effect the IC because for all intents and purposes he counts as part of the unit.
And I never claimed that all examples by GW were bad so please stop putting words in my mouth it accomplishes nothing.
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This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2016/02/03 09:48:00
19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/02/03 10:01:04
Subject: Formation rules and non-formation IC
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Why are you using two different words?
The rule does not have to be conferred in order for an IC to benefit from the rule. You keep using the two as if they are interchangeable, Theyre not
Your argument has been demolished every time it comes up, in the same way every time. It has literally no legs. Also, noone really cared about rules such as FNP from painboyz affecting ICs, its only since formations such as Skyhammer came in that this panicked reaction has occured.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/02/03 10:06:03
Subject: Re:Formation rules and non-formation IC
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows
Aachen
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gmaleron wrote:So Soul Blaze has a specific section where it clearly states that IC's are affected by it, why is it being used as an example then?
Please provide a quote, as I have asked you to do in two other instances already. there is no specific section stating what you claim in the Soul Blaze rule within the Special Rules section of the Englisch 40k BRB nor is it in the German 40k BRB. The only instance where it IS mentioned is in the Independent Characters and Ongoing Effects section where it is used as an example for how ongoing effects - just like the rule in question here produces - are treated.
The reason I mention if the Special Rule in question states that all models in the unit are affected in some way shape or form (I was not trying to say it word for word form the rulebook) is because at that point it would then effect the IC because for all intents and purposes he counts as part of the unit.
Provide a quote. None of the Special Rules you provided as examples state that they affect all models in the unit. They affect the unit, just like the rules in question here do.
And I never claimed that all examples by GW were bad so please stop putting words in my mouth it accomplishes nothing.
You claimed it for Stubborn when it was pointed out that it doesn't actually mention ICs, and since I brought up Soul Blaze I just wanted to make sure you do not use the same excuse there.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/03 10:08:18
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/02/03 10:08:47
Subject: Formation rules and non-formation IC
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!!Goffik Rocker!!
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Does the word "Confer" mean he doesn't get the special rule or he doesn't get the benefits of special rule? Linguistic exercise.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/02/03 10:23:40
Subject: Re:Formation rules and non-formation IC
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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nekooni wrote:
Please provide a quote, as I have asked you to do in two other instances already. there is no specific section stating what you claim in the Soul Blaze rule within the Special Rules section of the Englisch 40k BRB nor is it in the German 40k BRB. The only instance where it IS mentioned is in the Independent Characters and Ongoing Effects section where it is used as an example for how ongoing effects - just like the rule in question here produces - are treated.
I currrently am away from my Rulebook as I had to head into work now but once I get home I will be able to. And you brought up Soul Blaze to begin with, if it was part of "ongoing effects" instead of Special Rules and how IC's interact with them why bring it up in the first place?
Provide a quote. None of the Special Rules you provided as examples state that they affect all models in the unit. They affect the unit, just like the rules in question here do.
A unit is made up of all the models in the unit, otherwise the unit wouldnt exist, its the same thing.
Also you failed to address the points I made from what was actually written in the Rule Book before I left for work. According to RAW unless the Special Rules from the Formation specifically state that they effect Independent Characters that are taken outside the Formation then they cannot benifit from them as they are listed under Special Rules as per the section of Special Rules and IC's.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/02/03 10:35:53
19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/02/03 10:46:47
Subject: Re:Formation rules and non-formation IC
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows
Aachen
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gmaleron wrote:nekooni wrote:
Please provide a quote, as I have asked you to do in two other instances already. there is no specific section stating what you claim in the Soul Blaze rule within the Special Rules section of the Englisch 40k BRB nor is it in the German 40k BRB. The only instance where it IS mentioned is in the Independent Characters and Ongoing Effects section where it is used as an example for how ongoing effects - just like the rule in question here produces - are treated.
I currrently am away from my Rulebook as I am working right now but once I get home I will be able to. And you brought up Soul Blaze to begin with, if it was part of "ongoing effects" instead of Special Rules and how IC's interact with them why bring it up in the first place?
Provide a quote. None of the Special Rules you provided as examples state that they affect all models in the unit. They affect the unit, just like the rules in question here do.
A unit is made up of all the models in the unit, otherwise the unit wouldnt exist, its the same thing.
Also you failed to address the points I made from what was actually written in the Rule Book before I left for work and have not brought up a counter point to said rules I showed. Bottom line, IC's cannot benifit from a Formations Special Rule if they are not part of it to begin with. The paragraph stating the interaction between IC's and Special Rules clearly indicates that.
You're rewording and by that changing the meaning of the rules.
The rules do NOT state that an IC cannot benefit (= profit) from SRs unless mentioned, it merely says that the SR itself cannot be confered (=copied, transfered) to the IC and vice versa. That's the counterargument which has been brought up multiple times and you've ignored it.
