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 Xenomancers wrote:

X078 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

X078 wrote:
Put it to work, win competitive tournaments, post results then we can talk.

With the ITC nerf it is no longer competitive. The unit ramp really requires 3-4 turns of spawning to become broken. I mean were talking about the difference 320 points of free drones per turn. Turn 1 You already paid for those drones - turn 2 you get marginal return on investment but really can't utilize the piranhas so you are just breaking even . Turn 3 is where you start getting real free stuff. Turn 4 is where it gets real ugly and theres almost no way you aren't overwhelming the enemy at this point and even if you were behind on objectives - the enemy should have very little left to score with at this point and you can start getting absurd objective bonuses like controlling every objective on the board because they have no units left.

This is kind of the point. We have yet to see a Tau Army with the Piranha formation dominate or win any kind of tournament. Preemptively nerfing it based on theoretical scenarios is just silly.

It's called foresight. I didn't need to see invisibility in action before I knew it was extremely broken. Simple math tells us that.

Big difference between allowing your 1000 point death star to be only snap shot at for the entire game, to having a unit make BS2, T4 drones (which, btw, is no different than demon summoning)

Indeed, we have many units, spells and tricks to generate multiple units over time, none of them dominating any tornaments.

Being easy to field and spawning a lot of points-how about tervigons? spawning 40ish points every turn (so matching firestorm, a trio will cost close, and spawn 120ish a turn) on psykers with an MC body that are ready to go get stuff done-so they are not a "spawn tax" alone. Where did you last see these guys in a serious list? and they spawn on the front lines, not the rear, and the spawned units score. yet nobody cares for them, as their spawning just isn't good enough.

The nid endless swarm formation (something along these lines) and skyswarm also arn't seen very often. 50% to respawn gaunts or gargolyes with all attached upgrades-possibly hundrends of points in each respawn. also-scoring.

The demons summoning-not dominating anything, just taken as utility in existing demon lists. everyone acknowledge its good, nobody is overly afraid of it.

Renegades Unending host-the outright biggest auto-spawner around, not seen in any competition. that thing has a 5/6 chance to respawn any infantry unit numbering 15 or more-basically everything you take. and they come out in outflank. with all special guns and upgrades. and its still scores, and if it was stoops still ObSec.
Practically speaking, over 6 turns it has an average respawn potential of three times again your entire list (assuming you take heavy casualties), or "just" you entire list again assuming the enemy fails at killing you despite you being utterly reckless and throwing troops at his without doing anything for their survival in all out offensive-nobody even cares, its not considered a threat.



As for Gladius not generating the same points of free stuff-that's a fallacy. the fact the drones COST more than the transports means not they are WORTH more.
A razorback is worth much more than it's cost in drones even before taking into account its Obsec under the Gladius.
It may take a bit more effort to fit them in, but the units within the gladius itself are not there only to bring in the razors-its a BIG force, of ObSec units of multiple types, able to be geared up to pretty much every job-and it can generate 10 razorbacks, who are 550 points on their own right, to start on the table turn 1.
The factory only generates its first 384 batch at turn 2. and only by turn 3 it bypasses the Gladius in the costs spawned-but I will still say, not in the VALUE created. these 10 razors came earlier, acted earlier (they will probably have T1 targets, considering 36" guns), could serve as mobile bunkers for infantry, are Obsec with rhino bodies-they did MORE.




Nobody is saying the firestorm is bad, or that it isn't even pretty darn powerful.
But broken? far from it. it doesn't do anything other armies don't already do more either with more raw points efficiency, more tactical choice, or both.
And under the kneejerk nerf-not worth taking.
There are many, MANY formations out there, in tau, necron, marines, etc who are far more powerful. none got this preemptive nerf treatment.
And the worst thing in preemptive nerf-you can't really reverse it, as you will NEVER know if its actually broken or not. you got no actual experience or results on how powerful the unshackled variation is as its not allowed, and no results on how poor the shackled version is as nobody bothers taking it.

 BoomWolf wrote:
There are many, MANY formations out there, in tau, necron, marines, etc who are far more powerful. none got this preemptive nerf treatment.And the worst thing in preemptive nerf-you can't really reverse it, as you will NEVER know if its actually broken or not. you got no actual experience or results on how powerful the unshackled variation is as its not allowed, and no results on how poor the shackled version is as nobody bothers taking it.

