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If you just want to know how to beat it start reading slightly before the youtube clip!

This tactica is written to show players why the Firstream Wing formation is good but not broken, at the same time introduce a proposal for ITC that would make the formation even less powerful but, still strong and competitive because the other option makes it competitive only in the hands of a highly skill player.

First off this is what the Firestream wing does: 4 units of piranhas one must be a single Piranha. That single piranha has the ability to nominate a unit within 36 and his line of sight and the all the piranhas from the formation gets plus 1 bs on that unit and tank hunter if its a vehicle. The formation also has a rule called Rearm and Refuel, it allows a surviving model that is within 6 of a table edge at the end of their movement phase to enter ongoing reserves, when they return they come back at full strength with new drones and seeker missiles! This creates the possibility to create what people call the Drone Factory! Basically you drop off your drones you leave come back with more and you continue this process to overwhelm your opponent with gun drones! Sounds broken but its not I will explain why later!

Secondly piranhas did not become good because of this formation, two drones cost 28 points a piranha cost 40 points, that's right Tau has a vehicle that technically only cost 12 points! Its been Tau's best kept secret for years but now its out! The reason why people think it is amazing is that players are just now finding out that the vehicle only truly cost 12 points and the Firestream formation made this 12 point vehicle even better must be broken right? Do not fall victim to the internet OMG phase just because a unit is good doesn't mean it or its new formation has to be nerfed. You should only change things to stuff that is broken such as 2+ re-roll able saves.

Thirdly let me tell you the ITC's temporary ruling and how most tournaments adjusted the rules for the piranha formation. They have made it to were you cannot leave the same turn you come in. Which basically eliminates the drone factory because In a 5 turn game you only get to create 2 bonus drone units! My proposal is that you cannot leave turn 1, which allows you to generate 3 bonus drone units! In exchange of this extra drone unit the opposing player recieves several benefits that I will explain later.

Let's address the first mistake that most players make when they think about the Drone Factory, the first batch of drones. If your opponent did not use the formation and brought 5 piranhas you would have to deal with those 10 drones regardless. The first batch of drones is not a benefit of the formation, so keep that in mind I cannot stress that enough. So when you are determining if the formation is broken or not the first wave of drones should not be included into your thought process because the formation did not create those drones.

With my proposal the first bonus drones don't hit the field until turn 3! So turn 3 you get 140 free points worth of drones but you have to subtract 60 because if you do the math 12 ( true cost of a piranha) x 5 (number of piranhas) = 60 points so on turn 3 you are getting 80 free points on the field, next turn you have 220, if the game ends on turn five you have 360 points worth of bonus drones! Seems broken but compare that to other free points formations such as the war convocation where players are getting around 400 points of free upgrades this is not broken!

However, lets be honest is it wise to leave on turn 4 to get more drones when you can have 5 piranhas for objective grabbing? Making the best tactical move you would created 2 bonus units or 220 points worth of free drones. Another thing you must factor in is that with the other free point formations such as the war convocation get to use their free points from the start of the game were as with the Drone Factory you don't get any bonus drones until turn 3 under my proposal.

By making it where you cant leave till turn 2 the drone farm clock is set back one turn. A 5 vehicle squad that cost 200 points could create 30 bonus drones if the game ended on turn 5 that's 420 points so 220 free points! However you did not get to take advantage of all those points instantly like the gladius strike force or the war convocation its gradually built up meaning you have time to deal with them its not like you have to deal with a million drones turn one. It starts with bonus drones coming in turn 3 12 inches away from your opponents board edge when you factor in time and space its not broken at all.

The next thing you have to consider is that the piranhas are coming from ongoing reserves, the drones will be deployed a maximum of 12 inches from the board edge. With careful objective placement you can make it to where they cannot shoot at things on the objective the first time they come on. You can make it to were the bonus drones don't have a meaningful impact till turn 4!

The next thing you have to factor in when determining if the formation is broken is the usefulness of a gun drone. A gun drone has a bs of 2, a twin-linked 18 inch str 5 ap 5 pinning gun that means a unit of 10 is shooting 20 strength 5 shots, these bad boys can bring the pain. On average a large squad will get 10-12 str 5 hits however, what else can they do. They are non scoring units meaning they cannot claim or contest objectives. They are t 4 with a 4+ armor save so they are tough but with a ld of 7 ws of 2 and str 3 they suck in close combat like all Tau. Also with so many drones on the field it gives you a chance to multi-charge imagine charging 10 drones and a riptide! Winning combat by 3-4 because you killed the drones and forcing that riptide to take a leadership test on a 6 than running him down!

Now lets talk about the benefits of the Firestream and how it is a really good formation. First you can create an army of drones! Under my proposal you can create 30 bonus drones for 200 points. You can have drones bubble wrapping your Riptides and even your stormsurge. The main benefit of these drones is that they are disposable units that can be a pest to your opponent by forcing them to deal with them as they are not strong enough to devastate them but strong enough to matter.

