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 Frozocrone wrote:
Its banned for being a super heavy flyer, one of the criterion for banning super heavies (that said I think one of the IOM SHF is allowed, unsure).

I agree with the fire stream nerf despite playing tau, there is nothing you can do the source of the free units when player unerfed.

Everything else is questionable.

Speaking of that http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/678956.page

The fact you can't stop it (baring interceptor) is powerful indeed.

But fact is, it takes way too long to fire up, the drones waste valuable turns moving up field due to backfield spawn zone, it's the ONLY spawn mechanic that isn't scoring and that it's highly reliant on having first turn (because if not,they either start off field wating for reserve roll, greatly diminishing the spawning, or start on field and risk getting nuked as they are made of paper)


It's good, its PROBABLY not overpowered though. Just good. Doubt it will make it to top 8 in big turnies.
Under the nerf though, it won't even see the table.

Preemptive nerfing with zero evidence, results or records is stupid, unprofessional, and harmful. It shouldn't be done.

You realise it didn't even got tested ONCE before the nerf? It's a knee jerk if I ever saw one. And streams straight from Reece's not even subtle tau hate (he tried to limit stormsurge to one per army at first. Despite an enite army of imp Knights being kosher. How us that "fair treatment"? Anyone even thinking too highly on the surge?)

Imperial Knights as an army suck though, it loses out on objectives. You keep putting a single element in isolation and saying "this is proof of x". It isn't.

Otherwise I could single out the Dreadknight as proof the Grey Knights are op.

I agree the Stormsurge thing was a kneejerk. But in his defense at that point it was just Game Workshop literally making rules to feth with the tourney scene. It had never been done before. But hey it ended well at least.

Character assassination violates the dakka code of conduct. It's not needed to make a point. Reece and company do their best and put on a good show. Without them the hobby withers and dies. Lastly, it's toy soldiers!

3 things to make Tau players happy:

1. Revisit the Tau Hunter contingent and give us the choice of the middle ground ( sharing buffs to only the primary target ) or the current ruling.

2. Vote on the GhostKeel countermeasures

3. Vote on the planted Stormsurge vs. tank shock

 BoomWolf wrote:
Tau isn't in a bad spot, even after the nerf. Bit they were unfair, unequal and unnecessary.
Tau has things that need to be fixed, both buffing and nerfing (at times on the same unit/mechanic you need one side buffed and another nerfed, for example broadside HYMP and HRR), but these were not the things that were modified, nor was it done correctly.

ITC ruling is "popular vote". This means popular armies get a built in edge over unpopular ones on ruling, and tau were hated even when they were bottom tier, they are simply disliked by a portion of the community due to thier different style.
IoM is a big faction with many players, even obvious ruling against it are unlikely to ever pass.
Orks were always popular, so they get slowed ruling in thier favor like the super cheap stompa that passed a while ago. They need to be better, but this isn't the way.



ITC is very anti-tau, and don't even try to hide it. During the votes on these many people on forums, this one included, outright said they don't even play ITC, but voted against tau just to feth them over because of simple hate.
The questions were not even worded as rules questions, but as "what would you like it to be". It's not clarifications or corrections, it's outright modified rules.
The only other such case I recall is ranged D weapons. And I'm still not convinced it was justified. Against most things a D and S10 are mechanically identical, and nobody flocked to wraith guard when they had S10 guns, while the knight is just as OP anyhow as that was never the thing that was broken in it, but it's endurance and GMC immunities.
And that wasn't limited to eldar. They took the biggest hit, but others have ranged D as well.

I agree with this, but the important bit is bolded. My biggest problem with the ITC polling was the bias. As said above, the question wasn't 'what is RaW', but rather 'how do you want to play it?'

If the ITC is going to nerf everything that comes out in the future to the extent of what they did to tau, why not restrict the tournaments to anything published before XX\XX\XXXX?

And a question: why the Tau hate? Tau only excel in shooting. They are nonexistent in the Psychic phase, and fold in the Assault phase. They don't excel in all phases like Eldar. They aren't generalists like Marines. They don't have the durability of Knights, etc. so why the hate?

 carldooley wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Tau isn't in a bad spot, even after the nerf. Bit they were unfair, unequal and unnecessary.
Tau has things that need to be fixed, both buffing and nerfing (at times on the same unit/mechanic you need one side buffed and another nerfed, for example broadside HYMP and HRR), but these were not the things that were modified, nor was it done correctly.