Wow, can I use this statement as it is so true!

People who do not know the game aswell are scared easily. When you actually know the game you will be able to recognize that something isn't as strong as it sounds. People are taking advantage of the ones who don't know the game as well to gain a competitive advantage at tournaments! The more I research the ITC voting the more I see corruption! It is not done intentionally but it is done nonetheless so I am going to become ITC biggest critic to help voters make the right decision when it comes time to vote.

All of the hasty Tau nerf decisions need to be revisited.

I don't even play Tau. It's just plain wrong to nerf before a solid round of testing.

notredameguy10 wrote:


Big difference between allowing your 1000 point death star to be only snap shot at for the entire game, to having a unit make BS2, T4 drones (which, btw, is no different than demon summoning)

There's a big difference in the demon summoning comparison to the drone creation one imo. With demon summoning, you're not guaranteed created units since you can fail the cast and the opponent can roll to deny the witch. Secondly, you can kill the demon princes or other units that are summoning demons. With the drone factory, the spawns are guaranteed and you are unable to kill the piranhas if they're allowed to enter and leave in the same turn. It's not fun having something in the game that you outright cannot interact with or stop, and I say that as a player with a Tau army.

 lessthanjeff wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:


Big difference between allowing your 1000 point death star to be only snap shot at for the entire game, to having a unit make BS2, T4 drones (which, btw, is no different than demon summoning)

There's a big difference in the demon summoning comparison to the drone creation one imo. With demon summoning, you're not guaranteed created units since you can fail the cast and the opponent can roll to deny the witch. Secondly, you can kill the demon princes or other units that are summoning demons. With the drone factory, the spawns are guaranteed and you are unable to kill the piranhas if they're allowed to enter and leave in the same turn. It's not fun having something in the game that you outright cannot interact with or stop, and I say that as a player with a Tau army.

At this point I am not going to re-write something I have already said, I understand that most people are not reading the article so I will copy and paste, so tiring!

If they are leaving the field the same turn they come on than they are losing out on a lot also! Seeker missiles, burst cannons, objective grabbing are all things they lose if they leave the turn they come on, if a player where to play the formation they will realize they rather the piranhas leave than stay!

 BoomWolf wrote:
Indeed, we have many units, spells and tricks to generate multiple units over time, none of them dominating any tornaments.

Being easy to field and spawning a lot of points-how about tervigons? spawning 40ish points every turn (so matching firestorm, a trio will cost close, and spawn 120ish a turn) on psykers with an MC body that are ready to go get stuff done-so they are not a "spawn tax" alone. Where did you last see these guys in a serious list? and they spawn on the front lines, not the rear, and the spawned units score. yet nobody cares for them, as their spawning just isn't good enough.

The nid endless swarm formation (something along these lines) and skyswarm also arn't seen very often. 50% to respawn gaunts or gargolyes with all attached upgrades-possibly hundrends of points in each respawn. also-scoring.

The demons summoning-not dominating anything, just taken as utility in existing demon lists. everyone acknowledge its good, nobody is overly afraid of it.

Renegades Unending host-the outright biggest auto-spawner around, not seen in any competition. that thing has a 5/6 chance to respawn any infantry unit numbering 15 or more-basically everything you take. and they come out in outflank. with all special guns and upgrades. and its still scores, and if it was stoops still ObSec.
Practically speaking, over 6 turns it has an average respawn potential of three times again your entire list (assuming you take heavy casualties), or "just" you entire list again assuming the enemy fails at killing you despite you being utterly reckless and throwing troops at his without doing anything for their survival in all out offensive-nobody even cares, its not considered a threat.



As for Gladius not generating the same points of free stuff-that's a fallacy. the fact the drones COST more than the transports means not they are WORTH more.
A razorback is worth much more than it's cost in drones even before taking into account its Obsec under the Gladius.
It may take a bit more effort to fit them in, but the units within the gladius itself are not there only to bring in the razors-its a BIG force, of ObSec units of multiple types, able to be geared up to pretty much every job-and it can generate 10 razorbacks, who are 550 points on their own right, to start on the table turn 1.
The factory only generates its first 384 batch at turn 2. and only by turn 3 it bypasses the Gladius in the costs spawned-but I will still say, not in the VALUE created. these 10 razors came earlier, acted earlier (they will probably have T1 targets, considering 36" guns), could serve as mobile bunkers for infantry, are Obsec with rhino bodies-they did MORE.