Another benefit of the formation is the usage of seeker missiles. Under my proposal you will get 2 bonus volleys of seeker missiles on turns 3 and 5. A lot of players read Rearm and Refuel and think wow that's a lot of seeker missiles but its decieving because you cannot shoot your missiles and leave the table on the same turn, you have to stay for the shooting phase. Also just like the first patch of drones the first seeker missiles can not be consider a benefit of the formation as you would get those seeker missiles even if you had not taken the formation.

Lets List the Benefits of the Firestream Wing Formation under my proposal:

A 5 man squad can produce 3 bonus squads of drones that's 30 bonus drones.
You can get 20 bonus seeker missile!

But wait Kenpachi your forgetting that you can take 3 of those squads meaning you can get 90 bonus drones or 60 bonus seeker missiles. Don't forget you can take the drone network formation to boast their bs up to three! That's 60 str 5 shots coming in each turn for three turns isn't that broken, my response is this!




Now let me expose this formation, if they take 640 points worth of piranhas and a minimum of 256 points worth of drones for the drone network they have 954 points left in a 1850 point list or 1114 if they want to have just 2 piranha farming squads. A riptide wing with all of them buying early warning override, ion accelerator, and a stimulant injector cost 675 points that leaves 279 points to spend on things to grab objectives with because your army of drones can not do it. Also the drone network formation makes it to where you are getting 15 hits a turn compared to 11-12, that's not a significant change and if they are using the marker lights to boast the drones shooting attack instead of the riptides that means that most likely the riptides are dead!

You don't need riptides with that amount of strength 5 shots but it is deceiving you! First off the bonus drones will not hit the field until turn 3 so you don't get bonus strength 5 shots till turn 3! Also what about the piranhas burst cannon, you don't have to worry about them and their 20 str 5 shots. So in exchange for not shooting 20 strength 5 shots the Tau player is gaining a unit that can shoot 20 str 5 shots!



The last sentence that is in bold is huge and something that most players most likely have not considered with this formation. The piranha squad is constantly leaving the board thus the Tau player is losing 20 strength 5 shots each turn! So with that first bonus wave of drones, offensively speaking your Tau opponent hasn't gained anything if they leave the table to get more drones!

I will make a small chart demonstrating how it would work if a player is not allowed to leave the table turn 1 but can leave the turn he comes on, so you can see how unbroken this formation is!

First turn: Original drones are made seeker missiles are fired. No benefit from the formation is made because those missiles and drones were not created because of the formation.

Turn 2: The piranhas leave the table, the Tau player loses 20 strength 5 shots that he could have made. He has hurt himself because of the formation!

Turn 3 : Piranhas come on and create 10 drones than leave, the tau player gained 10 drones but lost 5 vehicles, in place of 2 rounds of shooting from the piranhas the player gets one round of shooting from the bonus drones. You cannot say the Tau player gained a unit because in reality he lost one also because the piranhas left the field!

Turn 4:Tau player gets another unit of drones! The bonus drones put out 40 shots but remember the Tau player lost one round of shooting in the second turn so the formation on turn 4 has created 1 extra unit and 20 shots!

Turn 5:The tau player gets its last unit of drones and get an extra 60 shots from the formation and the piranhas remain on the field and can potentially shoot also, so these shots are all bonus shots.

Conclusion the tau player gained 3 units and 80 str 5 shots over the course of the game and not all at one point!

Now I will make a chart demonstrating the possibilities with seeker missiles even though it is the exact same as the current ITC ruling!

Turn 1: Tau player fires 10 seeker missiles and produce 10 drones, but once more no gain is made because of the formation.

Turn 2: The piranhas leave the field and the tau player loses 20 strength 5 shots and 5 piranhas, he has hurt himself.

Turn 3: The Tau player fires 10 bonus seeker missiles and creates 10 bonus drones, both the seeker missiles and the 20 shots are considered bonuses!

Turn 4: The tau player leaves the field losing 20 shots but the drone unit he created during the previous turn will make 20 shots so nothing is lost or gained offensively speaking. The Tau player does not have his piranhas on the field meaning the opponent can choose to attack rather it be by shooting or assault the bonus drones, the thing that is claiming or contesting objectives, or their offensive units such as a riptide.

Turn 5: The tau player comes on and fires 10 seeker missiles and creates 10 more drones so you gain 20 more strength 5 shots assuming the target of the seeker missiles is not in range of burst cannons aswell!

So you get 20 extra seeker missiles and 60 extra strength five shots over the course of a game and not all at once is that broken to you?

The list is going to be small because they are taking alot of piranhas with seeker missiles! If you take out Tau's marker lights than you make their seeker missiles not as good. They basically become rhinos with a hunter killer missile except its bs 3 ! You have 3 turns to take out their marker lights before they get to use their first bonus volley! Also because you know not to shoot at the piranhas because they are leaving and you dont want to shoot the gun drones as there going to make more taking out the marker lights is the best option as it affects the seeker missiles and their entire army! Riptides without ignore cover is not scary! They only have 1210 points if they take the max how many marker lights can they bring if they want to bring Drone Factory, with a riptides or a stormsurge or ghostkeels the answer is not alot maybe one unit 2 if they go try hard! Whats going to claim the objectives, what happens if the marker light source is targeted instead of the piranhas and drones, exposed is what happens!


