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Hi,

I'm a casual player looking at either playing White Scars or Ultramarines. I'm more interested in playing squads I think are fun than worrying about being driven by competition ATM.

I've been doing a lot of research, and I understand units like Terminators and Vanguard Veterans are considered to be too expensive generally for Tournament play.

However, I've been reading that Vanguard Vets can take Power Fists and Storm Shields (not just Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields.)

I've been thinking about running two x10 man squads of VV in a 1st Company Task Force as my Auxiliary Formation (with a squad of Sternguard in a Drop Pod to back them up), mainly because I think with White Scars it could be a fun change up from the Bike-Centric army lists I keep reading about. Something against type (I would still run bikes in my core formation, but this would give me some added flexibility if it was handled right.)

Thunder Hammers seem to be a bit on the expensive side unfortunately, and I'm a little uncomfortable with overspending points on a unit with weaker armor than Terminators.

However I like the idea of mixed squads designed to jump behind the cover of Rhinos/Razorbacks while using scout to their advantage, and I'd like these squads to be big enough not to break or falter immediately.

I know I'm inexperienced, and that Vanguard vets are NOT a popular choice, however I'd like to get advice on how to best field them from a price Vs performance angle. Here's what I'm thinking so far.


VANGUARD VET SQUAD LOUDOUT* (445PTS Each):

A.) Sargent w/Jump Pack, Melta Bomb, Relic Blade, and Storm Shield

B.) x4 Vanguard Veterans w/Melta Bombs, Power Fists, and Storm Shields

C.) x5 Vanguard Veterans w/Dual Lightning Claws and Melta Bombs


*Both Squads would be fairly expensive at 445 PTS each, but by taking Power Fists instead of Thunder Hammers I'd save 15 PTS (30 PTS really for both squads combined)

Another alternative would be to go with all Dual Lightning Claws, but I like the idea of the SS troops out front. Soaking up the hits until they get where they need to go.

I could ditch 45 PTS and just have the Sargent use a Melta Bomb as well. If four Power Fists feels like enough to deal with most vehicles with high armor.

I could also ditch the Relic blade on the Sargent for a Thunder Hammer.

This is a "rule of cool" unit to me...I don't want it to be too point inefficient, but I'm not really interested in fielding weaker weapons. I'm going to be going bare bones with Tactical squads and the like as it is. These is my "fun" squads, so I don't care about spending PTS to make them tough...I'm more curious if Concussive is worth the extra points, and if melta bombs on every unit is a must. The Lightning Claws are more for extra attacks if they have to thin rank and file units, but if they're ultimately not that useful, I could potentially swap them out for something else.

I haven't looked into Plasma and Grav Pistols yet either...so if you think a more shooty direction is worth exploring I'd love notes on that too.

Sorry for the novel!!

Don't put weapon upgrades on the guys with Storm Shields. Their job is to tank hits, not kill things.

Lightning claws are garbage. Always get the AP 2.

Run them in units of five. They will be more survivable that way. I'd go five men with two storm shields and a power fist, and melta bombs all around.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Don't put weapon upgrades on the guys with Storm Shields. Their job is to tank hits, not kill things.

You can give them melta bombs.

Melta bombs are cheap enough that I would agree.

If your going to use LC do one claw and one PF. In truth though at I4 Vanguard are going last a lot of the time anyway so you might as well go for axes/fists.

How many fists do you need in the squad? Something that requires a whole squad of VVs with fists to deal with is probably a better target for grav bikes.

I don’t think everyone needs a shield. 2-3 in a 5 man squad should be fine. Mixing weapons makes them flexible. Some AP2 for when you need to kill terminators, and AP3 for mulching MEQ.

At 5ppm power weapons I might spring for axes for the shield guys. Or lightning claws, as they are not getting the extra attack for the pistol. Fists are a little expensive here IMHO. They are still 1W models.

For the non-SS guys, I’d run either axe/sword and bolt pistol.

While the price drop on these guys and their upgrades is very nice, they still need to worry about how much you sink into them. It’s tempting to kit them out to the nines, but then they are never going to make their points back.

From a purely practical POV, I’d try to keep it to two different weapons, with the possible exception of the sarge being unique. When I built my squad of 10, I mixed a lot of the options up, just for fluff and looks. And while it was cool to have swords/spears/mauls/claws/chainswords all hacking away, it was a major PITA to deal with checking to see who was still alive, piling in or in contact, etc.

 Nevelon wrote:
How many fists do you need in the squad? Something that requires a whole squad of VVs with fists to deal with is probably a better target for grav bikes.

I don’t think everyone needs a shield. 2-3 in a 5 man squad should be fine. Mixing weapons makes them flexible. Some AP2 for when you need to kill terminators, and AP3 for mulching MEQ.

At 5ppm power weapons I might spring for axes for the shield guys. Or lightning claws, as they are not getting the extra attack for the pistol. Fists are a little expensive here IMHO. They are still 1W models.