Nobody is saying the firestorm is bad, or that it isn't even pretty darn powerful.
But broken? far from it. it doesn't do anything other armies don't already do more either with more raw points efficiency, more tactical choice, or both.
And under the kneejerk nerf-not worth taking.
There are many, MANY formations out there, in tau, necron, marines, etc who are far more powerful. none got this preemptive nerf treatment.
And the worst thing in preemptive nerf-you can't really reverse it, as you will NEVER know if its actually broken or not. you got no actual experience or results on how powerful the unshackled variation is as its not allowed, and no results on how poor the shackled version is as nobody bothers taking it.

Lots to reply to here....First - Tervigons are great and I've seen a great deal of them taken in 2-3 flyrant lists. They have a 4/9 chance to roll a double anytime they spawn units so in most cases only get to spawn twice with an average game averaging around 20 gaunts. Even if thats all you get you still got a big ass MC with synapse holding down your back lines. Your first roll could be triple 1's though - so it's considered a high risk/ high reward option. This is clearly not the case with drone factory. Without the nerf it is literally an automatic huge point swing on the level of almost doubling the points of your army at 1850 points (considering the fact that you pay for the first round of drones and the fish themselves - and that the drones still need to move into firing range a might not have a target on the first turn they arrive.) Drone factory is a 0 risk insane reward formation because it's not even on the table for you to counter. Still Tervigons see competitive play.

Daemon summoning and daemonkin. Summoning requires a psyhic test - it can be failed - you can perils - and summoned daemons are crap. Daemonkin can summon like 3-4 greater daemons or some bloodthirsters in a 5 turn game if all goes well. IT DOES NOT MATTER - they will never assualt - it takes then 3 turns to get into combat. Best they can do is spawn a few chariots because they actually have a gun they can use right away - though it isn't very good. Plus - stuff had to die for them to be summoned anyways - a pretty terrible condition to be competitive with.

Renegades - admittedly I don't know a lot about this - I am assuming it's some forge-world crap and it sounds incessantly boring to play. I know they bring artillery and a lot of units. Re-spawning isn't the same thing as spawning though. As you know - a re-spawn army could never have more points on the board than they started with which is exactly what makes drone factory broken - though that renegades crap sounds broken too - I did see 1 renegades army made it in the top 20 at LVO. I'll have to look up what list he was running.

Gladius gives you 480 free points of a crap unit needing to feild 12 crap 70 points units and a crap 75 point chaplain in order to get them - the selection basically fills up your entire 1850 points. It's only real strength is objective secured and that's how it wins. It doesn't overpower the enemy - in fact it's still outgunned vs every xenos army it encounters and still if you consider the amount of people that were running this formation and only 1 made it to final 16 at LVO that the formation is really not that good. With that many objective secured units and the nature of this being a dice game - it's going to be hard to lose too many objective missions with it. The fact that most the time when it wins its nearly been tabled vs an enemy that has 1000 points left. I've seen gladius tabled by wolf stars and wraithwings in 3 turns. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that gladius really isn't that good and is exceptionally easy to beat with many top tier lists.

480 points of crap vs basically another 1850 points of slightly less bad crap. It's really not a comparison.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
All of the hasty Tau nerf decisions need to be revisited.

I don't even play Tau. It's just plain wrong to nerf before a solid round of testing.

You don't need to test to tell if something is clearly broken.

If I had a formation that spawned that cost 600 that granted me 1800 points of naked Space marine bikes over the course of 5 turns I don't think we'd be having this discussion. In many ways the drones are actually better too - they can fly over dangerous terrain -have str 5 weapons as opposed to str 4 and they cause pinning and they can move in the assault phase.

If you think drones are somehow equal to bike marines in value, you have a serious lack of understanding of the game. They are nowhere close in value compared to thier costs.
Bikers are staple marine units, gun drones are practically never taken.
And had they spawned, bikers would move up field far FAR faster than drones. Rendering half the issues of the formation moot.