Now lets talk about the main reason why its not broken! The piranhas are fragile they will either die or choose to gain durability and lose their offensive power. With my proposal where the piranhas cannot leave first turn, a player gets an opportunity to shoot at the piranhas. If he goes first he gets 2 turns to kill the piranhas. They are open top, side armor 10, with 2 hull points. Imagine a scatter laser bike squad 81 points shooting at 2 piranhas with 4 seeker missiles 116 points. That's 2-3 hull points at a minimum without jink according to averages but, lets be honest what happens to a rhino when its targeted by a scatbike squad now imagine if that rhino had 1 less hull point and could potentially die to a single penetrating hit because its open top!

Do you know that on average 5 rapid fire bolters takes away at least one hull point if you luck up and roll 2 sixes than you can kill a piranha, that is very important! The reason why its important is that when a vehicle jinks its seeker missiles become useless as they fire at bs 1 even if they are using marker lights according to the ITC faq! So whenever the piranha decides to gain durability it loses its seeker missiles usage!

So lets go back to our scatbike scenario you shoot at his 2 vehicle squad the Tau player has a choice potentially die or lose out on my seeker missiles for this turn! The crazy part is they can jink and still die! So the little squads are in serious danger of dying if they don't jink so as seeker missile carriers they are not that good, mediocre at best. Now combine that with the fact that you can not leave turn one small units are really vulnerable and cannot be good seeker sources.

What about the large squads? If the scatbike squad shot at a 280 point 5 man piranha squad with seeker missiles the Tau player still faces the same problems except he is not as concern about dying so he might not jink the first round. When he loses 1 or 2 vehicles the next scatbike squad he will most likely jink thus losing out on his seeker missiles and because of the destroyed vehicles he has less drones!

So the idea that the Firestream piranhas can run around not worrying about being damaged, creating drones, firing seeker missiles, and claiming objectives with impunity, is all a mirage and internet hype! If shot at they will die or they will jink and lose seeker missile power if they move out on to an objective their side armor of 10 is exposed. Is it good yes broken absolutely not just a bunch of hype and internet OMG!


Now lets compare a drone factory to a space marine gladius strike force, here is one that will be played at LVO.


Khan
Chaplain w/ Bike, Asupex
Command squad w/ all melta, pod

Tactical Squad w/ grav, combi grav, rhino
Tactical Squad w/ grav, combi grav, rhino
Tactical Squad w/ grav, combi grav, rhino
Tactical Squad w/ multi-melta, melta gun, combi melta, pod
Tactical Squad w/ multi-melta, melta gun, combi melta, pod
Tactical Squad w/ multi-melta, melta gun, combi melta, pod

Bike Squad w/ 2x grav
Bike Squad w/ 2x grav

Dev squad w/ 2x grav, rhino
Dev squad w/ 2x grav, rhino


10th company

Scouts
Scouts
Scouts

That's 315 points worth of free transports but there is a difference. This list starts with 245 points worth of free points on the board turn one (drop pods are not on the field yet)! The piranha formation will not be able to get a bonus drone until turn 3 with my proposal! This player has 2 entire turns to take advantage of his free 245 points! The firestream first wave of drones gives him a bonus of 80 points on turn 3 those bonus points are restricted to what they can do because they are 12 inches from the deployment board edge. On turn 4 the Tau player has 220 vs 315 on turn 5 he has 360 vs 315!

Thats just one unit you can potentially use 3 of these units! Thats 600 points worth of piranhas to create a drone factory! You are not dealing with 600 points because they are leaving the turn they come on! The bonus drones dont hit the field until turn 3 with my proposal, turn 3 they get 420 points worth of drones but they lose 600 points worth of vehicles! They get 820 points worth of drones turn 4 but they lose 600 points so on turn 4 they have 220 free points vs 315 free objective secured transports! Turn 5 they get way more points but the game is over at that point!

Imagine a 1250 point list vs army until turn 3! Can this list kill a riptide wing by turn three? The drones start coming on turn 3 I think this list can handle that easily!

Remember what I said about rapid fire bolters imagine the tau player setting up and hiding a single piranha that has 2 seeker missiles. Now imagine this marine player using infiltrate on his scouts to get in range and shoot at that side armor of that piranha does the tau player jink or not! What if he has a large squad of piranhas will he use the riptide wing interceptor rule to kill the melta-guns and save the piranhas or save it for all that grav that is in his face!

I hope this helps people understand that if it is stays as is it is an okay formation that will be not be used in a few months. If you make it to where they cant leave on the first turn but can leave the turn they come on it becomes good and people will use it more often. It will introduce a new competitive list to the tournament scene. It will not be an auto win or broken with my proposal.

