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Here's my problem. You're using Graviton to say that a Dreadknight will die quickly but not a Riptide, but here's what your forgetting; most sources of Graviton are either in Drop Pods, Scouting up in Rhinos or using Gate of Infinity to teleport around. The same rules apply to both the Dreadknight and a Riptide on a standard 6x4 table where distances close FAST. Additionally, many players use their Riptides as forward scouting units to grab objectives because they are the natural tanks of the army, ergo, they will be up in the midfield quite often as much of the rest of a Tau army can't wither firepower like Riptides can. Now, going off that train of thought, what are the stat differences between the two? Dreadknight: T6 W4 2+ 5++ Riptide: T6 W5 2+ 5++ The former can freely give itself a 4++, the Riptide can risk losing a wound to get a 3++ and pay a lot of points for a further 5+ Feel No Pain. If you make use of line of sight blocking terrain, the Dreadknight is also smaller than the Riptide. Honestly, I'm not sure what the hell your argument is other than "waaaaaaaaah".

Caederes wrote:
Here's my problem. You're using Graviton to say that a Dreadknight will die quickly but not a Riptide, but here's what your forgetting; most sources of Graviton are either in Drop Pods, Scouting up in Rhinos or using Gate of Infinity to teleport around. The same rules apply to both the Dreadknight and a Riptide on a standard 6x4 table where distances close FAST. Additionally, many players use their Riptides as forward scouting units to grab objectives because they are the natural tanks of the army, ergo, they will be up in the midfield quite often as much of the rest of a Tau army can't wither firepower like Riptides can. Now, going off that train of thought, what are the stat differences between the two? Dreadknight: T6 W4 2+ 5++ Riptide: T6 W5 2+ 5++ The former can freely give itself a 4++, the Riptide can risk losing a wound to get a 3++ and pay a lot of points for a further 5+ Feel No Pain. If you make use of line of sight blocking terrain, the Dreadknight is also smaller than the Riptide. Honestly, I'm not sure what the hell your argument is other than "waaaaaaaaah".

I have never seen someone use Riptides the way you describe for the exact reason you describe.

You can drop or scout or what have you, but the grav wielding units have to survive interceptor at the very least. Yes, centstar is a thing. BA seem to be fresh out of those though. Or grav cannons entirely. You'll never kill these things with regular grav guns.

And the dreadknight runs afoul of more than grav. It catches every plasma and meltagun, too if it tries to come assault. Weapons that never get to fire at Riptides because they die before they get within range.

Also, Tau don't need early objectives. They just shoot your army to death and win by tabling or by walking onto empty objectives.

Also, killing the High Yield Missile pods is possible. so I mean... Do that first if that's where you see the most phantoms.

Story from the front lines:

My Adepta Sororitas Rhinos typically carry Hunter Killer missiles. Fired nine (edit: 8 i believe) of them off and killed the Boradsides on the way in. First Blood. Shoulda took Drones. He didn't. Relied on his Aegis to protect them and kept his commander back to give them the ignores cover shenanigans. I get why he did it but... Also killed a Riptide turn one with melta shots and other shots.

Got smacked around by the two remaining Riptides (as you'd expect), but most were in Rhinos so it wasn't bad, mostly hull points, but Crisis teams and Fire Warriors finished blowing some Dominion out. Didn't care, they were close enough at that point and made their morale. Since it was hull pointed out, he couldnt get his flood of Ethereal fueled shots on the actual Dominion like he was hoping.

I went in and swarmed the Non-Riptides turn three after hiding behind Rhinos to flame/melta the Markerlights and Crisis teams to death in round two (angled them 45 degrees basically so only my targets could see me to the extent possible) and the Conclave came out to make ready in turn two. That was the sphincter moment. A lot of decisions were hinging on whether or not they could take some fire. if yes, then assault and be merry. if no, Kill the Riptides and use tanks to obscure me, while my Heavy flmers came to do their grisly work a second time.. So I had the Eternal Warrior Canoness join up with them (Battle Conclave) to protect them just in case and the one with 2+ armor up front so that I could pass wounds back to the other one if the STr on it was too high. It's a fantastic use of a Canoness if you want to have your conclave survive a round like that. The 2+ armor one then split off when the assault occurred to tie up more stuff and take more overwatch, which worked well.