I'm asking you to provide quotes because I do have a rulebook with me, and I can't find the lines of text that would support your claims on how the rules are written or what they say.
It might be advisable to discuss rules as written with a copy of the fething written rules nearby instead of just making them up as you go, don't you think?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/02/03 10:51:39
Subject: Formation rules and non-formation IC
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!!Goffik Rocker!!
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But ish't Conferring a rule = Benefiting from it?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/02/03 10:53:34
Subject: Re:Formation rules and non-formation IC
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Not making anything up, that "quote" is listed under the Independent Characters section on the right hand side of the page detailing IC's and Special Characters, maybe you should fething read? The same goes with what I listed for Formations. You have not demolished anything of the sort, you have yet to provide any ample proof that IC's can indeed benifit from Special Rules if they just join a Formation. Claiming you are right without any proof doesnt make you right, you need to calm down and stop throwing a temper tantrum just because someone disagrees with you, its a game grow up.
I on the other hand, going off RAW as listed with Independent Characters and how they interact with Special Rules do not need ot provide anything else because you have yet to disprove it, its simple yet again:
From the Rule Book:
-Formations: "Instead of including a FOC the Army List entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any special rules that those units gain."
-"When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different Special Rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn Special Rule), the units Special Rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character and the Independent Characters Special Rules are not conferred upon the unit."
-As is listed under Formations only the Army List Entries listed on it are mentioned to benefit from the Special Rules of the Formation.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/02/03 10:59:33
19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/02/03 10:54:26
Subject: Formation rules and non-formation IC
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows
Aachen
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They are two different things, that's the point. Look up the words, it helped me a lot to translate both to my native language. Automatically Appended Next Post: gmaleron wrote:Not making anything up, that "quote" is listed under the Independent Characters section on the right hand side of the page detailing IC's and Special Characters, maybe you should fething read? You have not demolished anything of the sort, you have yet to provide any ample proof that IC's can indeed benifit from Special Rules if they just join a Formation. You need to calm down and stop throwing a temper tantrum just because someone disagrees with you, its a game grow up.
The rules do not say that IC cannot benefit. It is as simple as that.
I'm not throwing a temper tantrum, but it is annoying to discuss written rules when one side does not have said written rules and keeps making claims that once checked seem to not be supported by the rulebook.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/03 10:59:26
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/02/03 11:00:23
Subject: Re:Formation rules and non-formation IC
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Then quote what is written under Formations and Independent Characters from the Rule Book because I copied it word for word before I left for work. Its also annoying to have someone claim they are right without providing any proof or support to their argument.
verb (used without object), conferred, conferring.
1.
to consult together; compare opinions; carry on a discussion or deliberation.
verb (used with object), conferred, conferring.
2.
to bestow upon as a gift, favor, honor, etc.:
to confer a degree on a graduate.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/02/03 11:03:05
19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/02/03 11:05:08
Subject: Formation rules and non-formation IC
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!!Goffik Rocker!!
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Yep, it doesn't help.
All we have is that special rules are not conferred from the squad upon a character. It can mean that he can still "benefit" from rules without getting them...sounds odd...via unit or that he doesn't get anything as he doesn't get special rules conferred upon him from the unit.
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This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2016/02/03 11:10:51
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/02/03 11:09:56
Subject: Formation rules and non-formation IC
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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koooaei wrote:Yep, it doesn't help.
All we have is that special rules are not conferred from the squad upon a character. It can mean that he gets the benefits without the special rule via unit or that he doesn't get anything as he doesn't get sr conferred upon him from the unit.
The exception for this would be if the Character in Question was part of the Formation to begin, it makes no sense that you could add a random character from outside the Formation and give them the Formations Special Rules. God forbid having Marneus Calgar join the Skyhammer Assault Formation, makes absolutely 0 sense. The fact the the rules for Formations are listed as "Special Rules" ensure that nothing outside of the Formation, including IC's could benifit from it thanks to RAW.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/03 11:11:41
19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/02/03 11:11:38
Subject: Formation rules and non-formation IC
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!!Goffik Rocker!!
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RAW doesn't make sence from the get go, so...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/02/03 11:13:14
Subject: Formation rules and non-formation IC
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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In this case it is pretty clear cut thanks to how IC's interact with Special Rules, GW does have a reputation for writing some things poorly however I can agree with that.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/03 11:14:56
19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/02/03 11:43:40
Subject: Formation rules and non-formation IC
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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So even your quote (ignoring the tenets) doesnt show that your conflation of confer with benefit has any merit?
I can have the benefit of a rule without having the rule. Shrouded, stealth etc.
Your oft quoted rule says absolutely NOTHING about benefitting being the same as conferring, and therefore they are not.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/02/03 11:49:15
Subject: Re:Formation rules and non-formation IC
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[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego
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gmaleron wrote:, you need to calm down and stop throwing a temper tantrum just because someone disagrees with you, its a game grow up.