For the non-SS guys, I’d run either axe/sword and bolt pistol.

While the price drop on these guys and their upgrades is very nice, they still need to worry about how much you sink into them. It’s tempting to kit them out to the nines, but then they are never going to make their points back.

From a purely practical POV, I’d try to keep it to two different weapons, with the possible exception of the sarge being unique. When I built my squad of 10, I mixed a lot of the options up, just for fluff and looks. And while it was cool to have swords/spears/mauls/claws/chainswords all hacking away, it was a major PITA to deal with checking to see who was still alive, piling in or in contact, etc.

Sometimes tough things like MCs get in ruins and become suboptimal targets for grav. Jump in there an tear them limb from limb!

Martel732 wrote:
Sometimes tough things like MCs get in ruins and become suboptimal targets for grav. Jump in there an tear them limb from limb!

I just cringe at the price per model. Is this a situation that comes up often enough to justify the investment? I’m not one to shy away from CC, but am also very stingy with wargear. If I can get a squad that works 90% as well for half the price, by not over-investing in upgrades, I’ll go that way. And buy two.

For MCs in cover, is a hidden powerfist or two enough, particularly when backed up by some axes (to save points), or do you need to go all-in?

Hammernators have to take the hammer and shield on each because they are forced to, not because they can, so the dudes with the shields can just use a chainsword to skim on points. Have 2 power fists or thunder hammers in the unit is more than enough to handle most tanks that comes your way.

 Nevelon wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Sometimes tough things like MCs get in ruins and become suboptimal targets for grav. Jump in there an tear them limb from limb!

I just cringe at the price per model. Is this a situation that comes up often enough to justify the investment? I’m not one to shy away from CC, but am also very stingy with wargear. If I can get a squad that works 90% as well for half the price, by not over-investing in upgrades, I’ll go that way. And buy two.

For MCs in cover, is a hidden powerfist or two enough, particularly when backed up by some axes (to save points), or do you need to go all-in?

My build was squads of five with one powerfist, five meltabombs, and two storm shields.

I prefer one normal dude to every marine whose has something special. I would never want every squad member to have a special weapon because that gets costly and leads to overkill. I don't want to kill an opponents unit in one assault phase in most cases, I want it to last till my opponents turn to stay safe from shooting and then in my turn get ready for a fresh assault.

The most point efficient way would probably just be axes.

If you want PF/SS vets with jump packs they will set you back 47 ppm.
Nearly 50 points each for 3 S8 AP2 attacks on the charge at I1

If you kit them out with axes they are 27 ppm
They will give you 4 S5 AP2 attacks on the charge at I1

So 235 points will get you a squad of 5 PF/SS
or 8 Axe vets (216) You could add 2 Storm shields to the squad to bring it up to 236 and lose 2 attacks,

Assuming you are not charging power swords, you will get either, 15 attacks S8 AP2 or 32(or30) attacks S5 AP2

PF/SS are wasted hunting anything short of T6+ MCs or heavy vehicles, and then they are pretty overkill.

Axes are cheap enough and just as good at taking out TEQs, the extra attacks and bodies make up for the lower strength.

You need fists against IK for sure.

Given that knights are I4 and ever wound is probably kill a vet, Id prefer to give everyone melta bombs than rely on one power fist. At av 13, you don't have a great chance of hurting it.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Given that knights are I4 and ever wound is probably kill a vet, Id prefer to give everyone melta bombs than rely on one power fist. At av 13, you don't have a great chance of hurting it.

True, but three swings at S8 is statistically better than one melta swing. But maybe it's not worth it.

I was thinking of taking three bombs

15 points just like the fist.

harkequin wrote:The most point efficient way would probably just be axes.

If you want PF/SS vets with jump packs they will set you back 47 ppm.
Nearly 50 points each for 3 S8 AP2 attacks on the charge at I1

If you kit them out with axes they are 27 ppm
They will give you 4 S5 AP2 attacks on the charge at I1

So 235 points will get you a squad of 5 PF/SS
or 8 Axe vets (216) You could add 2 Storm shields to the squad to bring it up to 236 and lose 2 attacks,

Assuming you are not charging power swords, you will get either, 15 attacks S8 AP2 or 32(or30) attacks S5 AP2

PF/SS are wasted hunting anything short of T6+ MCs or heavy vehicles, and then they are pretty overkill.

Axes are cheap enough and just as good at taking out TEQs, the extra attacks and bodies make up for the lower strength.

This is an interesting thought. I know the Power Axe isn't a specialist weapon, but what about Storm Shield/Power Axe/Melta Bomb for every Space Marine, and a Thunder hammer on the Sarge?