ITC ruling is "popular vote". This means popular armies get a built in edge over unpopular ones on ruling, and tau were hated even when they were bottom tier, they are simply disliked by a portion of the community due to thier different style.
IoM is a big faction with many players, even obvious ruling against it are unlikely to ever pass.
Orks were always popular, so they get slowed ruling in thier favor like the super cheap stompa that passed a while ago. They need to be better, but this isn't the way.



ITC is very anti-tau, and don't even try to hide it. During the votes on these many people on forums, this one included, outright said they don't even play ITC, but voted against tau just to feth them over because of simple hate.
The questions were not even worded as rules questions, but as "what would you like it to be". It's not clarifications or corrections, it's outright modified rules.
The only other such case I recall is ranged D weapons. And I'm still not convinced it was justified. Against most things a D and S10 are mechanically identical, and nobody flocked to wraith guard when they had S10 guns, while the knight is just as OP anyhow as that was never the thing that was broken in it, but it's endurance and GMC immunities.
And that wasn't limited to eldar. They took the biggest hit, but others have ranged D as well.

I agree with this, but the important bit is bolded. My biggest problem with the ITC polling was the bias. As said above, the question wasn't 'what is RaW', but rather 'how do you want to play it?'

If the ITC is going to nerf everything that comes out in the future to the extent of what they did to tau, why not restrict the tournaments to anything published before XX\XX\XXXX?

And a question: why the Tau hate? Tau only excel in shooting. They are nonexistent in the Psychic phase, and fold in the Assault phase. They don't excel in all phases like Eldar. They aren't generalists like Marines. They don't have the durability of Knights, etc. so why the hate?

Because they can basically play solo? It's the same reason Eldar get so much hate, because they can invalidate the movement phases (JSJ moves) and shoot you off the Table before you get to play.

I've literally seen games like this. Tau player goes first, shoots off half the opponent's army. "GG, wanna go again?"

If Assault wasn't so nerfed in this game, Tau and Eldar would have a harder time, but given this edition, Assault armies are basically hamstringed.

 jreilly89 wrote:
but given this edition, Assault armies are basically hamstringed.

so the hate for tau is because the edition is broken? that is like blowing the hell out of your neighbor when you are pissed at the UN! It happens, sure, but it isn't exactly fair.

 carldooley wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
but given this edition, Assault armies are basically hamstringed.

so the hate for tau is because the edition is broken? that is like blowing the hell out of your neighbor when you are pissed at the UN! It happens, sure, but it isn't exactly fair.

It's very frustrating that the part of the game they needed gimped got gimped.

Accourding to your statement Assault could be 10000 times better and still would not make any impakt in any game against Tau. Just because your units are dead before they hit in CC...

 _ghost_ wrote:
Accourding to your statement Assault could be 10000 times better and still would not make any impakt in any game against Tau. Just because your units are dead before they hit in CC...

If we could hide in Rhinos and assault out of them, that would change a lot. Just as example. If I could assault from deep strike, that would change a lot. So no, a few changes to assault rules makes things a lot different.

so... hiding in turn one and then walk in turn 2?

assault after deepstrike is bad.

You can counter shooting by good terrain and LoS and such... against a asssaulting deepstriker yyou cant do anything

 _ghost_ wrote:
so... hiding in turn one and then walk in turn 2?

assault after deepstrike is bad.

You can counter shooting by good terrain and LoS and such... against a asssaulting deepstriker yyou cant do anything

That's what I keep hearing, but it never seems to work out. Mostly because the good lists only need one turn of shooting to cripple you. The turn right before assault is usually the fatal one.

Assault after deepstrike is "bad" says the lists that are making mockeries of other lists. Maybe so, but the job of nail gets old after a while.

 _ghost_ wrote:
so... hiding in turn one and then walk in turn 2?

assault after deepstrike is bad.

You can counter shooting by good terrain and LoS and such... against a asssaulting deepstriker you cant do anything

Other than craploads of EWO with SMS, nope can't do anything.

I mean this in the nicest way possible:
You have no clue what you're talking about. I've been running the Shadowstrike Kill-Team(2-4 Scout Squads and 1-3 Vanguard Veteran Squads with on-demand Deep Strike, no scatter if within range of 2 Scout Squads, and Assault on the turn they arrive) pretty regularly against Tau, and I'm gonna tell you right now--it'd be great, if the other person wasn't paying 5 flippin' points for Interceptor on demand and they didn't already have a weapon(Smart Missile System) that Ignores Cover AND Ignores Line of Sight restrictions and they didn't get to Overwatch with basically their whole damn army.