At the end of the game he only had two wounded Riptides alive (mostly wounds he did to himself) plus a falling back Crisis team (effectively destroyed). I was similarly torn up but I had pinned him so thoroughly that my few remnant found it easy to get to objectives eventually over the course of time.

Going in armored like that was huge for my chances. I needed the armor to hide me when i popped out (or was forced out). Dominion scouting was, obviously ,awesome because it took a lot of pressure off other elements and kind of forced fire on them. The Retributor Squad was frightening when it got its chance to shine because I had bracket'd him in with only his riptides and eventually a Crisis team ranging free (admittedly a fair number of points there, but I'm just saying)

The Crisis team that deep struck behind me did damage but was too late to do enough and eventually ran.

Thinking overall, He had to make extremely tough choices about targets. On one side of his line were four heavy flamers that just scoured his lines, In the middle the inevitable Conclave and Canness assaults with Dominion. or on the left center were Dominion that could kill more Riptides. Crappy choices.

I think if he had gone after the Battle Conclave Rhino first and risked his Riptides more, he would have lost all the Riptides but he might have had a better chance overall of stopping my charges turn three. Hard to tell which way was better but i think he saw the Riptides as his money shot and losing one in turn one before it could Nova Charge its shields? It probably influenced him to try and preserve the Riptides as long as possible. Once the Canoness was in the Conclave unit, I knew Dominion would be his target but you never know what a guy might try.

The Battle Conclave was great. I slew two units on the initial charge and they stayed in combat because of another Ethereal casting his spell of stubborness.

Anywho, just passing on some practical application. Interesting test case.

How did 9 HKM kill a Broadside unit?

9 missiles, 3+ to hit, 2+ to wound, 2+ armor?

Less than one wound inflicted on average?

I don't remember what T value Broadsides have but even if it is T4 for ID it's still not very impressive.

Caederes wrote:

Spoiler:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
When I army swapped with Tau, I won most of my CCs. It's pretty easy for a Ritpide to step on two DC or four tac marines.

Yeah eventually lol. On average you will kill 1 per turn. I would gladly have 4 of my tac marines tie up a riptide for several turns lol

The tac marines only lasted two assault phases, so I didn't even miss a shooting phase with the Riptide.

Again, that was from your experience. But on average, only 1 would die per turn. Tying up a 225 point model with less than 60 points of models for the majority of the game is well worth it

WS2 and 3 attacks at I2 is terrible, even with Str 6 AP2

That is funny...cause if you just make that WS3 you just described Tyranid MCs...

Just saying, just because the Riptide doesn't compete with a Dreadknight, doesn't mean it is completely worthelss in CC. Tac Marines are actually one of the best things to tie a Riptide up in CC with because ATSKNF is amazing at just keeping it in place stepping on a marine or two for a couple of turns...but seriously, if Tac Marines get into CC with a Riptide the Tau player has failed at some point or all the marine player has left are Tac Marines, so it isn't really a loss.

EDIT: Just to give an idea;

A Trygon has WS3 S6 I4 5A 3+, Riptide has WS2 S6 I2 3A 2+/5++(5+++)

Against each other, Trygon will win in CC more than likely, but against Tac Marines the Trygon is more likely to die to Krak Grenades and is only doing on average 3 wounds to the Riptides 1.5 wounds. Is this acceptable when you compare what is supposed to be a CC MC vs a pure ranged MC? You are going to get a hell of a lot more mileage out of the Riptide lobbing pie plates and cleaning up small units on the charge than you are with the Trygon and the Trygon cost more points. This becomes less favorable if you compare it to other Tyranid MCs....

EDIT:

Also, just going back to an old point. Are people seriously suggesting that you pin a Riptide? I suggest you go take a look at the rules again...