Kenpachi

Your proposel really only maximizes Seeker usage, rather than Drone spawning. If you drop the Drones on turn 1 and leave, return turn 2 to drop Drones and fire Seekers, leave turn 3, return turn 4 to drop Drones and fire Seekers, you still have the same three waves of Drones, just one less volley of Seekers.

Ironically, the ITC "nerf" just encourages 3 volleys of Seekers over 2 extra waves of Drones, which means more damage can be done over the course of the game. One tactic not mentioned is you can dop off turn 1, half rearm turn 2 while the other half fire Seekers, repeat on turn 3, repeat on turn 4, repeat on turn 5. Nets you 96 Drones and 64 Seekers over 5 turns, to same as if you fire all seekers turns 2 and 4. Your proposel still nets 96 Drones, but also 96 Seekers.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Your proposel really only maximizes Seeker usage, rather than Drone spawning. If you drop the Drones on turn 1 and leave, return turn 2 to drop Drones and fire Seekers, leave turn 3, return turn 4 to drop Drones and fire Seekers, you still have the same three waves of Drones, just one less volley of Seekers.

But you cant leave on turn 1 that's my proposal, so you cannot get the same 3 waves!

 CKO wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Your proposel really only maximizes Seeker usage, rather than Drone spawning. If you drop the Drones on turn 1 and leave, return turn 2 to drop Drones and fire Seekers, leave turn 3, return turn 4 to drop Drones and fire Seekers, you still have the same three waves of Drones, just one less volley of Seekers.

But you cant leave on turn 1 that's my proposal, so you cannot get the same 3 waves!

Why not? They start on the table, Drones are dropped like passengers, and they can leave at the end of the same movement phase. ITC is only blocking thrm from leaving the same turn they arrive.

SJ

I am not sure you read the article, lol! Currently the way the rules is set up you can leave the table turn 1 you just cant leave the same turn you come on. I am proposing that you can leave the turn you come on but you cannot leave on the first game turn as in turn 1.

Love your signature by the way.

 CKO wrote:
I am not sure you read the article, lol! Currently the way the rules is set up you can leave the table turn 1 you just cant leave the same turn you come on. I am proposing that you can leave the turn you come on but you cannot leave on the first game turn as in turn 1.

Love your signature by the way.

Thanks! I read the whole article, and pointed out that your proposel does not maximize Drone spawning, it in fact maximizes Seeker volleys.

SJ

Yes you are correct the best way to use the formation is seeker missile farming but, I pointed out the flaws of that also!

 CKO wrote:
Do you know that on average 5 rapid fire bolters takes away at least one hull point if you luck up and roll 2 sixes than you can kill a piranha, that is very important! The reason why its important is that when a vehicle jinks its seeker missiles become useless as they fire at bs 1 even if they are using marker lights according to the ITC faq! So whenever the piranha decides to gain durability it loses its seeker missiles usage!

So lets go back to our scatbike scenario you shoot at his 2 vehicle squad the Tau player has a choice potentially die or lose out on my seeker missiles for this turn! The crazy part is they can jink and still die! So the little squads are in serious danger of dying if they don't jink so as seeker missile carriers they are not that good, mediocre at best. Now combine that with the fact that you can not leave turn one small units are really vulnerable and cannot be good seeker sources.

What about the large squads? If the scatbike squad shot at a 280 point 5 man piranha squad with seeker missiles the Tau player still faces the same problems except he is not as concern about dying so he might not jink the first round. When he loses 1 or 2 vehicles the next scatbike squad he will most likely jink thus losing out on his seeker missiles and because of the destroyed vehicles he has less drones!

Seeker Missiles are BS5 when you expend Marklights to guide them. Also, if your Piranha are 6" from the table edge, and bubble wrapped by shoals of Gun Drones, why are they jinking? Not all of them are jinking, if any. Who cares if you lose 4 out of 5 Piranha per squadron, when 1 will respawn all 5.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Seeker Missiles are BS5 when you expend Marklights to guide them. Also, if your Piranha are 6" from the table edge, and bubble wrapped by shoals of Gun Drones, why are they jinking? Not all of them are jinking, if any. Who cares if you lose 4 out of 5 Piranha per squadron, when 1 will respawn all 5.

SJ

If you are going first you get to fire your seeker missiles without risk regardless, but if you are going second there are no gun drones on the field as they haven't had a turn to get out yet. If you have marker drones from the drone network formation protecting them. than I will shoot at the drones to eliminate your marker light source thus making your entire army less effective! This theoretical game that we are playing can last all night do you think with my modifications the formation is broken?

Kenpachi

I have no idea what you just asked. Can you restate?

SJ

Currently you can not leave the turn you come on!

I propose that you can not leave on the 1st turn but during later turns you are allowed to leave the same turn you come on.

Do you think the formation would be broken with my proposal?

 CKO wrote:
Currently you can not leave the turn you come on!