The fact you think it's "obviously op" and can't be dealt with is your problem, and not the people who would want to use it. I can think of many ways to deal with this formation with any functional army (so people should stop flinging BA and DE as arguments, they fail against EVERYTHING.) and most ways are already well within the tools already employed by good armies. (easiest example, drop pod wrecking your diminished army before the factory revs up)

And I'm pretty sure I can beat it without a dedicated counter.,even though I'm not LVO top table material. Drones are really not very scary, even when spawned.
And as already shown, it actually spawns far less than you claim. Most of them will not reach the front on time, or are already in the costs to begin with.

I don't even own a single piranha, I'd never field this, but it is worthy to be fielded by others.

The fact you choose to ignore all the issues, strings attached and answers to this GAMBLE of a formation (you gamble you got first turn, if you don't, the formation is screwed.) does not mean that they are not there, nor does it means it doesn't deserve the bare minimum of giving it a try. I'm willing to bet even the unnerfed version can't make LVO top tables.

 BoomWolf wrote:
If you think drones are somehow equal to bike marines in value, you have a serious lack of understanding of the game. They are nowhere close in value compared to thier costs.
Bikers are staple marine units, gun drones are practically never taken.
And had they spawned, bikers would move up field far FAR faster than drones. Rendering half the issues of the formation moot.


The fact you think it's "obviously op" and can't be dealt with is your problem, and not the people who would want to use it. I can think of many ways to deal with this formation with any functional army (so people should stop flinging BA and DE as arguments, they fail against EVERYTHING.) and most ways are already well within the tools already employed by good armies. (easiest example, drop pod wrecking your diminished army before the factory revs up)

And I'm pretty sure I can beat it without a dedicated counter.,even though I'm not LVO top table material. Drones are really not very scary, even when spawned.
And as already shown, it actually spawns far less than you claim. Most of them will not reach the front on time, or are already in the costs to begin with.

I don't even own a single piranha, I'd never field this, but it is worthy to be fielded by others.

The fact you choose to ignore all the issues, strings attached and answers to this GAMBLE of a formation (you gamble you got first turn, if you don't, the formation is screwed.) does not mean that they are not there, nor does it means it doesn't deserve the bare minimum of giving it a try. I'm willing to bet even the unnerfed version can't make LVO top tables.

Naked bikes are not a staple marine unit. There is basically no reason to take a bike squad without an assault weapon. Without the assualt weapon bikes are trash compared to gun drones.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Naked bikes are not a staple marine unit. There is basically no reason to take a bike squad without an assault weapon. Without the assualt weapon bikes are trash compared to gun drones.

Gravbikes? HoW?

X078 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Naked bikes are not a staple marine unit. There is basically no reason to take a bike squad without an assault weapon. Without the assualt weapon bikes are trash compared to gun drones.

Gravbikes? HoW?

Naked does not equal grav bikes.

 Xenomancers wrote:

X078 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Naked bikes are not a staple marine unit. There is basically no reason to take a bike squad without an assault weapon. Without the assualt weapon bikes are trash compared to gun drones.

Gravbikes? HoW?

Naked does not equal grav bikes.

Even bolter bikes are better though.

X078 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

X078 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Naked bikes are not a staple marine unit. There is basically no reason to take a bike squad without an assault weapon. Without the assualt weapon bikes are trash compared to gun drones.

Gravbikes? HoW?

Naked does not equal grav bikes.

Even bolter bikes are better though.

How? They cost more and have less firepower. The point I'm trying to make here is that for some reason this formation would be broken if it gave you 1800 points of naked bikes instead of gun drones for some reason...even though it wouldn't really be much better or worse. Exposing the tau bias is my aim. Consider it exposed.

 Xenomancers wrote:

X078 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

X078 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Naked bikes are not a staple marine unit. There is basically no reason to take a bike squad without an assault weapon. Without the assualt weapon bikes are trash compared to gun drones.

Gravbikes? HoW?

Naked does not equal grav bikes.

Even bolter bikes are better though.

How? They cost more and have less firepower. The point I'm trying to make here is that for some reason this formation would be broken if it gave you 1800 points of naked bikes instead of gun drones for some reason...even though it wouldn't really be much better or worse. Exposing the tau bias is my aim. Consider it exposed.

