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The rule says "Vanguard Veteran Squads" can charge

It does not say a model in the unit effects the entire unit, therefore only the Vanguard Veterans can charge.

This is wrong.
It says "Vanguard Veteran Squads" can charge. Therefore "Vanguard Veteran Squads" can charge.

And as we know, the IC is part of the "Vanguard Veteran Squad"

 gmaleron wrote:

harkequin wrote:
For the record here is a short list of some of the rules you break.
Zealot. Congrats you broke a rule important to a lot of armies
Fearless
Stubborn
Shrouded
Slow and purposful
etc.

Fearless specifically states if at least a single model in the unit effects the entire unit...so does stubborn, and shrouded ect. On Target says nothing like that, it says it effects the Vanguard Veteran Squad and since the Chaplin is an IC On Target would have to effect him like shrouded, fearless ect. works on him but it doesn't. You are just proving my point, those Special Rules have a clear rule "if a single model has it everyone in the unit is affected" which includes the IC as it says "affects the entire unit". The IC followed the same rules when it comes to Special Rules and thanks to how the particular rules are worded he can benefit from them, On Target does not.

But ICs are never specifically mentioned at all, so they must not confer their benefits to ICs. Yet, this is how Stubborn works, the unit Benefits from the rule, and the IC counts as being part of the unit.

Can you separate the Chaplain model from the Vanguard Veteran Squad identity without violating this concept?

If you do for On target, than you do it for Stubborn, Zealot, Running, being Shot at etc. There is no level of difference in this consideration.

The chaplain is part of an unit. The unit is the vanguard veteran squad.

The chaplain however is not part of the vanguard veteran squad

How does your mind work?

harkequin wrote:

The rule says "Vanguard Veteran Squads" can charge
It does not say a model in the unit effects the entire unit, therefore only the Vanguard Veterans can charge.

This is wrong.
It says "Vanguard Veteran Squads" can charge. Therefore "Vanguard Veteran Squads" can charge.
And as we know, the IC is part of the "Vanguard Veteran Squad"

Except he does not get the On Target Special Rule as we have just proven, he is not able to charge no matter how much you want him to! Saying he can over and over without looking at all of the rules that involve Special Rules and Independent Characters doesn't work.

 gmaleron wrote:
The rule says "Vanguard Veteran Squads" can charge

It does not say a model in the unit effects the entire unit, therefore only the Vanguard Veterans can charge.

So when an IC is joined to the unit, that unit is no longer a 'Vanguard Veteran Squad'? Because that is what 'On Target' says is effected. You're right, the rule does not specify 'Vanguard Veterans'. Thus any model in the 'Vanguard Veteran Squad' is effected whether all the models are 'Vanguard Veterans' or not.

 gmaleron wrote:

harkequin wrote:

The rule says "Vanguard Veteran Squads" can charge
It does not say a model in the unit effects the entire unit, therefore only the Vanguard Veterans can charge.

This is wrong.
It says "Vanguard Veteran Squads" can charge. Therefore "Vanguard Veteran Squads" can charge.
And as we know, the IC is part of the "Vanguard Veteran Squad"

Except he does not get the On Target Special Rule as we have just proven, he is not able to charge no matter how much you want him to! Saying he can over and over without looking at all of the rules that involve Special Rules and Independent Characters doesn't work.

Where does it require all models to have the rule like Fleet or Deep Strike?

Zimko wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
The rule says "Vanguard Veteran Squads" can charge
It does not say a model in the unit effects the entire unit, therefore only the Vanguard Veterans can charge.

So when an IC is joined to the unit, that unit is no longer a 'Vanguard Veteran Squad'? Because that is what 'On Target' says is effected. You're right, the rule does not specify 'Vanguard Veterans'. Thus any model in the 'Vanguard Veteran Squad' is effected whether all the models are 'Vanguard Veterans' or not.

No, the On Target rule effects the Vanguard Veteran Squad. When the IC joins the Vanguard Veteran Squad he is part of the squad, however he is an Independent Character so he has to follow the rules for Special Rules and Independent Characters found on page 166. It clearly states that if the Special Rule in some way does not include the IC he cannot benefit, I don't get what you guys are finding so hard about this its so damn easy!