Sergeant w/ Melta Bomb, Thunder Hammer, and Storm Sheild.
x4 Space Marines w/ Melta Bomb, Power Axe, and Storm Sheild

95 Base Points

+15 Points for Jump Packs
+25 Points for the Melta Bombs
+20 Points for the Power Axes
+50 Points for the Storm Shields
+20 Points for the Thunder Hammer (For the Sarge)

225 Points total then for a 5 man squad.

OR...

I could do Power Axes and Grav Pistols in the offhand for the four space marines, so they get to reroll to wound with the weaker offhand attack, and save 20 points...


95 Base Points

+60 Points for offhand Grav Pistols
+15 Points for Jump Packs
+5 Points for a Melta Bomb (For the Sarge)
+20 Points for the Power Axes
+10 Points for the Storm Shield (For the Sarge)
+20 Points for the Thunder Hammer (For the Sarge)

225 Points total then for a 5 man squad. (S

HoundsofDemos wrote:Don't put weapon upgrades on the guys with Storm Shields. Their job is to tank hits, not kill things.

So you think the units with storm shields should just have chain swords and act as "tanks" for the units with power weapons then? That's also an interesting idea. Hrmn....

Martel732 wrote:Lightning claws are garbage. Always get the AP 2.

Run them in units of five. They will be more survivable that way. I'd go five men with two storm shields and a power fist, and melta bombs all around.

You can give them melta bombs.

So multiple units of 5 will last longer? I was under the impression that a larger unit would be harder to break.

The guys with the shield are there to take wounds that you won't get your armor save against. Every time you roll that dice they have a 1/3 chance of dying. If you give them weapons as well your bleeding points very quickly. They are still only T4 3+ infantry, they are not that durable, so you want to spread the upgrades you do buy around and shift your guys where you need them to absorb fire. 225 points for five MEQ is way to much for a unit that is a battle cannon shot away from vanishing.

Herecomesyourman wrote:
So multiple units of 5 will last longer? I was under the impression that a larger unit would be harder to break.

Warp Talons are 160pts with a native 5+ Invul Save, and they seen are one of the most fragile units in the game. They constantly frustrate new players who run them because they have a shining sign on them saying "shoot me". Bigger is not always better.

Marquee jump units need to stay small and have the support of an entire army that's competing for target priority. Your Vanguard will probably be safest with a 35pt Grav-Cannon on your Tacs, so your opponent has to make a hard choice about what unit to attack.

"So multiple units of 5 will last longer? I was under the impression that a larger unit would be harder to break. "

They are more durable because they have to be targeted separately in the shooting phase. Who cares about breaking with space marines?

HoundsofDemos wrote:
The guys with the shield are there to take wounds that you won't get your armor save against. Every time you roll that dice they have a 1/3 chance of dying. If you give them weapons as well your bleeding points very quickly. They are still only T4 3+ infantry, they are not that durable, so you want to spread the upgrades you do buy around and shift your guys where you need them to absorb fire. 225 points for five MEQ is way to much for a unit that is a battle cannon shot away from vanishing.

What if you gave everyone Melta Bombs, Power Axes, and Storm Shields then.

Each marine is worth 42 points about then. You wouldn't have any Thunder hammers/Power Fists, but everyone could tank and dish out a decent hit. And you'd have the Melta's to deal with vehicles.

Or is it better to have some troops specializing in dealing more damage, etc. While others soak the hits.

You only need a few storm shields. And a few axes.

Generally you want specialization, as that saves you points. No matter how many upgrades you pile on these guys are still T4 3+ or 3++ save. They are not that hard to kill, so you want to keep them as cheap as you can. For a five man unit I would do two shields, two axes with one on the sergeant and 3 or so melta bombs, though that depends on the rest of your army. If you have enough anti tank from other sources then skip the bombs and go for a third ax.

2 Shields. 1 Power Fist. 4 Melta Bombs

I've found you always need at least 1 PF. After that the sheer number of bolt pistol & chainsword attacks will take care of light & medium infantry. MBs are necessary for the big machines. I'd also give'em a IC, like a chapi. HtH units really need that extra oomph that only ICs can provide.

If you want them to take on tough stuff without a huge squad or IC your really gonna need to invest alot of points. Take all PFs & THs with more than just 2 SSs. You can't take out a 350 point LoW with a 250 elite. Unless you're eldar.

Melta bombs are great versus super heavy walkers since they confer Armorbane. They are good versus monstrous creatures too though... You should consider if you're designing the unit to be well rounded or to be specialized and deal with one type of enemy unit. Power axes are fairly useless versus super heavy walkers. I would definitely take two stormshields in a five man unit plus five melta bombs and a thunderhammer. The hammer can concuss MCs so if you survive the first round of combat you're swinging simultaneously and this where those two stormshields can really pay off. A Knight typically has three base attacks and will hit two out of three times and you have decent odds to pass two 3++ saves. I have seen a single terminator with a stormshield lock a Knight in combat for several turns.