In theory yes, you get a ton of "free" points using this formation. But in practicality it isn't that great. The drones have to spawn within 6" of the edge of the board and can only move 6" plus a jump move. Their guns are 18", meaning it will take 2 or more turns to get in range of anything. And then you are only shooting St5/AP5 shots at BS2

The Drone disembark 6" from the Piranha, the Piranha deploys 6" from the table edge. Add in the length of the Piranha flying stand for measurement, and the Drones can shoot at targets ~36" from your table edge, which is 12" from your opponent's table edge. If they then JSJ ~7" further forward, followed by a turn to move, those Drones are shooting at the back edge of the table. Because math.

SJ

I am not going to repeat myself I am just going to copy and paste from the article!

So in exchange for not shooting 20 strength 5 shots from the piranhas the Tau player is gaining a unit that can shoot 20 str 5 shots! No true gain is made until the second batch which comes in on turn 3, which has target restraints because of how it is deployed!

You obviously are not playing reserves right.

You enter the board so that the front of the piranha is no more than 6" from table edge, followed by 6 disembark. With 18 gun a shot against anything beyond 30 requires cheating.

After average jump, and next turn movement you can get 43, assuming no pathing issues like terrain or units, and not getting torn apart.

43 inches is "back of the table" for some deployment types, but not all. And that's only when gunning straight forward, hardly ever a tactically solid choice. In this deployment type, most everything can shoot 42" into the table at turn 1.

And you will be shooting straight, not from optimal angles. Being able to get to end Table in suicide rush does not equal actual proper positioning.


So once more, you depend upon having a lucky break in how the table is set up. If it's set up in the short edges being your entry points? You won't get into backfield even with 3 turns of straight rush.

 BoomWolf wrote:
You obviously are not playing reserves right.

You enter the board so that the front of the piranha is no more than 6" from table edge, followed by 6 disembark. With 18 gun a shot against anything beyond 30 requires cheating.

After average jump, and next turn movement you can get 43, assuming no pathing issues like terrain or units, and not getting torn apart.

43 inches is "back of the table" for some deployment types, but not all. And that's only when gunning straight forward, hardly ever a tactically solid choice. In this deployment type, most everything can shoot 42" into the table at turn 1.

And you will be shooting straight, not from optimal angles. Being able to get to end Table in suicide rush does not equal actual proper positioning.


So once more, you depend upon having a lucky break in how the table is set up. If it's set up in the short edges being your entry points? You won't get into backfield even with 3 turns of straight rush.

Place objectives in the middle of the board...they are ether in range of your shooting on your first turn of deployment (turn 2 or later) or they aren't getting objectives and you win anyways. Why isn't this a problem for other units that aren't in range the first turn they deploy? I mean...you still pay for those units too - why should it be such a huge issue when the unit is literally free anyways - plus is probably going to be in range to shoot something anyways because you chose where you come on the board. Jezz - getting torn up? Isn't that the idea of taking free units? So the enemy can waste points shooting at free units?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

X078 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

X078 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Naked bikes are not a staple marine unit. There is basically no reason to take a bike squad without an assault weapon. Without the assualt weapon bikes are trash compared to gun drones.

Gravbikes? HoW?

Naked does not equal grav bikes.

Even bolter bikes are better though.

How? They cost more and have less firepower. The point I'm trying to make here is that for some reason this formation would be broken if it gave you 1800 points of naked bikes instead of gun drones for some reason...even though it wouldn't really be much better or worse. Exposing the tau bias is my aim. Consider it exposed.

In theory yes, you get a ton of "free" points using this formation. But in practicality it isn't that great. The drones have to spawn within 6" of the edge of the board and can only move 6" plus a jump move. Their guns are 18", meaning it will take 2 or more turns to get in range of anything. And then you are only shooting St5/AP5 shots at BS2

twinlinked BS 2 is statistically bs 4 but actually its better because you are twice as likely to hit when you shoot at a flier or in over watch. Their shooting is great. Plus pinning. Keep telling me how bad drones are when in fact they are one of the best infantry shooters in the game.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
You obviously are not playing reserves right.

You enter the board so that the front of the piranha is no more than 6" from table edge, followed by 6 disembark. With 18 gun a shot against anything beyond 30 requires cheating.

After average jump, and next turn movement you can get 43, assuming no pathing issues like terrain or units, and not getting torn apart.

43 inches is "back of the table" for some deployment types, but not all. And that's only when gunning straight forward, hardly ever a tactically solid choice. In this deployment type, most everything can shoot 42" into the table at turn 1.