Charistoph wrote:
Except he does not get the On Target Special Rule as we have just proven, he is not able to charge no matter how much you want him to! Saying he can over and over without looking at all of the rules that involve Special Rules and Independent Characters doesn't work.
Where does it require all models to have the rule like Fleet or Deep Strike?

It says so in each Special Rules Description.

 gmaleron wrote:

harkequin wrote:

The rule says "Vanguard Veteran Squads" can charge
It does not say a model in the unit effects the entire unit, therefore only the Vanguard Veterans can charge.

This is wrong.
It says "Vanguard Veteran Squads" can charge. Therefore "Vanguard Veteran Squads" can charge.
And as we know, the IC is part of the "Vanguard Veteran Squad"

Except he does not get the On Target Special Rule as we have just proven, he is not able to charge no matter how much you want him to! Saying he can over and over without looking at all of the rules that involve Special Rules and Independent Characters doesn't work.

And as we have proven he does not need the on target rule. just as stubborn affects the unit. On target affects the unit.

 gmaleron wrote:

Zimko wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
The rule says "Vanguard Veteran Squads" can charge
It does not say a model in the unit effects the entire unit, therefore only the Vanguard Veterans can charge.

So when an IC is joined to the unit, that unit is no longer a 'Vanguard Veteran Squad'? Because that is what 'On Target' says is effected. You're right, the rule does not specify 'Vanguard Veterans'. Thus any model in the 'Vanguard Veteran Squad' is effected whether all the models are 'Vanguard Veterans' or not.

No, the On Target rule effects the Vanguard Veteran Squad. When the IC joins the Vanguard Veteran Squad he is part of the squad, however he is an Independent Character so he has to follow the rules for Special Rules and Independent Characters found on page 166. It clearly states that if the Special Rule in some way does not include the IC he cannot benefit, I don't get what you guys are finding so hard about this its so damn easy!

No, the rule says this:

When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different Special Rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn Special Rule), the units Special Rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character and the Independent Characters Special Rules are not conferred upon the unit."

No where does it say a rule can not benefit the IC. It just can't confer, which means he is never given the special rule. However, just like Stubborn, the special rule does not require that every model in the unit have the special rule in order to benefit.

It clearly states that if the Special Rule in some way does not include the IC he cannot benefit,

No! it doesn't!

There you are lying again.

What it says, is that he is not CONFERED the rule. Benefit is never mentioned.

As we established with fearless. Models dont need to be CONFERED the rule to benefit from it.

harkequin wrote:

And as we have proven he does not need the on target rule. just as stubborn affects the unit. On target affects the unit.

Dude STOP! On Target does not say the same thing as Stubborn does, just stop its getting ridiculous at this point.

And I am not lying, quit trying to say I am in order to make your argument look legitimate. We didn't establish anything, IT IS THE SPECIAL RULE ITSELF THAT HAS TO GIVE THE BENEFIT. IF THE SPECIAL RULE DOES NOT THEN THE IC DOES NOT GET IT. The Fearless Special Rule clearly says only one model in the unit has to have it to effect them all IN ITS DESCRIPTION. On Target does not in any way shape or form, he cant do and if you are you are cheating against your opponent.

 gmaleron wrote:

harkequin wrote:

And as we have proven he does not need the on target rule. just as stubborn affects the unit. On target affects the unit.

Dude STOP! On Target does not say the same thing as Stubborn does, just stop its getting ridiculous at this point.

It says it effects the unit.
Stubborn says it effects the unit.
Neither mentions ICs
This is why its relevant.

harkequin wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

harkequin wrote:

And as we have proven he does not need the on target rule. just as stubborn affects the unit. On target affects the unit.

Dude STOP! On Target does not say the same thing as Stubborn does, just stop its getting ridiculous at this point.

It says it effects the unit.
Stubborn says it effects the unit.
Neither mentions ICs
This is why its relevant.