Not to rain on your parade or anything, but a Trygon is Weapon Skill 5 and has 6 Attacks base - 5 on its profile and then plus one for having two close combat weapons for a total of 6 base - so it's actually doing 4 wounds on average to Tactical Marines.

Also, the comparisons between Dreadknights and Riptides are amusing to say the least. Without Markerlight support, a Dreadknight is far and away superior to a Riptide at shooting; a Torrent Strength 6 AP4 template that can be on a model that can do a once-per-game 30" move and will usually be moving 12" is brutal, and 6 Strength 7 AP4 Rending shots are better at tank hunting than the Ion Accelerator too while the optional Strength 7 AP4 Rending Large Blast is nice.

Yeah, sorry you are right. I forgot the WS5 but I did account for the 6 attacks, I just didn't write it down. Newborn baby has left me super tired, but still the Trygon is killing just 2.5 Tac Marines more than the Riptide in CC and that to me is a bit silly. If we were to compare it to things like the Haruspex, Carnifex, Tervigon, and the Malceptor it gets so much worse for the Tyranid MCs. A good comparison to the Ripdtide for Tyranids would be the Exocrine and Tyrannofex because those are the two units that are closest to the same role as the Riptide. The Exocrine has WS3 S6 5W I3 3A 3+, looks fairly similar to the Riptide but is less survivable by a not insignificant margin. The Tyrannofex is WS3 S6 6W I2 3A 2+ so it is even closer to the Riptide stat line but it has no invul save, no access to FNP outside of psychic support which is honestly to be expected in a Tyranid list if the Tyranid player gets it on the roll, and not a single weapon even close to the HBC let alone the IA.

Now I do think that the Riptide needs a nerf, mostly to its defensive abilities rather than its offensive abilities, ideally it would be a walker because...it is a giant machine but that is how I fall on the MC/Walker debate of a lot of the modern releases. But more importantly I think that Tyranid MCs need some major chagnes to make them more viable.

EDIT: Spelling

riptide is better than a NDK in every way except for CC (which doesnt matter) even without marker light support. Interceptor alone makes it a more valuable shooter.

 Ashiraya wrote:
9 missiles, 3+ to hit, 2+ to wound, 2+ armor?

Less than one wound inflicted on average?

I don't remember what T value Broadsides have but even if it is T4 for ID it's still not very impressive.

Jancoran literally ignores math you present to him simply because he plays CAAC games where things that'll happen once will happen once.

No, you're not going to kill a Riptide in a single turn with Melta in an actual, realistic setting where your opponents aren't brain dead.

Yoyoyo wrote:
How did 9 HKM kill a Broadside unit?

The one Dominion more to the middle which helped with the assault fired also.


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 Ashiraya wrote:
9 missiles, 3+ to hit, 2+ to wound, 2+ armor?

Less than one wound inflicted on average?

I don't remember what T value Broadsides have but even if it is T4 for ID it's still not very impressive.

Broadsides are T4. Failed two saves. last one killed by the meltas.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Trying to shoot more is attacking strength rather than attacking weakness.

Kill markerlights, get good cover saves, eliminate Obsec, win on VPs.

If only this was viable...

I play Tau and CSM and my friend also plays Tau. Killing each others Markerlights means nothing when you still have a 1/3 chance of getting a Direct hit on a Nova Charged IA Large Blast. Thats still a squad of Dead Bikers, Terminators and the likes. Markerlights aren't the staple of what make Tau good. They just add bullcrap to the already under costed army that obliterates everything they shoot at. Coupled with the new Boosted BS potential and not for anything, but there just isn't much reason to NOT Bandwagon and play Tau indefinitely.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
9 missiles, 3+ to hit, 2+ to wound, 2+ armor?

Less than one wound inflicted on average?

I don't remember what T value Broadsides have but even if it is T4 for ID it's still not very impressive.

Jancoran literally ignores math you present to him simply because he plays CAAC games where things that'll happen once will happen once.

No, you're not going to kill a Riptide in a single turn with Melta in an actual, realistic setting where your opponents aren't brain dead.