And you will be shooting straight, not from optimal angles. Being able to get to end Table in suicide rush does not equal actual proper positioning.


So once more, you depend upon having a lucky break in how the table is set up. If it's set up in the short edges being your entry points? You won't get into backfield even with 3 turns of straight rush.

Place objectives in the middle of the board...they are ether in range of your shooting on your first turn of deployment (turn 2 or later) or they aren't getting objectives and you win anyways. Why isn't this a problem for other units that aren't in range the first turn they deploy? I mean...you still pay for those units too - why should it be such a huge issue when the unit is literally free anyways - plus is probably going to be in range to shoot something anyways because you chose where you come on the board. Jezz - getting torn up? Isn't that the idea of taking free units? So the enemy can waste points shooting at free units?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

X078 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

X078 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Naked bikes are not a staple marine unit. There is basically no reason to take a bike squad without an assault weapon. Without the assualt weapon bikes are trash compared to gun drones.

Gravbikes? HoW?

Naked does not equal grav bikes.

Even bolter bikes are better though.

How? They cost more and have less firepower. The point I'm trying to make here is that for some reason this formation would be broken if it gave you 1800 points of naked bikes instead of gun drones for some reason...even though it wouldn't really be much better or worse. Exposing the tau bias is my aim. Consider it exposed.

In theory yes, you get a ton of "free" points using this formation. But in practicality it isn't that great. The drones have to spawn within 6" of the edge of the board and can only move 6" plus a jump move. Their guns are 18", meaning it will take 2 or more turns to get in range of anything. And then you are only shooting St5/AP5 shots at BS2

twinlinked BS 2 is statistically bs 4 but actually its better because you are twice as likely to hit when you shoot at a flier or in over watch. Their shooting is great. Plus pinning. Keep telling me how bad drones are when in fact they are one of the best infantry shooters in the game.

Can you tell me your opinion about the loss of firepower, when the piranhas leave the field. The drones that they create shoot 20 shots but since the piranhas are leaving the field they are losing 20 shots so technically there is no gain.

 Xenomancers wrote:

twinlinked BS 2 is statistically bs 4 but actually its better because you are twice as likely to hit when you shoot at a flier or in over watch. Their shooting is great. Plus pinning. Keep telling me how bad drones are when in fact they are one of the best infantry shooters in the game.

Except (amongst other things) that they cannot contest, cannot score, and are practically useless in close combat, they are ok.

notredameguy10 wrote:


Big difference between allowing your 1000 point death star to be only snap shot at for the entire game, to having a unit make BS2, T4 drones (which, btw, is no different than demon summoning)

No different? Drones move faster, don't count for your opponents Kill Points, and can be subject to Deny the Witch / Perils. Not only is it different, it's extraordinarily different.

 BoomWolf wrote:

The nid endless swarm formation (something along these lines) and skyswarm also arn't seen very often. 50% to respawn gaunts or gargolyes with all attached upgrades-possibly hundrends of points in each respawn. also-scoring.

Again, this is entirely different. Tyranid formations require your opponent to interact via killing the entire squad. A squad that has pitiful defense, requires nearby leadership to even function, and has no weaponry of significance. Drones continue regardless of whether your opponent is interacting or not - and beyond that, most armies can't interact as the models are near-never on the table RAW.

 BoomWolf wrote:

There are many, MANY formations out there, in tau, necron, marines, etc who are far more powerful. none got this preemptive nerf treatment.

I didn't get to use my Wraithknight heavy D-cannon a single shot before the ITC nerfed it.

To be clear, I'm not saying your statement is wrong - only that you aren't a unique snowflake you claim to be.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The Drone disembark 6" from the Piranha, the Piranha deploys 6" from the table edge. Add in the length of the Piranha flying stand for measurement, and the Drones can shoot at targets ~36" from your table edge, which is 12" from your opponent's table edge. If they then JSJ ~7" further forward, followed by a turn to move, those Drones are shooting at the back edge of the table. Because math.

SJ

Thank you for posting. It's tiresome to see so many argue that drones will be out of range, or imply that every army they ever face will be lined up against their deployment wall like an awkward grade school dance.

 Cieged wrote:

Thank you for posting. It's tiresome to see so many argue that drones will be out of range, or imply that every army they ever face will be lined up against their deployment wall like an awkward grade school dance.