It isn't relevant at all, stop it. Let me break it down yet again:
On target effects the Vanguard Veteran Squad,
The Chaplin joins the unit he becomes part of the Squad
the Chaplin is an IC
IC have to follow guidelines for special rules
if the special rule does not benefit the IC (which Special Rules are listed under Command Benefits under Detachments) then the IC cannot get it. You are not able to do it and you are cheating if you do.

And I am not lying, quit trying to say I am in order to make your argument look legitimate. We didn't establish anything, IT IS THE SPECIAL RULE ITSELF THAT HAS TO GIVE THE BENEFIT. IF THE SPECIAL RULE DOES NOT THEN THE IC DOES NOT GET IT

prove it, where does it say this in the BRB?

We covered this with fearless. You even agreed!

As long as one model in the unit has this rule The unit passes morale etc ....

The other models dont "get" the rule , they benefit from it.

 gmaleron wrote:

Zimko wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
The rule says "Vanguard Veteran Squads" can charge
It does not say a model in the unit effects the entire unit, therefore only the Vanguard Veterans can charge.

So when an IC is joined to the unit, that unit is no longer a 'Vanguard Veteran Squad'? Because that is what 'On Target' says is effected. You're right, the rule does not specify 'Vanguard Veterans'. Thus any model in the 'Vanguard Veteran Squad' is effected whether all the models are 'Vanguard Veterans' or not.

No, the On Target rule effects the Vanguard Veteran Squad. When the IC joins the Vanguard Veteran Squad he is part of the squad, however he is an Independent Character so he has to follow the rules for Special Rules and Independent Characters found on page 166. It clearly states that if the Special Rule in some way does not include the IC he cannot benefit, I don't get what you guys are finding so hard about this its so damn easy!

Charistoph wrote:
Except he does not get the On Target Special Rule as we have just proven, he is not able to charge no matter how much you want him to! Saying he can over and over without looking at all of the rules that involve Special Rules and Independent Characters doesn't work.
Where does it require all models to have the rule like Fleet or Deep Strike?

It says so in each Special Rules Description.

Again with the lies. If you want me to stop pointing out when you are lying, stop lying. You know the special rule section of the IC rules makes no mention of how ICS benefit or are effected by special rules only his they gain them. So rescind this lie so we can actually try to have a polite discussion. Lying is rude and not helpful in a rules discussion so has no place on this forum. Please follow the forum rules.

harkequin wrote:


prove it, where does it say this in the BRB?
We covered this with fearless. You even agreed!
As long as one model in the unit has this rule The unit passes morale etc ....
The other models dont "get" the rule , they benefit from it.

I HAVE if you would listen for a change, page 166 for Independent Characters, page 118 and 121 for Formations and Detachments its that easy, read your book. Read Fearless as well, believe its page 172, and you just proved my point! The Special Rule itself gives the benefit as I have been saying, On Target does not!!

 FlingitNow wrote:
Again with the lies. If you want me to stop pointing out when you are lying, stop lying. You know the special rule section of the IC rules makes no mention of how ICS benefit or are effected by special rules only his they gain them. So rescind this lie so we can actually try to have a polite discussion. Lying is rude and not helpful in a rules discussion so has no place on this forum. Please follow the forum rules.

Typical a liar calling someone else a liar, grow up kid. It is clearly listed in the description of every Special Rule how they effect the unit that has the particular special rule. You are the one making this a hostile and rude discussion due to your inability to take RAW as RAW, you need to follow the forum rules as you are being just as rude with you constant implications that I am lying and not knowing what I am talking about, it goes both ways.

. On target effects the Vanguard Veteran Squad, The Chaplin joins the unit he becomes part of the Squad,

Stop here, you have the right answer.

IC have to follow guidelines for special rules, if the special rule does not benefit the IC

AGAIN!
you are literally changing the words in the BRB to suit your argument. That is Lying.

you are cheating if you do.

And yet I'm not the one changing the BRB words to suit me.

I'm done here.

also

your inability to take RAW as RAW,

yet you are the one changing whats written, Bravo.