Good advice for all posters.
It means people will avoid comments like
maybe you should fething read?
Which do not help at all.
So please do not do it.
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The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king, |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/02/03 11:51:34
Subject: Re:Formation rules and non-formation IC
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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nekooni wrote:I'm asking you to provide quotes because I do have a rulebook with me, and I can't find the lines of text that would support your claims on how the rules are written or what they say.
It might be advisable to discuss rules as written with a copy of the fething written rules nearby instead of just making them up as you go, don't you think?
It goes both ways with nekooni as well, might want to quote him to, am more then happy to have a discussion on the matter however immatuirty and attempts to insult my intelligence dont help the issue. Ill be cool if he decides to be.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/03 11:56:35
19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/02/03 11:53:54
Subject: Formation rules and non-formation IC
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Could yo please show where "confer" and "benefit" have the same exact meaning? (British English)
If not, could you please stop using them as if they are the same word?
I do not have to "have" a rule to "benefit" from the rule. An IC with Stealth joining a unit means everyone in the unit "benefits" from the rule, while never actually possessing it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/02/03 11:58:57
Subject: Formation rules and non-formation IC
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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nosferatu1001 wrote:Could yo please show where "confer" and "benefit" have the same exact meaning? (British English)
If not, could you please stop using them as if they are the same word?
I do not have to "have" a rule to "benefit" from the rule. An IC with Stealth joining a unit means everyone in the unit "benefits" from the rule, while never actually possessing it.
I never claimed that they had the same meaning so I fail to understand what you are referring to?
And you are correct you do not have to have the rule to benifit from a Special rule, however that Special Rule has to state that it effects IC's (or as mentioned states that it provides the rules benifit to the unit in its specific form) as per how IC's interact with Special Rules in the Rulebook.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/02/03 12:00:20
19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/02/03 12:12:45
Subject: Formation rules and non-formation IC
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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"You have not demolished anything of the sort, you have yet to provide any ample proof that IC's can indeed benifit (sic) from Special Rules if they just join a Formation"
"Formations: "Instead of including a FOC the Army List entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any special rules that those units gain."
Yet you then mangled that quote to say:
"-As is listed under Formations only the Army List Entries listed on it are mentioned to benefit from the Special Rules of the Formation. "
You clearly conflate, multiple times, gain (aka confer in thius context) and benefit. Similarly, here you ignore that the unit gains the rule. the IC is anormal member of the unit, so the unit still gains the rule.
the ACTUAL rule, as posted, makes no mention of "effect". You literally just made that up
ALL the Special Rules and ICs rule states is when an IC is conferred the rule. Nothing more. Not "effect", not "benefit", JUST "confer"
Your argument is the same as every time this comes up: fatally flawed, as it confuses and conflates "conferred" with "benefit", and somehow thinks the two are the same. Automatically Appended Next Post: As another example - see my under lines gmaleron wrote:nekooni wrote: Alright, so Stubborn doesn't work between regular units and ICs since anything that doesn't say "affects all models in the units" doesn't work with ICs according to you. Including Shrouded. And Stealth. Because BOTH say "A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule counts its cover saves as being 1(2) point(s) better than normal." which clearly doesn't mention ICs nor does it use "all models in the unit" instead of "A unit".
Nice house rule, but that's it.
And it was explained multiple times by now that not the actual Special Rule is transfered to the attached IC but effect the SR creates simply targets the entire unit. Kinda like Soul Blaze does.
To clarify word for word from the Rulebook:
"When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different Special Rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn Special Rule), the units Special Rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character and the Independent Characters Special Rules are not conferred upon the unit."
According to this it clearly states that if the Special Rule in question doesnt say it effects Independent Characters or all models in the unit then the IC cannot benifit (sic) from it. It is not a "House Rule" as you so claim, it is the actual rule found in the rulebook so anything else, such as allowing IC's the Special Rule would be the "House Rule". Also the fact that it says "A Unit" would affect the IC because he counts as part of the unit and this Special Rule states that all models in the unit are affected, which would include the IC that is attached to it Its pretty cut and dry. Also unit is made up of all the models in the particular unit so they are all one and the same.
You go through confer -> effect -> benefit
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/03 12:14:19
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/02/03 12:21:13
Subject: Re:Formation rules and non-formation IC
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The unit gains the Special Rule, however for the IC as listed in the Rulebook clearly states:
"When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different Special Rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn Special Rule), the units Special Rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character and the Independent Characters Special Rules are not conferred upon the unit."
For all your confering, effect ect. argument it still doesnt change the fact that IC's cannot benifit from Special Rules unless it is stated in some way, shape or form and you have yet to disprove that. IC's have an additional clause to aquiring a Special Rule that they do not already come with, anyone who thinks they can add any IC to a Formation and get a free Special Rule is cheating.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/03 12:24:09
19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
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