We are not saying that the drones will be out of range we are saying that they have a limitation to what they can shoot at. 30 inches combine with terrain means they are not guaranteed to have an impact the turn of arrival. Which greatly diminishes the power of the formation.

Even if they do 11-15 str 5 hits for 200 points is not good! Next turn you get another 11-15 hits is 22-30 str 5 hits worth 200 points on turn 3. Is 33-40 str 5 hits worth 200 points on turn 4. Remember this is assuming they are not dying.

So lets stop acting like 20 str 5 shots for 200 points each turn is broken!

If you think drones are so deadly why are they not winning tournaments? I could spend 640 points to get 45 drones turn one instead of having them slowly come in piecemeal why haven't people used that to win tournaments.

IF YOU ARE CREATING DRONES YOU CANT USE THE PIRANHAS! ITS EITHER OR NOT BOTH!

 CKO wrote:

 Cieged wrote:

Thank you for posting. It's tiresome to see so many argue that drones will be out of range, or imply that every army they ever face will be lined up against their deployment wall like an awkward grade school dance.

We are not saying that the drones will be out of range we are saying that they have a limitation to what they can shoot at. 30 inches combine with terrain means they are not guaranteed to have an impact the turn of arrival. Which greatly diminishes the power of the formation.

Even if they do 11-15 str 5 hits for 200 points is not good! Next turn you get another 11-15 hits is 22-30 str 5 hits worth 200 points on turn 3. Is 33-40 str 5 hits worth 200 points on turn 4. Remember this is assuming they are not dying.

So lets stop acting like 20 str 5 hits for 200 points on turn 4 is broken!

If you think drones are so deadly why are they not winning tournaments? I could spend 640 points to get 45 drones turn one instead of having them slowly come in piecemeal why haven't people used that to win tournaments.

IF YOU ARE CREATING DRONES YOU CANT USE THE PIRANHAS! ITS EITHER OR NOT BOTH!

Drones you pay for are not that great compared to the rest of the tau codex. Free drones though...come on...are we really having this discussion? They are basically mobile fire warriors - fire-warriors have always been considered a good unit. They fill the troop niche for the army quite well and literally no one complains about them sucking - because they actually don't suck. Why take more troop niche units in drones? Sure they can deep strike but why not take suits for that? That's why people don't take them - not because they suck. Keep in mind I'm saying the formation would be equally broken if it gave you fire warriors...or marines...or termagants...it's too much free stuff that your opponent can't stop - whatsoever - Barring a unit with interceptor capable of dealing 10 hullpoints to jinking units on the other side of the board (can't think of anything).

What? On turn 4 for 600 points you would have put out 120 drones from 15 piranhas (not including the piranha cost) - Thats a point value of 1440 points. Putting out a whopping 240 str 5 shots. The combined firepower of 80 heavy bolters that cause pinning only with ap 5 (gosh). Statistically it kills a wraithknight in a single turn with wounds to spare and thats without marker lights. Lets not forget you got 30 more coming on turn 5 and 30 more on turn 6 if there is one. Who cares about the piranhas?

There is no defending this joke formation. It was a ploy to sell a model that even tau enthusiast don't bother with because it looks like some aquatic GI joe vehicle. Keep in mind that the 40 point piranha with 2 gun drones putting out 8 str5 shots is already a bargan...This is why you can't reason with a tau player. They are literally blinded by the power of their book.

 Xenomancers wrote:
What? On turn 4 for 600 points you would have put out 120 drones from 15 piranhas (not including the piranha cost) - Thats a point value of 1440 points. Putting out a whopping 240 str 5 shots. The combined firepower of 80 heavy bolters that cause pinning only with ap 5 (gosh). Statistically it kills a wraithknight in a single turn with wounds to spare and thats without marker lights. Lets not forget you got 30 more coming on turn 5 and 30 more on turn 6 if there is one. Who cares about the piranhas?

I think your math is wrong could you give me a turn by turn example to display this?