What the BRB says "ICs are not confered the rules"
What you pretend it says " ICs cant benefit from special rules"

These are different sentences.
You are being dishonest and literally changing the BRB to suit your argument.

Have a nice evening.

Here we go again someone who has no idea how to read a book:

I am not changing anything in the book, you are ignoring parts of the rules to benefit your argument. So yes you are CHEATING.

IC's are not conferred the rules as per page 166, meaning they are not GIVEN the rules. Meaning that if the Special Rule itself doesn't GIVE them access to the rule they cannot get it.

You are the one being dishonest and I feel sorry for your future opponents your going to cheat against in order to win.

Summarizing what is written in the BRB because you refuse to agree to what is written RAW to suit your own needs is not my problem, literacy its not overrated.

gmaleron, what does it mean to confer a special rule?
What does it mean to benefit from a special rule?
What does the rulebook say about ICs and special rules?

Where do the rules say that special rules granted by formationds are Command Benefits?

Typical a liar calling someone else a liar, grow up kid. It is clearly listed in the description of every Special Rule how they effect the unit that has the particular special rule. You are the one making this a hostile and rude discussion due to your inability to take RAW as RAW, you need to follow the forum rules as you are being just as rude with you constant implications that I am lying and not knowing what I am talking about, it goes both ways. 

Where have I lied? Point to it?

No, the On Target rule effects the Vanguard Veteran Squad. When the IC joins the Vanguard Veteran Squad he is part of the squad, however he is an Independent Character so he has to follow the rules for Special Rules and Independent Characters found on page 166. It clearly states that if the Special Rule in some way does not include the IC he cannot benefit, I don't get what you guys are finding so hard about this its so damn easy! 

This is a lie as I pointed to. You know full well page 166 which you quote directly here says nothing about how ICs benefit from special rules. So you have stated something you know is untrue that is a lie. Which, as I stated, is impolite and not conducive to a productive rules dispute.

So now you're saying in the special rules description which determines how the unit is effected right? So what does this special rule say? Is there any part of it that rule that prohibits an attached IC from benefitting? If so please quote it.

 Happyjew wrote:
gmaleron, what does it mean to confer a special rule?
What does it mean to benefit from a special rule?
What does the rulebook say about ICs and special rules?

Where do the rules say that special rules granted by formationds are Command Benefits?

To grant or bestow a special rule

To be able to use said special rule in game

When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different Special Rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn Special Rule), the units Special Rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character and the Independent Characters Special Rules are not conferred upon the unit." Pg166

Command Benefits Page 121:

This section of the Detachments lists any Special Rules or benefits that apply to some or all models in that Detachment. For Example, the units in a Combined Arms Detachment benefit from the Ideal Mission Commander and Objective Secured Special Rules.

A formation is a kind of detachment

And once again I'm not lying you need to knock it off, page 166 is the page you go to where it says that special rules have to be conferred to the independent character. That is not untrue, just because I'm not specifically stating the exact page number of the specific special rule does not mean I'm lying. You are nitpicking and so technical to the points to try and prove your argument with plenty of evidence to the contrary. Sorry no matter how you try trying to defame my character to prove your argument won't work

 gmaleron wrote:

IC's are not conferred the rules as per page 166, meaning they are not GIVEN the rules. Meaning that if the Special Rule itself doesn't GIVE them access to the rule they cannot get it.

This is exactly what everyone is saying. You have been adding the word 'benefit'. No one is suggesting that On Target is 'conferred' to the IC. We are only saying that he may still 'benefit' from the rule since the rule targets the unit he is part of.

Zimko wrote:


This is exactly what everyone is saying. You have been adding the word 'benefit'. No one is suggesting that On Target is 'conferred' to the IC. We are only saying that he may still 'benefit' from the rule since the rule targets the unit he is part of.

I understand what you're saying but you have to read the on target special rule, in no way shape or form does it benefit the IC is the point I'm trying to make. Fearless, the rule that was continually brought up as an example clearly states that a model in the unit affects the entire unit which is why the IC would be affected.

 gmaleron wrote:

Zimko wrote:


This is exactly what everyone is saying. You have been adding the word 'benefit'. No one is suggesting that On Target is 'conferred' to the IC. We are only saying that he may still 'benefit' from the rule since the rule targets the unit he is part of.

