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notredameguy10 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

How is it any different than me making up rules and playing with them? "Experimental rules" is essentially forge-world admitting that this thing is not balanced within the game.

Thats not what experimental rules means. That was used in the past as the initial rules that may still be tweaked before the model is released in an actual forge world book

So they are legal now why? because they don't need to be tweaked? Calling them experimental for what purpose? Just cause it sounds cool?

Experimental just means they aren't published in an Imperial Armour book, nothing else.

 1PlusLogan wrote:
Experimental just means they aren't published in an Imperial Armour book, nothing else.

Per FW - that is not what it means. Per FW it means it hasn't been play tested and might need "tweaks".

I have to agree with Xenomancers on this one, because the Ta'Unar doesn't have the experimental stamp, and they are the newest tau rules.
That said, I don't think running forgeworld riptides around 40k games is really ok for an already upper tier codex

Yep, experimental is "not fully tested and subject to radical changes"

I had to check the date on the thread to make sure it wasn't necro'd, as this is a, what, 4-year old topic? When did riptides come out?

At any rate, yes riptides are extremely good and durable for their point, and no, there's not much assault themed armies can do about it except get in assault. They are not, however, unbeatable, especially for marines. Melta, plasma, grav, assault cannons, etc, etc, can all make your life easier.

At least you actually have useful ranged Ap2 to deal with them. And you don't have to worry about fear tests in CC!

I get tired of my warbossi failing fear tests. Last time was with the FW boss + bike in combat with castellans, and I thought it particularly funny because I think the warboss model was larger than the castellans, yet was afraid of them.

The IDEA of anything can get in your head. There's a thread regarding how to go after a Riptide Wing which I am probably goingto find is a more worthwhile discussion than getting people to rally around the idea that they can't be beaten.

Maybe join that thread and discuss good ways to tackle it.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
At any rate, yes riptides are extremely good and durable for their point, and no, there's not much assault themed armies can do about it except get in assault. They are not, however, unbeatable, especially for marines. Melta, plasma, grav, assault cannons, etc, etc, can all make your life easier.

Not to mention the soft and weak Tau units providing the Riptide all those Markerlight hits it needs to go from powerful to tasteless. But some players always tunnel vision towards the biggest target instead of maybe picking off the small guys first. If you go for an Imperial army's Knight first you are correct - taking it out will disable a lot of the army firepower and it's a big chunk of points. But going for the Tau Riptide first? Why? It's harder to kill than the support units buffing it, and Markerlights are Heavy weapons. Catch the Stealth suits etc that buff the Riptide and it's crippled. Then just win on objectives.

If I can disassemble Tau with my SoB I'd expect anyone else being able to do it too. Especially marines of any flavor that can get Drop Pods from their own Codex. Don't put five combimeltas on those Sternguard, give them flamers and roast some Markerlights!

Spetulhu wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
At any rate, yes riptides are extremely good and durable for their point, and no, there's not much assault themed armies can do about it except get in assault. They are not, however, unbeatable, especially for marines. Melta, plasma, grav, assault cannons, etc, etc, can all make your life easier.

Not to mention the soft and weak Tau units providing the Riptide all those Markerlight hits it needs to go from powerful to tasteless. But some players always tunnel vision towards the biggest target instead of maybe picking off the small guys first. If you go for an Imperial army's Knight first you are correct - taking it out will disable a lot of the army firepower and it's a big chunk of points. But going for the Tau Riptide first? Why? It's harder to kill than the support units buffing it, and Markerlights are Heavy weapons. Catch the Stealth suits etc that buff the Riptide and it's crippled. Then just win on objectives.

If I can disassemble Tau with my SoB I'd expect anyone else being able to do it too. Especially marines of any flavor that can get Drop Pods from their own Codex. Don't put five combimeltas on those Sternguard, give them flamers and roast some Markerlights!

And other assume that those are somehow free points. You justy breeze right past the cost.

