Riptide status

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**Martel732**

master of ordinance wrote:
pumaman1 wrote:
Yoyoyo wrote:
I imagine enough Mutilators could counter Riptides pretty easily

the slow and purposeful melee units? but.. how? deepstriking in 9 units of them, and no enemy movement!? if ever there was a unit with rules expressly to harm itself.. you are assault unit, who cannot move more than 6", and you need to catch up to a unit that also has a 6" move, and a 2d6" jet thrust.

i suppose, yes, but you used the word "enough", so just use more (~ 10 units of 3 mutilators in 2000 points)

Ogryns.
Because at least the Mutilators have decent armour.

On a serious note though, there are a lot of armies which struggle with Riptides and most of them are the older ones: Orks, Imperial Guard, Blood Angels, Chaos and Sisters. These armies lack the sheer amount of cheap amassed fire or cheesy power units/wargear with which to take the Riptide down. Whilst SM's have Grave, Necrons have fancy weapon X, Space Wolves have Hellfrost, Wulfen and Thunderwolf cavalry and Eldar have Eldar, these older armies have very little that can counter a Riptide. That is where the complaints really start coming in, from players whom have to pay through the nose for a single Riptide escue thing and even then it is still no where near as good (Case example: Imperial Guard and the Malcador chassis tanks). To us of the weaker codexes the Riptide is criminally good and very much overpowered for what it costs.

Just putting things into perspective here.

Even grav becomes insufficient if the riptide has cover.

**Vaktathi**

Indeed, and a riptide in full defense mode (3++, FNP) will likely survive even a round of hate from a full Gravcent squad dumping 30 "wounds on 2's with rerolls" AP2 shots into it.

**pumaman1**

MY 2nd army, and currently most played enemy is IG, between hell hounds/wyverns destroying everything i love turn 1 (markerlights) and the wall of front armor 14, i've yet to win.
given i play down my army, because its more fun to bring piranhas and flyers, even if they rarely pan out.

sisters have those pipe organ tanks putting out d6 real good shots, more of those will destroy riptides.

orks and CSM, and apparently BA, they need re-work, or a tyranid-esque model release.

Ig (for a price) can bring either enough bodies, las cannons in corners in cover, or vendettas to still be ok. or paskisher. I'd like for them to get a good 7.5 update. but if mont'ka shows much, its that they are not getting a significant (any) upgrade.

**Martel732**

Vaktathi wrote:
Indeed, and a riptide in full defense mode (3++, FNP) will likely survive even a round of hate from a full Gravcent squad dumping 30 "wounds on 2's with rerolls" AP2 shots into it.

It doesn't even need that. It just needs a ruins.

**Jancoran**

Martel732 wrote:
Jancoran wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
pumaman1 wrote:
Just so i can understand, is the problem that you can't take out the riptide in 1 turn, or can't take out the riptide in 1 turn with roughly equivalent or less points? because outside of silver platter opportunities, the riptide usually cant kill it's points worth in a turn either. to drop a unit in 1 turn, you should have to devote more points than the target.

The real problem is I can't often kill a Riptide over the course of an entire game. They are often completely immortal.

Seriously Martel... You need to play another faction so you can find something else to complain about. It just sems that no matter what thread you are in, your responses literally come down to this: "I am miserable and my Blood anfels suck and there's no hope for me".

Play another faction. It can only improve the variety of your responses.

I'd never give gw that much money at this point. I'm super hesitant to get a single knight.

I guess you are having problems coming up with clever solutions for ba?

No. I already gave you one for Riptides. Hopefully you read it. I am continuing to work on the Blood Angel thing but it takes some time to absorb the codex and I run a business, and I dont play Marines as often, not even close. So i am having to think through it a bit as far as an all comers list.

But you need to calm down about it and start allying in the things you lack if its truly an issue. I understand being frustrated. i dont understand the unremitting mention of dissatisfaction. You just need to chill and I will give you my version of help on the matter. whether you choose to take it will be another story but I am still offering it. I will PM you when I am done pondering it.