I propose that you can not leave on the 1st turn but during later turns you are allowed to leave the same turn you come on.

Do you think the formation would be broken with my proposal?

Yes. The biggest problem with the formation is that there is litereally no way to stop it since its never on the table except during the enemy movement phase when nothing can attack it. With your proposal the only way to stop it is to completely kill every piranha in a single turn

The drones cost 12 pts(pg 56 of the kauyon book), not 14 as in the OP; Thus making the piranha itself cost 16 pts, very efficient for a 2 HP, open top, base burst cannon vehicle, not to mention it is 11 10 10, making it impervious against bolter fire from the front.

I propose that in order to rearm and refit, the piranhas have to be 6" from the opposite board edge it start from at the end of the tau shooting turn. Making the piranhas run the gauntlet.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 CKO wrote:
Currently you can not leave the turn you come on!

I propose that you can not leave on the 1st turn but during later turns you are allowed to leave the same turn you come on.

Do you think the formation would be broken with my proposal?

Yes. The biggest problem with the formation is that there is litereally no way to stop it since its never on the table except during the enemy movement phase when nothing can attack it. With your proposal the only way to stop it is to completely kill every piranha in a single turn

You get one turn to attack them, two if you go first and yes, after that they have the option to make it to where you cant do anything to them but they are not doing anything to you but creating drones! Meaning they are not claiming objectives, firing 20 str 5 shots, or their seeker missiles! So they gain a drone squad but lose a piranha squad if they leave the table, I will show the chart that is in the article to explain!

First turn: Original drones are made seeker missiles are fired. No benefit from the formation is made because those missiles and drones were not created because of the formation.

Turn 2: The piranhas leave the table, the Tau player loses 20 strength 5 shots that he could have made. He has hurt himself because of the formation!

Turn 3 : Piranhas come on and create 10 drones than leave, the tau player gained 10 drones but lost 5 vehicles, in place of 2 rounds of shooting from the piranhas the player gets one round of shooting from the bonus drones. You cannot say the Tau player gained a unit because in reality he lost one also because the piranhas left the field!

Turn 4:Tau player gets another unit of drones! The bonus drones put out 40 shots but remember the Tau player lost one round of shooting in the second turn so the formation on turn 4 has created 1 extra unit and 20 shots!

Turn 5:The tau player gets its last unit of drones and get an extra 60 shots from the formation and the piranhas remain on the field and can potentially shoot also, so these shots are all bonus shots.

If they are leaving the field the same turn they come on than they are losing out on a lot also! Seeker missiles, burst cannons, objective grabbing are all things they lose if they leave the turn they come on, if a player where to play the formation they will realize they rather the piranhas leave than stay!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Big Mac wrote:
The drones cost 12 pts(pg 56 of the kauyon book), not 14 as in the OP; Thus making the piranha itself cost 16 pts, very efficient for a 2 HP, open top, base burst cannon vehicle, not to mention it is 11 10 10, making it impervious against bolter fire from the front.

I propose that in order to rearm and refit, the piranhas have to be 6" from the opposite board edge it start from at the end of the tau shooting turn. Making the piranhas run the gauntlet.

Drones for upgrades in a Suit squads cost 12 points but drones acting by themselves as a unit cost 14 and I use the 14 point version because you are creating a unit that is not attached to a suit of some sort.

Hey these drones look tough, if only there were units that ignores S5 shooting

Point being there is always an answer in the wide variety of 40k armies to handle stuff like this, so its definetly not broken unless one start nerfing things left and right.

It's not the number of drones they produce that bothers me, it's the inability many armies have to even target them. Even making them stay out turn one wouldn't help most armies because they're going to be able to get some of them out of LOS and a single survivor would bring the whole unit back. Armies like Khorne Daemonkin couldn't threaten them at all.

Honestly, I'd rather just let them rearm/reequip but have to stay on the table within 6' of the edge. That way you don't need interceptor to stop them.

 CKO wrote:
Currently you can not leave the turn you come on!

Where is it that you think it says the Piranha Firestream Wing cannot leave on the first turn?

SJ

Yeah i dont understand where hes getting they cant leave turn 1 thing from. Nothing says that far as i know, and hes never listed a page number or FAQ stating it.

If youre going for a seeker farm though, yeah dont leave turn 1. The 32 seekermissiles every other turn will probably do more damage than the gun drones, they just cost an arm and a leg and wont block off anything (were talking 896pts for all 16 piranhas to have 2 seekers and no other upgrades...ouch)

At any rate, you didnt come on to the board turn one. You deployed, thats not entering the board via reserves.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 CKO wrote:
Currently you can not leave the turn you come on!

Where is it that you think it says the Piranha Firestream Wing cannot leave on the first turn?

SJ

They currently can leave first turn!

You know how FLG make adjustments to rules, I am making a proposal to where you can not leave on the first turn.

NOT LEAVING FIRST TURN IS MY PROPOSAL?