Basically... the Riptide is in essence... a 200 point basilisk that does damage to itself and potentially wont fire, pays more points because its more armored. More or less. and it's about 250-300 points depending on the Markerlights it expends to get high accuracy. riiiiiiight. This is the boogeyman? this thing that can be stopped in melee? its not an Imperial Knight! it's not a Wraith Knight! It's not even close to those in effect. So what is all the angst about?

It is an excellent unit. No one should be denyng it. What do you want Tau Empire generals to do. Win with just Crisis Teams? Are you nuts? of all the unreliable things that Tau Geneals have pined their hopes to, Crisis teams are the biggest sales job of all time!

i only use two because you only need two. I understand the distaste for people who basically look through a codex and Stelek-spam "good things" as if that was going to win them anything. I know those kinds of things probably kill a lot of stuff in local games but here's something i know about gamer nature: No one likes their cheese moved. The adaptable Generals will see it once, get crushed, and modify their thought process to include this new threat and then the big bad wolf is screwed. I tore through a War Convocation the SECOND time I saw it. I won against a Battle Company th SECOND time i saw it.

Everyone whose incapable of taking their beating initially or even a couple of times with grace and learning from it is going to say the SAME THINGS about Space Wolves pretty soon. And about Tyranids. And Dark Eldar...and whatever else comes along. Yip. Absolutely going to happen. Because losing is so loathesome to some that the thought of it makes them angry. Whatever caused it makes them angry and they never blame themselves, do they?

Losses aren't personal.

 pumaman1 wrote:
I have to agree with Xenomancers on this one, because the Ta'Unar doesn't have the experimental stamp, and they are the newest tau rules.
That said, I don't think running forgeworld riptides around 40k games is really ok for an already upper tier codex

Doesn't matter what you think is ok. GW has already said that they are all 100% legal

Forge World = fail. I don't count Forge World as part of the Tau Codex so any discussion about THOSE rules is fine, but I think the distinction needs to be made between Tau armies played normally and those that include...that.

You mean...models produced by GW with rules written by GW employees at GW HQ and sold through GW sales channels for use with GW games and that are allowed at many (if not every) large 40k event?

 Vaktathi wrote:
You mean...models produced by GW with rules written by GW employees at GW HQ and sold through GW sales channels for use with GW games and that are allowed at many (if not every) large 40k event?

No. i mean the ones that say Forge World vs. the ones that don't. Nice try though.

 Jancoran wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
At any rate, yes riptides are extremely good and durable for their point, and no, there's not much assault themed armies can do about it except get in assault. They are not, however, unbeatable, especially for marines. Melta, plasma, grav, assault cannons, etc, etc, can all make your life easier.

Not to mention the soft and weak Tau units providing the Riptide all those Markerlight hits it needs to go from powerful to tasteless. But some players always tunnel vision towards the biggest target instead of maybe picking off the small guys first. If you go for an Imperial army's Knight first you are correct - taking it out will disable a lot of the army firepower and it's a big chunk of points. But going for the Tau Riptide first? Why? It's harder to kill than the support units buffing it, and Markerlights are Heavy weapons. Catch the Stealth suits etc that buff the Riptide and it's crippled. Then just win on objectives.

If I can disassemble Tau with my SoB I'd expect anyone else being able to do it too. Especially marines of any flavor that can get Drop Pods from their own Codex. Don't put five combimeltas on those Sternguard, give them flamers and roast some Markerlights!

And other assume that those are somehow free points. You justy breeze right past the cost.

Basically... the Riptide is in essence... a 200 point basilisk that does damage to itself and potentially wont fire, pays more points because its more armored. More or less. and it's about 250-300 points depending on the Markerlights it expends to get high accuracy. riiiiiiight. This is the boogeyman? this thing that can be stopped in melee? its not an Imperial Knight! it's not a Wraith Knight! It's not even close to those in effect. So what is all the angst about?