**Yoyoyo**

pumaman1 wrote:
the slow and purposeful melee units? but.. how? deepstriking in 9 units of them, and no enemy movement!? if ever there was a unit with rules expressly to harm itself.. you are assault unit, who cannot move more than 6", and you need to catch up to a unit that also has a 6" move, and a 2d6" jet thrust.

i suppose, yes, but you used the word "enough", so just use more (~ 10 units of 3 mutilators in 2000 points)

Mutilators are hilarious, VP pressure can force targets into range. We saw one punch out a Stormraven in the Mutilator thread. Lol.

They don't need to be fast as they can saturate an area when deployed solo. Even more hilariously, Riptides suck against them. SMS basically pings off T5/2+, the IA can't one-shot them, and they still get a 5++ save. Lol.

TL-SMS (assume BS3) : 4(3/4)(1/2)(1/6) = 0.25
IA Blast (assume hit) : 1(5/6)(2/3) = 0.55

So it's going to take 400-600 pts of Riptides to remove a 61pt unit. Crisis Suits aren't so hot either.

2x TL-Fusion : 2(3/4)(5/6)(2/3) = 0.83
2x TL-Plasma : 4(3/4)(2/3)(2/3) = 1.33

I was joking in my reply above but Mutilators have a lot of value that's not immediately apparent. It's entirely based around MSU tactics, rather than the statline or special rules of the unit.

**Martel732**

I don't know my opponent ahead of time. I can't use specialized solutions. I could draw Necrons, and then those dreads look really, really sad.

I'm beginning to lean towards more storm shields as a more generalized solution. At 2000, I can put a lot of storm shields in an archangel sanguine wing formation.

**Yoyoyo**

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know my opponent ahead of time. I can't use specialized solutions. I could draw Necrons, and then those dreads look really, really sad.

I think you need to get creative, BA is more and more outgunned with every release.

Null Deployment to stay off the board is good, staying in the air to minimize incoming fire is good.

That 3x Stormraven formation is a nice start but there's not a ton of points left for punchy units.

DC Dreadnoughts would certainly be effective if they make it in.

**Arson Fire**

A little earlier in the thread someone was suggesting pinning psychic powers and weapons as an answer to riptides.
You can't pin a riptide. Monstrous creatures can never go to ground. Voluntarily or otherwise.

**Martel732**

Yoyoyo wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I don't know my opponent ahead of time. I can't use specialized solutions. I could draw Necrons, and then those dreads look really, really sad.

I think you need to get creative, BA is more and more outgunned with every release.

Null Deployment to stay off the board is good, staying in the air to minimize incoming fire is good.

That 3x Stormraven formation is a nice start but there's not a ton of points left for punchy units.

DC Dreadnoughts would certainly be effective if they make it in.

Furiosos are better in general, because of front AV 13.

**Jancoran**

Yes Furiosos REALLY bends the math of Riptides. An excellent choice to go after them with.

Take 4. Stir. Call me in the morning. Goooood unit. And you can spam them like other people spam their power units. hehehe. I do like those Furioso's. Once they give them the upgraded attacks.... Wow. I'm honestly surprised they haven't FAQ'd that for all dreads for now just so they can be consistent if nothing else.

**Martel732**

Jancoran wrote:
Yes Furiosos REALLY bends the math of Riptides. An excellent choice to go after them with.

Take 4. Stir. Call me in the morning. Goooood unit. And you can spam them like other people spam their power units. hehehe. I do like those Furioso's. Once they give them the upgraded attacks.... Wow. I'm honestly surprised they haven't FAQ'd that for all dreads for now just so they can be consistent if nothing else.

Dude they're vehicles. The get hped out like little bitches every game. Furiosos are not a good general solution. Eldar outright laugh at them as they hp them out on their side armor. Or step on them with a WK. If vehicles and walkers weren't ass terrible in 7.5, I'd agree with you.

**Yoyoyo**

How about 3x Furiosos embarked in Stormravens that enter on T1?

**reevesshady**

I'm always a fan of the Shadowseer technique. I took down a Wraith Knight with the psychic power that does a leadership roll off until they win or you tie. Freakshow tactics are needed but if you have a 10 and they have a 6, you have a hard time losing. It might take 15 minutes of dice rolling, but chances are they will lose.

**Martel732**

Yoyoyo wrote:
How about 3x Furiosos embarked in Stormravens that enter on T1?

Add them to Angel's Fury? Maybe. I feel like most non-Tau lists wouldn't care about this, though. I know I wouldn't as a BA player.