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Yeah i dont understand where hes getting they cant leave turn 1 thing from. Nothing says that far as i know, and hes never listed a page number or FAQ stating it.

If youre going for a seeker farm though, yeah dont leave turn 1. The 32 seekermissiles every other turn will probably do more damage than the gun drones, they just cost an arm and a leg and wont block off anything (were talking 896pts for all 16 piranhas to have 2 seekers and no other upgrades...ouch)

At any rate, you didnt come on to the board turn one. You deployed, thats not entering the board via reserves.

Its a proposal, not the way it currently works, I have said this several times! I do not believe you guys have read the article!

At any rate best case scenario you go first and fire your seeker missiles, than your piranhas can jink and only one have to survive and you leave and come back turn 3 with new seeker missiles you only gain 2 bonus volleys of the seeker missiles assuming game ends on turn 5. If your opponent is smart he will target the marker light sources thus eliminating the usefulness of the seeker missiles and because you have the knowledge of knowing that he is going to leave the table next turn there is no need to waste any fire power at them.

Basically your shooting phase become easier because you know what to shoot at, you take out the marker light source, riptides, or the things he will use to claim objectives with as the piranhas cant as they cant make it to the objective and shoot and the drones are non scoring units.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
It's not the number of drones they produce that bothers me, it's the inability many armies have to even target them. Even making them stay out turn one wouldn't help most armies because they're going to be able to get some of them out of LOS and a single survivor would bring the whole unit back. Armies like Khorne Daemonkin couldn't threaten them at all.

If a single piranha is left that piranha will produce 2 drones and fire 2 seeker missiles thats assuming his unit did not jink! Remember if you jink units fire bs 1 seeker missiles even if they use the marker light rule according to ITC FAQ. Also is it wise to shoot at the unit you know is going to leave the board? It would be better to take out the limited number of other units he has on the field such as the marker light source, you take out the marker lights than those seeker missiles are not as useful. The thing is if they take advantage of this weak not being targeted rule all they are doing is creating drones. That means no seeker missiles, no burst cannon shots, no fast skimmer grabbing objectives!

So they gain a 10 man drone squad that can shoot 20 strength 5 shots. They lose 5 piranhas that could shoot 20 strength 5 shots, seeker missiles, and a fast skimmer that can grab objectives! You cant kill them but they cant hurt you the drones they created can but lets be honest the 5 piranhas would have been alot worse to deal with!

So in conclusion not being able to kill them is a trade off that is in your advantage!

 lessthanjeff wrote:
Honestly, I'd rather just let them rearm/reequip but have to stay on the table within 6' of the edge. That way you don't need interceptor to stop them.

How are they hurting you if they are not there? You dont even see them I wouldnt even move the models I would just deploy 10 drones 12 inches from my board edge! The best option is to stay on the field! By forcing us to stay we use their burst cannons and the seeker missiles and we gain 20 str 5 shots from the drones! Wouldnt you rather see us decide to just create the drones?

You are considering them only in a vacuum. 640 points of Piranha Wing is just 640 points of a much larger army. You can take one and a Drone-Net for 864 points, with room lelf for a Ret Cadre or OSC. With an OSC between you and the Piranha, what's target priority? You are also making an assumption that there is a common army build that can kill 5-16 Piranha turn 1.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
You are considering them only in a vacuum. 640 points of Piranha Wing is just 640 points of a much larger army. You can take one and a Drone-Net for 864 points, with room lelf for a Ret Cadre or OSC. With an OSC between you and the Piranha, what's target priority? You are also making an assumption that there is a common army build that can kill 5-16 Piranha turn 1.

SJ

SJ, I give very detail reasons why something is not as good and you often respond with post like this, that do not give any details but random statements such as you can take a Ret Cadre or OSC, you need to be more tactical than this!

So let me give another detail post that proves my point!

A bare bones Ret Cadre is 396 points combine that with your 864 points thats 1260 points. You have 590 points left to buy weapons and support systems for the 3 single suits, commander, a riptide, and a single broadside! Lets say your conservative with your upgrade and only spend 120 points, you have 470 left!

You have not even bought seeker missiles for the piranhas! Are you going to do that? Lets say you get 5 seeker missiles on each large squad squad thats another 120 points! You now have 350 points left! Lets say you get the Optimized stealth cadre formation it cost 310 points and thats for one ghostkeel! So you spend the last 40 ponts on getting fusion blasters and support systems.

Retaliation Cadre
Commander
Crisis Suit
Crisis Suit
Crisis Suit
Broadside
Riptide

Firestream Formation
Piranha
5xPiranhas 5 seeker missiles
5xPiranhas 5 seeker missiles
5xPiranhas 5 seeker missiles

Drone Network
4xMarker Drones
4xMarker Drones
4xMarker Drones
4xMarker Drones

Optimised Stealth Cadre
1xGhostkell
3xStealth Suit
3xStealth Suit



Your army 1850 army consist of 1 commander, 3 one man crisis suits, 1 broadside, 1 riptide, 2 stealth suit teams, a ghostkeel, 4x 4 man marker drone units, 1 piranha, 3 5 vehicle piranha squads with seeker missiles!