It is an excellent unit. No one should be denyng it. What do you want Tau Empire generals to do. Win with just Crisis Teams? Are you nuts? of all the unreliable things that Tau Geneals have pined their hopes to, Crisis teams are the biggest sales job of all time!

i only use two because you only need two. I understand the distaste for people who basically look through a codex and Stelek-spam "good things" as if that was going to win them anything. I know those kinds of things probably kill a lot of stuff in local games but here's something i know about gamer nature: No one likes their cheese moved. The adaptable Generals will see it once, get crushed, and modify their thought process to include this new threat and then the big bad wolf is screwed. I tore through a War Convocation the SECOND time I saw it. I won against a Battle Company th SECOND time i saw it.

Everyone whose incapable of taking their beating initially or even a couple of times with grace and learning from it is going to say the SAME THINGS about Space Wolves pretty soon. And about Tyranids. And Dark Eldar...and whatever else comes along. Yip. Absolutely going to happen. Because losing is so loathesome to some that the thought of it makes them angry. Whatever caused it makes them angry and they never blame themselves, do they?

Losses aren't personal.

That's a lot of text to say "git good".

Martel732 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
At any rate, yes riptides are extremely good and durable for their point, and no, there's not much assault themed armies can do about it except get in assault. They are not, however, unbeatable, especially for marines. Melta, plasma, grav, assault cannons, etc, etc, can all make your life easier.

Not to mention the soft and weak Tau units providing the Riptide all those Markerlight hits it needs to go from powerful to tasteless. But some players always tunnel vision towards the biggest target instead of maybe picking off the small guys first. If you go for an Imperial army's Knight first you are correct - taking it out will disable a lot of the army firepower and it's a big chunk of points. But going for the Tau Riptide first? Why? It's harder to kill than the support units buffing it, and Markerlights are Heavy weapons. Catch the Stealth suits etc that buff the Riptide and it's crippled. Then just win on objectives.

If I can disassemble Tau with my SoB I'd expect anyone else being able to do it too. Especially marines of any flavor that can get Drop Pods from their own Codex. Don't put five combimeltas on those Sternguard, give them flamers and roast some Markerlights!

And other assume that those are somehow free points. You justy breeze right past the cost.

Basically... the Riptide is in essence... a 200 point basilisk that does damage to itself and potentially wont fire, pays more points because its more armored. More or less. and it's about 250-300 points depending on the Markerlights it expends to get high accuracy. riiiiiiight. This is the boogeyman? this thing that can be stopped in melee? its not an Imperial Knight! it's not a Wraith Knight! It's not even close to those in effect. So what is all the angst about?

It is an excellent unit. No one should be denyng it. What do you want Tau Empire generals to do. Win with just Crisis Teams? Are you nuts? of all the unreliable things that Tau Geneals have pined their hopes to, Crisis teams are the biggest sales job of all time!

i only use two because you only need two. I understand the distaste for people who basically look through a codex and Stelek-spam "good things" as if that was going to win them anything. I know those kinds of things probably kill a lot of stuff in local games but here's something i know about gamer nature: No one likes their cheese moved. The adaptable Generals will see it once, get crushed, and modify their thought process to include this new threat and then the big bad wolf is screwed. I tore through a War Convocation the SECOND time I saw it. I won against a Battle Company th SECOND time i saw it.

Everyone whose incapable of taking their beating initially or even a couple of times with grace and learning from it is going to say the SAME THINGS about Space Wolves pretty soon. And about Tyranids. And Dark Eldar...and whatever else comes along. Yip. Absolutely going to happen. Because losing is so loathesome to some that the thought of it makes them angry. Whatever caused it makes them angry and they never blame themselves, do they?

Losses aren't personal.

That's a lot of text to say "git good".

I didn't say git good. I don't like that response. What I AM saying is that people who don't do anything to modify their tactics or their list and would rather tear the other guy down than change are reprehensible. I think that's closer to the mark.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
You mean...models produced by GW with rules written by GW employees at GW HQ and sold through GW sales channels for use with GW games and that are allowed at many (if not every) large 40k event?