 _ghost_ wrote:
so... hiding in turn one and then walk in turn 2?

assault after deepstrike is bad.

You can counter shooting by good terrain and LoS and such... against a asssaulting deepstriker yyou cant do anything

Apart from

bubble wrap critical stuff
interceptor
boosted overwatch to make assaulting scarier
etc

No, nothing can be done about it.

So Tau have answers.

What about Guard? Other SM? DE? Harlies? Corsairs? Even CWE?

At least the shooting units are simply overturned. Assault still matters, just only if they can't shoot you off the table. Assault from Deep strike makes everything but CC completely irrelevant.

For the triple SR formation, do you really need the DCs? Most of the units I saw in the top 10 would fold to an assault from a 10-man Tac squad.

Bharring wrote:
So Tau have answers.

What about Guard? Other SM? DE? Harlies? Corsairs? Even CWE?

At least the shooting units are simply overturned. Assault still matters, just only if they can't shoot you off the table. Assault from Deep strike makes everything but CC completely irrelevant.

For the triple SR formation, do you really need the DCs? Most of the units I saw in the top 10 would fold to an assault from a 10-man Tac squad.

The tacs can't assault because the flyers are zooming.

"Even CWE? "

They deserve every face beating they get.

So I bubblewrap my Falcons with Guardians.

What do I bubblewrap the Guardians with?

You DS Assault the Guardians, and plan to be in CC on my shooting phase, the assault the Falcons.

Guard, Orks, and Nids could do bubblewrap, but its not as easy for SM, CWE, GKs, etc.

You lose the guardians. Just like I lose my entire list to Eldar right after I set it up. I think players of these top lists are not used to taking casualties. But they sure are used to dishing them out.

When your solution can curbstomp the top dog, along with everything else, that doesn't fix the problem, it just moves it.

Bharring wrote:
When your solution can curbstomp the top dog, along with everything else, that doesn't fix the problem, it just moves it.

I'm not even seriously advocating assault from deep strike. But it would be very cathartic as this point. Since shooting lists basically have the inverse set up in place.

Bharring wrote:
So Tau have answers.

What about Guard? Other SM? DE? Harlies? Corsairs? Even CWE?

Guard, SM, CWE all have access to Psyker ICs. Psykers have access to a Blessing that allows them to have Counter-Attack and fire Overwatch at their full BS.

At least the shooting units are simply overturned. Assault still matters, just only if they can't shoot you off the table. Assault from Deep strike makes everything but CC completely irrelevant.

Oh please. Assault from Deep Strike still has to go through Overwatch, and given the number of formations/special rules that have been added to beef up Overwatch it's silly to suggest that the ability for Assault from Deep Strike will invalidate shooting.

For Tau, sure.

For most others, Overwatch is still on a 6+, unless you have +100ish points for a Psyker, and get the power you want, for each squad that is going to be assaulted.

Even a Tac squad assaulting a Guardian, DA, Guardsmen, Kalabite, Harlie, etc squad and suffering a *full BS* round of shooting will still win the assault, more often than not.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Oh yeah, tau hate on pre-codex late 5th was also a thing, not that it was even remotely playable back then other than gimmick trolling lists (aka kroot trump bike marines case)

In any case. We DO get unequal, and unfair treatment.

snip.....

Heck, tau are not even allowed the railshark, and it's 660 points for a single D shot (high accuracy, but single shot.) on a 12/12/10/6 jet. It's not even DECENT. it's just banned for no reason at all.

So what do you want affirmative action for Tau? The Tau's problem is it is not fun to play against. I know I played them for two editions. I got tried of seeing the demoralized look in my opponents eyes. Few people like to get punched in the dick for two hours. Even the most ardent Tau players know this on some level because I rarely see two Tau players face off.


All Ranged D is banned, not just you.

My gaming group has a TAC tau player and I struggled to win against him since 6th edition with my Angels. But over time as he learned my army and read forums on how to play his it went from uphill to... I'm not even sure what. With the newest edition of tau, I find that unless you (the tau player) choose to hold back or your (the tau opponent) has to list tailor. Tau has a close combat weakness in an edition that nerfed close combat. Furthermore it overcomes that weakness with overcompensation on it's strength (shooting). The entire army benefits from really good and cheap units./upgrades. Because of this it can shoot at insane twin linked, low ap, mass shots that ignore cover or Los and then jump out into LOS cover. Tau ignore deep strike, jinxing and night fighting. It ignores monstrous creatures and vehicles and ignores hordes and elite units because they have answers to all of these in spades. So what's left to counter a Tau list that is tailored to defeat everything. Let me know. I'm curious. Can you provide me with a list or unit /method for all the codexes that struggle

Not being able to assault turn 1 or assault from reserves is a killer.