**Jancoran**

Martel732 wrote:
Jancoran wrote:
Yes Furiosos REALLY bends the math of Riptides. An excellent choice to go after them with.

Take 4. Stir. Call me in the morning. Goooood unit. And you can spam them like other people spam their power units. hehehe. I do like those Furioso's. Once they give them the upgraded attacks.... Wow. I'm honestly surprised they haven't FAQ'd that for all dreads for now just so they can be consistent if nothing else.

Dude they're vehicles. The get hped out like little bitches every game. Furiosos are not a good general solution. Eldar outright laugh at them as they hp them out on their side armor. Or step on them with a WK. If vehicles and walkers weren't ass terrible in 7.5, I'd agree with you.

Dont move the goal post. We're talking about Riptides. Thats what you said you wanted help with.

**Ashiraya**

So you're saying to list tailor?

**pumaman1**

Yoyoyo wrote:
pumaman1 wrote:
the slow and purposeful melee units? but.. how? deepstriking in 9 units of them, and no enemy movement!? if ever there was a unit with rules expressly to harm itself.. you are assault unit, who cannot move more than 6", and you need to catch up to a unit that also has a 6" move, and a 2d6" jet thrust.

i suppose, yes, but you used the word "enough", so just use more (~ 10 units of 3 mutilators in 2000 points)

Mutilators are hilarious, VP pressure can force targets into range. We saw one punch out a Stormraven in the Mutilator thread. Lol.

They don't need to be fast as they can saturate an area when deployed solo. Even more hilariously, Riptides suck against them. SMS basically pings off T5/2+, the IA can't one-shot them, and they still get a 5++ save. Lol.

TL-SMS (assume BS3) : 4(3/4)(1/2)(1/6) = 0.25
IA Blast (assume hit) : 1(5/6)(2/3) = 0.55

So it's going to take 400-600 pts of Riptides to remove a 61pt unit. Crisis Suits aren't so hot either.

2x TL-Fusion : 2(3/4)(5/6)(2/3) = 0.83
2x TL-Plasma : 4(3/4)(2/3)(2/3) = 1.33

I was joking in my reply above but Mutilators have a lot of value that's not immediately apparent. It's entirely based around MSU tactics, rather than the statline or special rules of the unit.

the riptide wont use blast, they'll us the 3 s7ap2 shots each, and can also bring TL rapid fire (2 hits) plasma at S6. or fusion at TL fusion as s8 ap1.
To your credit the SMS is the most versatile and most common, 30" no LOW ignore cover s5 is all solid

**Martel732**

Jancoran wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Jancoran wrote:
Yes Furiosos REALLY bends the math of Riptides. An excellent choice to go after them with.

Take 4. Stir. Call me in the morning. Goooood unit. And you can spam them like other people spam their power units. hehehe. I do like those Furioso's. Once they give them the upgraded attacks.... Wow. I'm honestly surprised they haven't FAQ'd that for all dreads for now just so they can be consistent if nothing else.

Dude they're vehicles. The get hped out like little bitches every game. Furiosos are not a good general solution. Eldar outright laugh at them as they hp them out on their side armor. Or step on them with a WK. If vehicles and walkers weren't ass terrible in 7.5, I'd agree with you.

Dont move the goal post. We're talking about Riptides. Thats what you said you wanted help with.

Not exactly. I've mentioned more than once on here that I have no foreknowledge of opponents. I need to be able to deal with Riptides without knowing about them ahead of time. I would never use your recommended list in a general sense. Because walkers suck.

**pumaman1**

Martel732 wrote:
Jancoran wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Jancoran wrote:
Yes Furiosos REALLY bends the math of Riptides. An excellent choice to go after them with.

Take 4. Stir. Call me in the morning. Goooood unit. And you can spam them like other people spam their power units. hehehe. I do like those Furioso's. Once they give them the upgraded attacks.... Wow. I'm honestly surprised they haven't FAQ'd that for all dreads for now just so they can be consistent if nothing else.

Dude they're vehicles. The get hped out like little bitches every game. Furiosos are not a good general solution. Eldar outright laugh at them as they hp them out on their side armor. Or step on them with a WK. If vehicles and walkers weren't ass terrible in 7.5, I'd agree with you.

Dont move the goal post. We're talking about Riptides. Thats what you said you wanted help with.