I understand what you're saying but you have to read the on target special rule, in no way shape or form does it benefit the IC is the point I'm trying to make.

And we're saying that it doesn't need to specify that it also benefits ICs since no rule restricts the IC from 'benefitting' from it. There is only a rule preventing On Target from being 'conferred', which does not mean he can't 'benefit' from it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It may be poorly written or unintended but that's how the rules read. Permission is given to follow the special rule to the letter. No restriction prevents it from benefiting the entire unit.

Zimko wrote:

And we're saying that it doesn't need to specify that it also benefits ICs since no rule restricts the IC from 'benefitting' from it. There is only a rule preventing On Target from being 'conferred', which does not mean he can't 'benefit' from it.

It has to in some way shape or form as described on page 166
To confirm means to grant or bestow, meaning the special rule has to be bestowed upon that IC in some way shape or form. The rules read opposite, the special rule in question has to be able to be bestowed upon the independent character, if that is not an option in any way or form the IC cannot receive it.

 gmaleron wrote:

Zimko wrote:

And we're saying that it doesn't need to specify that it also benefits ICs since no rule restricts the IC from 'benefitting' from it. There is only a rule preventing On Target from being 'conferred', which does not mean he can't 'benefit' from it.

It has to in some way shape or form as described on page 166
To confirm means to grant or bestow, meaning the special rule has to be bestowed upon that IC in some way shape or form.

It must be bestowed in order for him to 'have' or 'possess' the rule, yes. But it need not be 'bestowed' on him in order for him to be effected. For example, Blind can effect him without it being 'conferred' to him.

"Sometimes, a unit that an Independent Character has joined will be the target of a beneficial or harmful effect, such as those bestowed by the Blind special rule, for example. If the character leaves the unit, both he and the unit continue to be affected by the effect, so you’ll need to mark the character accordingly.

Conversely, if an Independent Character joins a unit after that unit has been the target of an ongoing effect (or joins a unit after himself having been the target of an ongoing effect) benefits and penalties from that effect are not shared."

 gmaleron wrote:

Zimko wrote:

And we're saying that it doesn't need to specify that it also benefits ICs since no rule restricts the IC from 'benefitting' from it. There is only a rule preventing On Target from being 'conferred', which does not mean he can't 'benefit' from it.

It has to in some way shape or form as described on page 166
To confirm means to grant or bestow, meaning the special rule has to be bestowed upon that IC in some way shape or form.

So the Special Rule has to mention the IC to confer to him. We all agree. Now show it needs to confer to him to effect him?

On target only affects the Vanguard veteran unit when it comes in from deep strike, it specifically targets the Vanguard veteran squad. The chaplain is an IC who does not have the deep strike rule to begin with and the special rule that has to be able to be bestowed upon him, the fact that it can't even be bestowed upon him means he cannot benefit from it. That would be like a squad of tactical Marines joining Marneus Calgar and them all getting relentless because he has it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I am sorry for losing my temper, I don't like being ganged up on and my cancer medication isn't helping things.

 gmaleron wrote:
On target only affects the Vanguard veteran unit when it comes in from deep strike, it specifically targets the Vanguard veteran squad. The chaplain is an IC who does not have the deep strike rule to begin with and the special rule that has to be able to be bestowed upon him, the fact that it can't even be bestowed upon him means he cannot benefit from it. That would be like a squad of tactical Marines joining Marneus Calgar and them all getting relentless because he has it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I am sorry for losing my temper, I don't like being ganged up on and my cancer medication isn't helping things.

jump pack. he has deepstrike

harkequin wrote:
jump pack. he has deepstrike

So because of war gear he is able to deep strike, however he can't assault the turn he deep strikes because the on target special rule is unable to be bestowed upon him. If on target said something along the lines of one model in the unit affect the rest like fearless does then this wouldn't be an issue, however as it is not the case he still can't assault.