Whats going to claim objectives? The commander is going to be with a marker drone squad handing out bs 5 so he cant claim objectives. The 3 crisis suits have 2 wounds at t4 with a 3+ save a round of bolters rapid firing at them will take them off an objective. The stealth suits are toughness 3, if in cover they have a 2+ but if you charge them with a tactical squad they are dead! You have one ghostkeel that is a good objective grabber! A relentless broadside and a riptide but they are going to do the killing! You have 3 4 man marker drone squads that cant claim objectives and you need them for marker lights!

This list on average if you assume all 4 marker lights hit from the commander squad will on average have 12 marker light hits, You have 15 seeker missiles and a riptide that needs ignore cove you only have 12 marker light hits, see the problem? Now factor in how easy it is to kill a 4 man drone squad your marker lights are going to be diminishing quickly! Than your seeker missiles become one use bs 3 missiles!

Your army of drones which come in gradually over time will not be able to win the game as your opponent can eliminate the important stuff before you get a chance to kill him and whats worse whats going to kill him! A single riptide cant kill an entire army, 15 seeker missiles when you only have 12 marker light hits cant do enough damage to cripple an army in the first turn. 4 str 7 shots from the broadside or a hand ful of plasma shots from crisis suits cant criple an army! A riptide becomes a large blast ap 2 shot that you get cover against! The ghostkeel is putting out 6 strength 7 bs 4 shots.

Lets be honest the formation is mediocre in the hands of a good player it can become good but nothing worthy of being made useless by the ITC! It might need to be altered because the average player will have problems with it, which is why my proposal makes it even weaker!

I dont care about all those str 5 shots if i have an objective secured drop pod on an objective! And I have already killed all the stuff that can kill it!

Objectives only matter in Maelstrom and VP missions.

You can take a full PFW with Seekers, two Markerlight Drone-Nets, and a Ghostkeel Wing for 1850, tweaked to play ITC. You win by tabling your opponent. Let the Ghostkeels camp objectives wrapped in shoals of Gun Drones while the Marker-Nets guide Seekers every odd turn. Remember, ITC prefers tall, line of sight blocking terrain, something guided Seekers are meant for.

As to general suggestions, its not my goal to think for people, its my goal to provoke people to think for themselves. I can write a detaild white paper on the subject of this thread, but that only prove I understand the subject. It in no way proves if you or others understand.

SJ

There really isn't a need to nerf the formation at all, not even the ITC nerf is required.
Sure, when it first came out, it created a massive buzz, but it didn't take long to sink in that the drone factory isn't all that great.


Just to make my point, let's look at a full drone factory of 16 piranhas, and a 6 turn game for simplicity sake.
The format took 640 points to field.
Turn one you deploy your original drones, somewhere along the table edges, 32 drones.
Turn 2, you drop additional 32 drones, however due to disembark limitations, and need to leave the table, the drones don't go far. As they cannot score, rushing to the front lines is the only use. It will take at least one more turn before they get anywhere useful, unless you got hit by drop pods.
Turns 3 and 4 are more of the same.
Turn 5 drones are unlikely to reach firing range unless you are getting swarmed.
Turn 6 might as well not exist, you didn't leave the table turn 5 as turn 6 drones won't do anything.


So overall, the number of meaningful drones is about 128. still a lot, but not quite as much.
If said drones were bought for original 14 points, that would have been amazing 1984 points when you count the piranha hulls too.
HOWEVER, nobody takes 14 points gun drone squads. Even 12 point attachment gun drones are rarely taken. They are not worth that much. After all dual BC crisis costs 42, is also a rare pick, and fires almost as good as four gun drones-while scoring. Heck, even within the amazing drone network people still have doubts about gun drones.

Given a more rational estimate of 11 points of actual Worth, and piranhas worth 40 still despite it, you actually have 1696 points worth, but many of it only comes into play or reaches actual firing ranges rather late.,after half the game has ended. So it's safe to say they are, on average, doing 50% work compared to list taken units, given that we all know just how important the first two turns are, we have 848 actual points worth.

Still a mark up compared to piranhas, but piranhas are not a common pick to begin with Sue to their gimmicky nature. They got some value but they don't "carry" a list as heavy duty units like most battlesuits do. And they can only provide help against a small subset of units - things "soft" enough to be harmed by S5Ap5 spam, and slow enough to get hammered by 18 range, while themselves having short range that makes them advance towards your field. Therefore, mostly horde type units, or dropped marines. And dropped marines hit hard enough on T1 that relying on a small initial force and constant reinforcements may very well mean your main force gets decimated,so it's not a good answer to them.