Not exactly. I've mentioned more than once on here that I have no foreknowledge of opponents. I need to be able to deal with Riptides without knowing about them ahead of time. I would never use your recommended list in a general sense. Because walkers suck.

Now Martel, if you know tau is playing at all, or even possible, plan on 1 or more riptides. Either how to destroy them with 600 pts worth in 1 turn, or to tie them up/ignore then with 200 points. There is no surprise a tau player is bringing a riptide.

**Martel732**

I don't know what army faction my opponent has ahead of time. It could be anything.

**Jancoran**

Ashiraya wrote:
So you're saying to list tailor?

Lol. Someone asks a direct question and answering it gets this response? Are you kidding me?

**Martel732**

Jancoran wrote:
Ashiraya wrote:
So you're saying to list tailor?

Lol. Someone asks a direct question and answering it gets this response? Are you kidding me?

I guess I didn't phrase my question properly. My bad. I'm guessing a generalized approach is going to take a lot more time.

**Jancoran**

Martel732 wrote:
Jancoran wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Jancoran wrote:
Yes Furiosos REALLY bends the math of Riptides. An excellent choice to go after them with.

Take 4. Stir. Call me in the morning. Goooood unit. And you can spam them like other people spam their power units. hehehe. I do like those Furioso's. Once they give them the upgraded attacks.... Wow. I'm honestly surprised they haven't FAQ'd that for all dreads for now just so they can be consistent if nothing else.

Dude they're vehicles. The get hped out like little bitches every game. Furiosos are not a good general solution. Eldar outright laugh at them as they hp them out on their side armor. Or step on them with a WK. If vehicles and walkers weren't ass terrible in 7.5, I'd agree with you.

Dont move the goal post. We're talking about Riptides. Thats what you said you wanted help with.

Not exactly. I've mentioned more than once on here that I have no foreknowledge of opponents. I need to be able to deal with Riptides without knowing about them ahead of time. I would never use your recommended list in a general sense. Because walkers suck.

How could you possibly create a list without accounting for the possibility of a Wraith KNight or a Riptide? You won't. So you REALLY need to make sure you can handle both. and the list core i gave you really does.

**Martel732**

Jancoran wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Jancoran wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Jancoran wrote:
Yes Furiosos REALLY bends the math of Riptides. An excellent choice to go after them with.

Take 4. Stir. Call me in the morning. Goooood unit. And you can spam them like other people spam their power units. hehehe. I do like those Furioso's. Once they give them the upgraded attacks.... Wow. I'm honestly surprised they haven't FAQ'd that for all dreads for now just so they can be consistent if nothing else.

Dude they're vehicles. The get hped out like little bitches every game. Furiosos are not a good general solution. Eldar outright laugh at them as they hp them out on their side armor. Or step on them with a WK. If vehicles and walkers weren't ass terrible in 7.5, I'd agree with you.

Dont move the goal post. We're talking about Riptides. Thats what you said you wanted help with.

Not exactly. I've mentioned more than once on here that I have no foreknowledge of opponents. I need to be able to deal with Riptides without knowing about them ahead of time. I would never use your recommended list in a general sense. Because walkers suck.

How could you possibly create a list without accounting for the possibility of a Wraith KNight or a Riptide? You won't. So you REALLY need to make sure you can handle both. and the list core i gave you really does.

You really think so? That list looks pretty stinky vs Eldar to me. Or anyone that happens to have a few meltas laying around.

**Jancoran**

Martel732 wrote:

You really think so? That list looks pretty stinky vs Eldar to me.

How would you know? You haven't even tried. Terrain and tactics are a thing to. Some list on paper wont do it FOR you but yeah. i think that CORE is solid for the kind of Eldar and Tau opponents you are quite likely to face.

I havent done the points on it or added anything to it so those are just the raw tools I would think about starting with. i am sure with more time with the codex i can efine it down to be mnore specific but you can no doubt take that core and work with it.

**Martel732**

Jancoran wrote:
Martel732 wrote:

You really think so? That list looks pretty stinky vs Eldar to me.

How would you know? You haven't even tried. Terrain and tactics are a thing to. Some list on paper wont do it FOR you but yeah. i think that CORE is solid for the kind of Eldar and Tau opponents you are quite likely to face.