No. i mean the ones that say Forge World vs. the ones that don't. Nice try though.

there's nothing in their rules that distinguishes Forgeworld models from anything else...your just choosing to discriminate based on what sales group of GW sells it.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
You mean...models produced by GW with rules written by GW employees at GW HQ and sold through GW sales channels for use with GW games and that are allowed at many (if not every) large 40k event?

No. i mean the ones that say Forge World vs. the ones that don't. Nice try though.

there's nothing in their rules that distinguishes Forgeworld models from anything else...your just choosing to discriminate based on what sales group of GW sells it.

That isn't what I'm choosing to base my "discrimination" on. When you choose to properly state my case on it, we can talk. It isn't relevant to the Riptide discussion other than insofar as generalizations being made about Tau. My warning is to distinguish between the two ways people choose to allow them to be played. And a lot of people don't allow the Forge World models to be played, including the ITC which has banned and/or limited many.

So...

There is, to me, a missing component to your analysis as well. The Riptide is more than uparmored from a Basilisk. It can't be suppressed either. Melta is the primary BA anti-tank weaponry. A drop melta team will almost assuredly suppress a Basilisk. The same team either dies to interceptor or puts a wound or two on the Riptide.

I'm not sure what modifications can be made in a general sense to BA that allows me to survive Riptides that isn't outright list tailoring.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
You mean...models produced by GW with rules written by GW employees at GW HQ and sold through GW sales channels for use with GW games and that are allowed at many (if not every) large 40k event?

No. i mean the ones that say Forge World vs. the ones that don't. Nice try though.

there's nothing in their rules that distinguishes Forgeworld models from anything else...your just choosing to discriminate based on what sales group of GW sells it.

But Tau are the ones being discriminated against

Martel732 wrote:
There is, to me, a missing component to your analysis as well. The Riptide is more than uparmored from a Basilisk. It can't be suppressed either. Melta is the primary BA anti-tank weaponry. A drop melta team will almost assuredly suppress a Basilisk. The same team either dies to interceptor or puts a wound or two on the Riptide.

I'm not sure what modifications can be made in a general sense to BA that allows me to survive Riptides that isn't outright list tailoring.

It actually CAN be suppressed. its not fearless. Also, the Riptide can be killed, you just arent going to cheap shot it. thus... the price. Which is much higher than the Basilisk and was the aforementioned armor. Armor in this case is both in Hull points (wounds) and saves.

No matter the way you look at it, the riptide isn't free. markerlights aren't free. None of its free. So until it somehow can stop you from charging it (it cant, other than the same way every army can so no difference there) stop you from attacking LD (its not fearless) and stop you from punishing it with, say, a D weapon or Blood Angelss missiles and so on... I think the case against it is vastly overstated.

I get that no one likes to lose. I'm not trying to lose. I'm also not sitting here lambasting any particular unit as heresy and casting long shadows over the players who DARE the audacity to field it. Lol.

So I guess I understand and agree 100% when people say its a very good unit. I have exhibited no false modesty on that point. i disagree 100% withthe mis-characterization of it and its players. That's where I'm drawing the line. A blind person could tell you Riptides are good and their Riptide Wing (the discussion point here) is better. Anyone saying otherwise really is lying to you.

It can't be suppressed in a reliable manner is a better way to state it. LD-based attacked are very rare, and catching it in assault is very, very difficult. I'm not talking about cheap shots. Plus, drop melta squads aren't that cheap, because anything marine is not that cheap.

 BoomWolf wrote:
As CSM, you can't fight anything anyway with the sad codex you currently have. It's not unique to the riptide.

For the bazillion time, using a non functional codex as your argument is not a proper argument.

I can put up a decent fight against most 7th edition codices. The 7.5 ones, though, not a bloody chance (unless the opponent brings a quite restrained and/or specially fluffy list).

So the CSM codex is functional, although of course not in an optimal way. And the Riptide is overpowered, it's been since the very day it was introduced to the game.

I can only dream one day Riptides are turned into what they should be, walker vehicles, just to see the Tau fanbase dissolving itself into its own tears.