Tl;dr-the drone factory fails from the same reason summon spam fails, the payoff takes too long for it to have a big impact despite the raw numbers. And unlike summoning, it does not enjoy the flexibility of choosing your reinforcements-you are stuck with a spesific unit that might not even be relevant-and a large point pool spent towards units that does not provide any measure of assistance against the big threats out there, only horde control. Hordes are AFAIK, not the biggest concern these days.

Drones can jet move(2D6 I believe in 7th) after shooting, so they can be quite fast, with the Drone net formation, the +1 BS on a TL gun can be deadly. Not to mention overall T4 and I4 stats of the drones, do not count against VP when killed.

 Big Mac wrote:
Drones can jet move(2D6 I believe in 7th) after shooting, so they can be quite fast, with the Drone net formation, the +1 BS on a TL gun can be deadly. Not to mention overall T4 and I4 stats of the drones, do not count against VP when killed.

20 bs 2 twin-linked shots on average is 10-12 hits with the upgrade its 15 hits that's not a significant upgrade!

The jet pack move doesn't mean they get to target the thing you want the turn they get on the board! Turn 4 will be the first turn that they can shoot at the important stuff! Meaning you get a chance to hit them first if you are concerned about the gun drones!

They are ld 7 so they run away often!

You non-tau players are worried about the wrong stuff! We got a formation that allows riptides to fire twice for one turn! Potentially crippling your army before you even get to move! But instead of worrying about that you are worried about gun drones!

Your argument fails. How can spawn Drones not encounter enemy units until turn 4 while at the same time enemy units can target Piranha on turn 1? Based on Piranha beginning 6" from the table edge, turn 1 spawned Drones can hit enemy units at edge of the enemy deloyment zone, and then move 2d6" closer during the Assault phase. That places 32 spawned Drones in the enemy deployment zone at the start of turn 2 while 32 more Drones are spawned. That's super fast infantry, and with the Drone-Net, that's effectively Jump Pack Firewarriors.

Of course, who can't kill Firewarriors?

The Drone Factory just applies Tau Efficiency to a spawning list, with all the inherent pros and cons. What the ITC ruling does is shift 64 free Drones into 96 Seeker Missiles.

SJ

Not that the seekers are all that amazing either.
Even when respawning, its basically just krak missile.

56 points of double krak missile shooters, is nice-but not broken.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Your argument fails. How can spawn Drones not encounter enemy units until turn 4 while at the same time enemy units can target Piranha on turn 1? Based on Piranha beginning 6" from the table edge, turn 1 spawned Drones can hit enemy units at edge of the enemy deloyment zone, and then move 2d6" closer during the Assault phase. That places 32 spawned Drones in the enemy deployment zone at the start of turn 2 while 32 more Drones are spawned. That's super fast infantry, and with the Drone-Net, that's effectively Jump Pack Firewarriors.

Of course, who can't kill Firewarriors?

The Drone Factory just applies Tau Efficiency to a spawning list, with all the inherent pros and cons. What the ITC ruling does is shift 64 free Drones into 96 Seeker Missiles.

SJ

Your arguement fails because the formation did not give piranhas the ability to do the things you just said. If you bought piranhans without the formation you could do those things you presented. To determine if a formation is good you have to judge the command benefits! I dont understand why I have to tell you this, the riptide wing isnt good because it has riptides its good because it gives those riptides the ability to fire twice! The firestream formation should not be judge broken because of what the piranhas can do it should be judge based off of what piranhas can do after they have come back with new drones, seeker missiles, and possibly replinished piranhas!

Your first 4 post you did not understand my proposal, now you do not understand the difference between having a unit and benefiting from a command benefit from a formation and you say that my arguement fails when you do not understand the basics. My article is already extremely long I would hope that some things like this I would not have to say.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Not that the seekers are all that amazing either.
Even when respawning, its basically just krak missile.

56 points of double krak missile shooters, is nice-but not broken.

A one use Bs 3 krak missiles who is afraid of that?

TL;DR: "Here's a bunch of strategy and argument about how a formation works under my personal house rules, which have nothing at all to do with the rules published by GW".

 Peregrine wrote:
TL;DR: "Here's a bunch of strategy and argument about how a formation works under my personal house rules, which have nothing at all to do with the rules published by GW".

That's fair but, the article still lets you know the weakness of the formation. The only reason why its like this is because the ITC made a custom rule that I had to respond to. I am frustrated with Tau's treatment everything got nerfed before I could use it, but in reality I don't have a single model just the codex, I am really a marine player! My criticism is not based off of the fact that they made my stuff not as good I am doing this because its just not right! I want to use Tau but ITC has to leave the rules alone before I spend money! Your right its personal house rules but that's what apparently 40k has become and I want to win tournaments again and I am not going to do that if stuff like this is voted on and the public don't have a true understanding of the formation.

So in conclusion this entire article is made to impact future votes that will determine if I play Tau! That is why I put so much effort into personal house rules, quite frustrating actually!

It would be so much easier if they would let people play and after some time players want to change something that is broken we vote on it! But instead they change stuff off of theories and a few games! So I have to play this theory craft game to impact the votes!