Remember we are judging the formation command benefits.
I will start it off for you:
Turn 1: No drones are created because of the formation special rules, they would be there regardless.
Turn 2:

Piranha Wing use per the ITC format:

Turn 1 - drop off Drones, fire Seekers
Turn 2 - resupply
Turn 3 - arrive, drop off Drones, fire Seekers
Turn 4 - resupply
Turn 5 - arrive, drop off Drones, fire Seekers


Piranha Wing normal use per RAW:

Turn 1 - drop off Drones, resupply
Turn 2 - arrive, drop off Drones, resupply
Turn 3 - arrive, drop off Drones, resupply
Turn 4 - arrive, drop off Drones, resupply
Turn 5 - arrive, drop off Drones, resupply

ITC (96 Drones, 96 Seekers for 896 points) vs RAW (160 Drones, 0 Seekers for 640 points)

SJ

How about someone proxy up a list, play it RAW, and prove it's broken?

Until it's proven to be broken it should be played RAW.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Piranha Wing use per the ITC format:

Turn 1 - drop off Drones, fire Seekers
Turn 2 - resupply
Turn 3 - arrive, drop off Drones, fire Seekers
Turn 4 - resupply
Turn 5 - arrive, drop off Drones, fire Seekers


Piranha Wing normal use per RAW:

Turn 1 - drop off Drones, resupply
Turn 2 - arrive, drop off Drones, resupply
Turn 3 - arrive, drop off Drones, resupply
Turn 4 - arrive, drop off Drones, resupply
Turn 5 - arrive, drop off Drones, resupply

ITC (96 Drones, 96 Seekers for 896 points) vs RAW (160 Drones, 0 Seekers for 640 points)

SJ

Thank You SJ!

Using his example I will write the benefits next to it each turn, the real benefit.

Piranha Wing normal use per RAW:

Turn 1 - drop off Drones, resupply (Did the formation give you these drones? No, so the formation had nothing to do with the original drones whats worse 600 points leave the field!)
Turn 2 - arrive, drop off Drones, resupply (60 str 5 shots gained but the piranhas had sixty shots and they left so no true gain you spent 600 points to gain 60 str 5 shots that was already there technically)
Turn 3 - arrive, drop off Drones, resupply (120 str 5 shots but you lost 60 so on turn 3 you are shooting 60 extra shots for 600 points)
Turn 4 - arrive, drop off Drones, resupply(120 extra shots for 600 points)
Turn 5 - arrive, drop off Drones, resupply(180 extra shots for 600 points)

I bet that first turn when 600 points leave the field hurts, ouch! This is assuming that none of the drones die.

man I wish I could choose to just put 600 points of stuff into ongoing reserve. Its super common to see both sides putting most of there army in reserve. With the piranhas you would get to choose what turn you actually wanted them instead of leaving it up to chance, and they would generate extra drones for every turn you held off. Thats sweet.

But really you're not putting 600 points in reserve. The piranhas without the drones are not 600 points. If you felt like I actually valued having the piranhas shoot instead of bring in more drones then that is still an option, and it wouldn't surprise me if you end up choosing that against some armies, but always having the choice to deny your opponent is strong, and getting rewarded with a ton of drones is amazing.

 Xenomancers wrote:

twinlinked BS 2 is statistically bs 4 but actually its better because you are twice as likely to hit when you shoot at a flier or in over watch. Their shooting is great. Plus pinning. Keep telling me how bad drones are when in fact they are one of the best infantry shooters in the game.

Yeah its not statistically BS4. Check the math again. 2/6 first shots hit then (1/3 chance)*4 shots for the misses = total of 3.333/6


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 coblen wrote:
man I wish I could choose to just put 600 points of stuff into ongoing reserve. Its super common to see both sides putting most of there army in reserve. With the piranhas you would get to choose what turn you actually wanted them instead of leaving it up to chance, and they would generate extra drones for every turn you held off. Thats sweet.

But really you're not putting 600 points in reserve. The piranhas without the drones are not 600 points. If you felt like I actually valued having the piranhas shoot instead of bring in more drones then that is still an option, and it wouldn't surprise me if you end up choosing that against some armies, but always having the choice to deny your opponent is strong, and getting rewarded with a ton of drones is amazing.

Too bad piranhas have 18" range with their guns so that isn't an option if you ever want them to go back into reserves again for the rest of the game

i think this is one of those things that just needs to be banned from 40k altogeather competitively. and just agree not to take it in your local circles in the interests of fairness.

i mean if i saw the pirahna formation array'd against me the solution for me if i was forced to play against it would be to smash them with the hammer because nobody should be forced to play against anything.

so thats what i think we should be doing here