Martel732 wrote:
It can't be suppressed in a reliable manner is a better way to state it. LD-based attacked are very rare, and catching it in assault is very, very difficult. I'm not talking about cheap shots. Plus, drop melta squads aren't that cheap, because anything marine is not that cheap.

LD attacks actually are not rare. Actually. And catching it assault: also not rare.

So what are you talking about? Are you talking about an army that REFUSES to adopt a strategy that makes it not rare? because thats just you setting YOURSELF up for failure, not the Riptide setting you up for it.

So you now know how to go after a Riptide Wing. useful discussion has been brought to the table. i notice you made no comment on my advice in this regard so maybe scroll back and also yoyoyo i think added some pretty valid things for you to consider.

So consider them.

How are LD attacks not rare?

And it is almost impossible to catch if the Tau player is savvy.

Even podded Malta isn't great.
Typically:
(2/3)(5/6)(2/3) = 20/54, or 10/27.

To get 5 wounds, that averages 13.5 Melta shots, for just a 50% chance to kill the jerk.

So were talking more than a 10man Sternie or FD squad to drop a single Riptide.

Melta Drops don't answer Riptides.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
You mean...models produced by GW with rules written by GW employees at GW HQ and sold through GW sales channels for use with GW games and that are allowed at many (if not every) large 40k event?

No. i mean the ones that say Forge World vs. the ones that don't. Nice try though.

there's nothing in their rules that distinguishes Forgeworld models from anything else...your just choosing to discriminate based on what sales group of GW sells it.

That isn't what I'm choosing to base my "discrimination" on. When you choose to properly state my case on it, we can talk

what..that Forgeworld = fail? That was about the only differentiator you put forward.

It isn't relevant to the Riptide discussion other than insofar as generalizations being made about Tau.

why not? Theyre similar units with similar abilities based on roughly the same chassis and considered close equivalents by most people.

My warning is to distinguish between the two ways people choose to allow them to be played. And a lot of people don't allow the Forge World models to be played, including the ITC which has banned and/or limited many.

The only stuff they restrict is (at least last time i checked) LoW units with lots of ignores cover stuff and pre 6E army lists.

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It can't be suppressed in a reliable manner is a better way to state it. LD-based attacked are very rare, and catching it in assault is very, very difficult. I'm not talking about cheap shots. Plus, drop melta squads aren't that cheap, because anything marine is not that cheap.

LD attacks actually are not rare.

care to mention any that are commonly available, particularly that arent psychic powers? Such attacks are, while not unheard of, some of the rarest in the game.

Actually. And catching it assault: also not rare.

its not impossible, but between its range and Jet move, its not exactly easy.

Martel732 wrote:
How are LD attacks not rare?

And it is almost impossible to catch if the Tau player is savvy.

Oh that would be because anyone taking Telepathy has them accessible. thats how. so do Blood Angels in their Sanguinary Discipline. So do Dark Eldar and DEFINITELY Haemonnculous covens and also Harlequins.

You need more examples? Okay. Eldar. There's a pretty common army with a pretty good access to it.

Aside from this you have: Assault. Every single faction has access to this LD attack.

I also note that Fear is not that uncommon and that certain factions get it quite freely.

So that is how.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vaktathi 679494 8446327 2639c6bd2a42e71422 wrote:
what..that Forgeworld = fail? That was about the only differentiator you put forward.

We've had this discussion, you and I. So don't play obtuse. You know what my points of contention were.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Even podded Malta isn't great.
Typically:
(2/3)(5/6)(2/3) = 20/54, or 10/27.

To get 5 wounds, that averages 13.5 Melta shots, for just a 50% chance to kill the jerk.

So were talking more than a 10man Sternie or FD squad to drop a single Riptide.

Melta Drops don't answer Riptides.

Nope. i never listed it as an option. Also: should you reasonably expect to kill something that is 200 points in one round with ONE unit? Most things like that dont die so easily. this isnt new or unique to a Riptide.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cut and pasted from the other thread for reference:

Here's a fact: when dealing with Riptide Wings there is one sure fire thing they don't like, right? Attacks on their Leadership and assaults. Since we are talking about Riptide Wings and YOU are bringing up Blood Angels, i am assuming you want to know what to do about Riptide Wings with Blood Angels.