I havent done the points on it or added anything to it so those are just the raw tools I would think about starting with. i am sure with more time with the codex i can efine it down to be mnore specific but you can no doubt take that core and work with it.

Because I know how fast Furiosos die in 7th ed. Your core is exploiting the fact that the IA and HYMP are relatively inefficient vs AV 13. Eldar don't have this property, and really neither do most Imperial lists. Your proposed list would get wrecked in a BA mirror match vs a standard BA list of the same point value.

In fact, i ran double Furioso for a long until hps came along and took their balls away.

**Yoyoyo**

pumaman1 wrote:
the riptide wont use blast, they'll us the 3 s7ap2 shots each, and can also bring TL rapid fire (2 hits) plasma at S6. or fusion at TL fusion as s8 ap1.
To your credit the SMS is the most versatile and most common, 30" no LOW ignore cover s5 is all solid

Oops! Good point. For comparison:

IA Blast (assume hit) : 1(5/6)(2/3) = 0.55
BS3 IA : 3(1/2)(5/6)(2/3) = 0.83
BS2 IA : 3(1/3)(5/6)(2/3) = 0.55

The formation bonus definitely helps out a little.

**Jancoran**

Martel732 wrote:
Jancoran wrote:
Martel732 wrote:

You really think so? That list looks pretty stinky vs Eldar to me.

How would you know? You haven't even tried. Terrain and tactics are a thing to. Some list on paper wont do it FOR you but yeah. i think that CORE is solid for the kind of Eldar and Tau opponents you are quite likely to face.

I havent done the points on it or added anything to it so those are just the raw tools I would think about starting with. i am sure with more time with the codex i can efine it down to be mnore specific but you can no doubt take that core and work with it.

Because I know how fast Furiosos die in 7th ed. Your core is exploiting the fact that the IA and HYMP are relatively inefficient vs AV 13. Eldar don't have this property, and really neither do most Imperial lists. Your proposed list would get wrecked in a BA mirror match vs a standard BA list of the same point value.

Actually...AV 13 isnt that easy for them to break and even if they do... you have a lot more than they have shots that can do it.

i think you should try it before telling me Im wrong. but just to prove a point maybe after I do the stupid Batrep i have to do for Mutilators (I havent forgotten) i will do this one. Its so much work to track someone down with the right army and all that but Maybe Ill just proxy some stuff. Who cares if it gets the point across right?

**Martel732**

Jancoran wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Jancoran wrote:
Martel732 wrote:

You really think so? That list looks pretty stinky vs Eldar to me.

How would you know? You haven't even tried. Terrain and tactics are a thing to. Some list on paper wont do it FOR you but yeah. i think that CORE is solid for the kind of Eldar and Tau opponents you are quite likely to face.

I havent done the points on it or added anything to it so those are just the raw tools I would think about starting with. i am sure with more time with the codex i can efine it down to be mnore specific but you can no doubt take that core and work with it.

Because I know how fast Furiosos die in 7th ed. Your core is exploiting the fact that the IA and HYMP are relatively inefficient vs AV 13. Eldar don't have this property, and really neither do most Imperial lists. Your proposed list would get wrecked in a BA mirror match vs a standard BA list of the same point value.

Actually...AV 13 isnt that easy for them to break and even if they do... you have a lot more than they have shots that can do it.

i think you should try it before telling me Im wrong. but just to prove a point maybe after I do the stupid Batrep i have to do for Mutilators (I havent forgotten) i will do this one. Its so much work to track someone down with the right army and all that but Maybe Ill just proxy some stuff. Who cares if it gets the point across right?

I've used Furiosos a LOT more than than anyone talking to you about Mulilators. Big, big, BIG difference. If the Furioso had AV 13 sides, I would be more inclined to agree with you. But it's really easy for Eldar to D weapon them to death or hp them out with scatterlasers on the side armor. There's a reason I really detest the scatterlaser. It singlehandedly ruins such a strategy against Eldar. Because you are right; they don't have enough D-weapons, but they have more than enough mobile scatterlasers with 3+ armor.

Unfortunately, AV 13 is very easy for most armies to break in 7.5. IK get a pass because they have a 4++ shield and they can come in a list where anti-infantry weapons are literally useless. That stresses the anti-tank resources of most lists to the breaking point. Furiosos don't.