Let's make it so armies can't shoot on player turn 1 or shoot after arriving from reserves...it's just the right thing to do.

I'd rather that than allow assaults from reserves.

(Small clarification - T1 Assaults are allowed, and do happen. Rarely top of 1, though.)

There is no need for affirmative action.
Regarding the ITC .. well ... a lil more honesty about their intends.
The claim to pref nerf things is just a dishonest thing. especialy when we look at all the other stuff thats around now (Gladius etc..) or the Eldar in general.

What happend to the Tau in the way it happened was just... **********

Regarding Deep Strike and assaulting. Seriiously? allowing this in general is a much bigger pain in the arse for everybody else than Tau. Tau get interceptor cheap. weh have a formation that allows us to set Markers during intercepting .... the better overwatch....

I still thing it is a bad idea to allwo deep strike and assault the very same turn for everybody.

 Inkubas wrote:
My gaming group has a TAC tau player and I struggled to win against him since 6th edition with my Angels. But over time as he learned my army and read forums on how to play his it went from uphill to... I'm not even sure what. With the newest edition of tau, I find that unless you (the tau player) choose to hold back or your (the tau opponent) has to list tailor. Tau has a close combat weakness in an edition that nerfed close combat. Furthermore it overcomes that weakness with overcompensation on it's strength (shooting). The entire army benefits from really good and cheap units./upgrades. Because of this it can shoot at insane twin linked, low ap, mass shots that ignore cover or Los and then jump out into LOS cover. Tau ignore deep strike, jinxing and night fighting. It ignores monstrous creatures and vehicles and ignores hordes and elite units because they have answers to all of these in spades. So what's left to counter a Tau list that is tailored to defeat everything. Let me know. I'm curious. Can you provide me with a list or unit /method for all the codexes that struggle

Again the pathetic BA argument?

BA doesn't work against ANYTHING.
It has nothing to do with tau being overwhelming, but to BA bring nonfunctional. Even in thier supposed niches they don't shine compared to other marines.


Tau has close combat in an edition where CC is not as powerful? True. But you don't NEED cc monsters to take out tau. Most shoot units are enough.
Overcompensating it's strength? So what do you want, equal shooting with inferior CC? If you give something up, you should get something in return, and tau gave up both CC and morak. And Tau are not the only shooty army out there.
Ignores LoS? For the umpteen time, the only tau guns ignoring LoS are the SMS and AFP, both of low S 4/5 and AP5. Marines can get such guns too. Guard gets far superior indirect fire. You got the tools, you refuse to use them.
Ignoring cover? So does everyone with psykers,and many units and upgrades across armies do naturally.
Twin linked? Ditto.
Jump back away? Yes. It's one of the few tau "things". Not only tau does it though, and most armied got things that are just faster.
Ignores deep strike? No. It has an answer to it, for a price. A price wasted if you didn't DS as its only relevant when you do. Fair Trade.

Ignores monsterus creatures, vehicles, hordes and elites because they got answers. Seriously? THEY CAN FIGHT? An army that doesn't have all these tools is unplayable! If every army didn't have at least an answer to every threat in its arsenal, the game would be reduced to rock paper scissors.



I don't know who to defeat a tau list tailored to defeat everything,because such list does not exist. CAN'T exist.
Tau lists CAN be tailored against any one thing, just like most armies. But not against everything at once.

Your fallacy nightmare schrodinger tau isn't real. Give me an actual tau list. Any tau list, and I'll find its weak spots within minutes - because I know the army well, strengths and weaknesses alike.

I agree that the weapons that don't need LoS aren't the issue. The issue is that the only need a couple Riptides and a marker light team to get a single turn of shooting off to cripple you.

I have never given the SMS systems a second thought. They can't put out enough wounds to matter, imo. It's all about IA and HYMP and maybe plasma crisis suits.

Obviously they should nerf Orks, Sisters of battle, Dark eldars and CSM. Man Taus are so ugly with their new toys like stormsurge ! I can t beleive ITC and GW did that to you... Im sorry guys play our codex you will understand why we never get nerfed