So if that is actually what you want to know, i am actually observing that the AV 13 helps them stand up very well to the Riptide when it tries to end you. Riptide guns come in two varieties and they basically both need 6's to hurt the Dread (unlss they want to do the gets hot thing or Nova Reactor thing in which case you may get free wounds on the beast). Extra Armor will help a lot so you don't get stuck in place on the drop of course. Worst case he' got a 50/50 chance of taking a hull point off IF he doesn't scatter. So its actually NOT the worst suggestion ever for handling some Riptides.

Fear of the Darkness will help you drive off a Riptide potentially. It is certainly no guarantee, but it cannot be discounted either as a tool.

Your Vanguard Veterans can all have Grav pistols if you wished and when they drop from the Storm Raven, this can be pretty darn conclusive if you include a couple Thunderhammers or Powerfists into the mix. You have to stand the StormRaven up for a round and that can be a challenge if the enemy has enough anti-air. An interesting second option here is a Rhino going full out round one, and using the Wings of Sanguinus power on the Vanguard after they move. this gives them 18" movement in round 1, which should set them up for a round 2 charge as good as any the Storm Raven could have delivered. Strategic Warlord Traits could make this easier as well. So you could go one or both ways with it.

The Blood Angels also have Feel No Pain generators as you know and when one is near Mephiston, je can't be instant kill'd by a Riptide Wing. He also is an independent character thatr can be in the Vanguard and leading them to tank the Instant death stuff with FnP. he has access to Biomancy as well which could be useful o nthe approach. Again, this would be if you are eschewing the Storm Raven. If you loaded just him and a Dreadnought in the Storm Raven, he can survive being blown out and proceed to terrorize or join the Vanguard unit later.

And the Storm Raven is plenty man enough to do damage to the Riptide Wing AND they are Concussion weapons so doubly useful against Wraith Knights!

Again, just some thoughts on it. I think I would have as my anti-Riptide Wing core:

4 Furioso's
Mephiston (Sword of Sanguinis for ending those silly Riptides? Yes please!)
2 Librarians (level 2 and more Force Weapons)
Sanguinary Priest
Storm Raven
4 units of troops
5 Drop Pods
1 Rhino
10 Vanguard Veterans (Grav pistols x5, Thunder Hammer, Power Fist)

No idea what those points look like, but those are good tools for killing a Riptide Wing and for that matter, other things also.

If you want guarantees, I'm fresh out. But that's a lot of Force Weapons and high end high armor killing machines. A pretty good amount of Obsec. Good amount of options for deployment, enough antitank to choke a horse in there most likely.

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
How are LD attacks not rare?

And it is almost impossible to catch if the Tau player is savvy.

Oh that would be because anyone taking Telepathy has them accessible. thats how. so do Blood Angels in their Sanguinary Discipline. So do Dark Eldar and DEFINITELY Haemonnculous covens and also Harlequins.

You need more examples? Okay. Eldar. There's a pretty common army with a pretty good access to it.

Aside from this you have: Assault. Every single faction has access to this LD attack.

I also note that Fear is not that uncommon and that certain factions get it quite freely.

So that is how.

To beat a broken army, take a broken army?

Cut and pasted from the other thread for reference:

Here's a fact: when dealing with Riptide Wings there is one sure fire thing they don't like, right? Attacks on their Leadership and assaults. Since we are talking about Riptide Wings and YOU are bringing up Blood Angels, i am assuming you want to know what to do about Riptide Wings with Blood Angels.

So if that is actually what you want to know, i am actually observing that the AV 13 helps them stand up very well to the Riptide when it tries to end you. Riptide guns come in two varieties and they basically both need 6's to hurt the Dread (unlss they want to do the gets hot thing or Nova Reactor thing in which case you may get free wounds on the beast). Extra Armor will help a lot so you don't get stuck in place on the drop of course. Worst case he' got a 50/50 chance of taking a hull point off IF he doesn't scatter. So its actually NOT the worst suggestion ever for handling some Riptides.

Fear of the Darkness will help you drive off a Riptide potentially. It is certainly no guarantee, but it cannot be discounted either as a tool.

Your Vanguard Veterans can all have Grav pistols if you wished and when they drop from the Storm Raven, this can be pretty darn conclusive if you include a couple Thunderhammers or Powerfists into the mix. You have to stand the StormRaven up for a round and that can be a challenge if the enemy has enough anti-air. An interesting second option here is a Rhino going full out round one, and using the Wings of Sanguinus power on the Vanguard after they move. this gives them 18" movement in round 1, which should set them up for a round 2 charge as good as any the Storm Raven could have delivered. Strategic Warlord Traits could make this easier as well. So you could go one or both ways with it.

The Blood Angels also have Feel No Pain generators as you know and when one is near Mephiston, je can't be instant kill'd by a Riptide Wing. He also is an independent character thatr can be in the Vanguard and leading them to tank the Instant death stuff with FnP. he has access to Biomancy as well which could be useful o nthe approach. Again, this would be if you are eschewing the Storm Raven. If you loaded just him and a Dreadnought in the Storm Raven, he can survive being blown out and proceed to terrorize or join the Vanguard unit later.

And the Storm Raven is plenty man enough to do damage to the Riptide Wing AND they are Concussion weapons so doubly useful against Wraith Knights!

Again, just some thoughts on it. I think I would have as my anti-Riptide Wing core:

4 Furioso's
Mephiston (Sword of Sanguinis for ending those silly Riptides? Yes please!)
2 Librarians (level 2 and more Force Weapons)
Sanguinary Priest
Storm Raven
4 units of troops
5 Drop Pods
1 Rhino
10 Vanguard Veterans (Grav pistols x5, Thunder Hammer, Power Fist)

No idea what those points look like, but those are good tools for killing a Riptide Wing and for that matter, other things also.

If you want guarantees, I'm fresh out. But that's a lot of Force Weapons and high end high armor killing machines. A pretty good amount of Obsec. Good amount of options for deployment, enough antitank to choke a horse in there most likely.

Jancoran, the problem is look at what you'[re dedicating to kill three Riptides. That's ignoring the other 1400 points of the army. Honestly, you've a better shot of just ignoring the Riptide, killing all the squishies, and camping objectives than killing him, unless you have Psychic out the wazuu.

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
How are LD attacks not rare?

And it is almost impossible to catch if the Tau player is savvy.

Oh that would be because anyone taking Telepathy has them accessible. thats how. so do Blood Angels in their Sanguinary Discipline. So do Dark Eldar and DEFINITELY Haemonnculous covens and also Harlequins.

You need more examples? Okay. Eldar. There's a pretty common army with a pretty good access to it.

...this is a very thin list...going by this it certainly sounds like Ld attacks are rare, a couple psychic powers and a couple niche supplements that primarily jive with the ones that already have access to said psychic powers...

Aside from this you have: Assault. Every single faction has access to this LD attack.

so we're reclassifying assault as an LD attck now...?

I also note that Fear is not that uncommon and that certain factions get it quite freely.

which doesnt do anything to affect the riptide until you actually catch it, and with its low WS isnt doing much of anything even if thy fail the LD test.

We've had this discussion, you and I. So don't play obtuse. You know what my points of contention were.

everything apparently, except none that couldnt be applied with the exact same logic to tons of stuff you didnt seem to mind, after which you'd typically just evade after such was pointed out

Much like you are now...speaking of being obtuse...

Jan,
I know you didn't argue it. And when it comes to the current "7.5" level, I agree with your argument. But somebody did suggest it, so I wanted to point that out.

The units we are talking about are in the 300-400 point range, but still, on average, do a little less than 4 wounds assuming no FnP.

There are answers in the current meta. Someone suggested Melta pods was one of them, but it is not.