You're wrong, as usual.

My opponent wasn't brain dead. There's nothing you can do when that many dominion scout up, move and disembark, then fire with Ignores Cover. Sorry, "smart guy" but There's just nothing you can do.

I've done it to Wraith Knights, I've done it to Imperial KNights, it is what it is. If I get to go first, someone is going to have a very expensive first round. 11 Melta shots (plus a few bolters) = Dead Riptide. I didn't even get out with all the Dominion to do it. Didn't need to. I just fired from inside with some of them (and then got blown out).

This is the last warning for this thread.

There is no need for the snark, rude comments and so on.

Janc,
Don't Riptides take 13.5 Meltas on average?

Math questikn, of course.

 GoliothOnline wrote:
Killing each others Markerlights means nothing when you still have a 1/3 chance of getting a Direct hit on a Nova Charged IA Large Blast

I'm thinking more of something like Jink+Shrouded Bikes for 2+ cover or T6 Nurgle Spawn with a 4+ in Ruins and 4+++ FNP.

You don't think it could work? You'd be cutting 75-80% of the damage output.

 Jancoran wrote:
Broadsides are T4. Failed two saves. last one killed by the meltas.

I infallibly think they're T5. I ought to remember that for the future, HKMs are great on Taurox Primes.

Bharring wrote:
Janc,
Don't Riptides take 13.5 Meltas on average?

Math questikn, of course.

I know I fired 11 plus Bolters. Since this isn't theory hammering but an actual game I don't know, but I suppose I can grab a pen. Lol.

According to my calculation: 11 Meltas creates 6.1111 wounds before the Invul. The Bolters/grenade adds to that potentially but just the Meltas themselves, thats what you get. After invul save that would be 4.07 unsaved wounds. He had no time to raie his shield so it was only 5+ or I would have risked more dominions.

So given infinite opportunities, it would avarage 4.07 unsaved wounds from that, plus what the Bolters/grenade randomly adds to that (which is very little). EDIT: two Bolters would add .07% and the Grenade .05% so if you add that in you're at another .12, a total of 4.19).

If that were the median average then 50% of your games would see more and 50% would see less. 4+ wounds is a reasonable expectiation (fractions dont exist on a 6 sider)

I personally took my chances there because I wanted to keep some of the Dominions in rhinos to force him to have to blow me out. 11 shots seemed about as much as I should risk in the first go on the Riptide without exposing them given his other two Riptides were a little too far to engage due to deployment.




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Yoyoyo wrote:

 GoliothOnline wrote:
Killing each others Markerlights means nothing when you still have a 1/3 chance of getting a Direct hit on a Nova Charged IA Large Blast

I'm thinking more of something like Jink+Shrouded Bikes for 2+ cover or T6 Nurgle Spawn with a 4+ in Ruins and 4+++ FNP.

You don't think it could work? You'd be cutting 75-80% of the damage output.

 Jancoran wrote:
Broadsides are T4. Failed two saves. last one killed by the meltas.

I infallibly think they're T5. I ought to remember that for the future, HKMs are great on Taurox Primes.

Nope. Broadsides are just T4. So HK's are a good idea for them if you have enough. I have enough. Great for First Blood hunting. Plus like i say: lot of alpha striking fire power in Adepta Sororits.

Bharring wrote:
Janc,
Don't Riptides take 13.5 Meltas on average?

Math questikn, of course.

Assuming BS 4, I think it's
2/3*5/6*2/3 (5++) * 2/3 (FnP) so 40/162, so roughly 4 shots per wound. Dominions, which I believe we are talking about here, have Ignore Cover AoF so a better cover save won't help.
So, being 5 wounds, it would take 20 Meltas assuming the enemy doesn't go for the 3++ save. I'm assuming the 5+ FnP because I personally always take it, and I always see it taken.

Assuming dominions and no wounds on the riptide, it would take roughly 3-4 squads of them firing to kill a riptide (Assuming 4 meltas and a combi, plus immolator tank). I believe it's closer to 3 since the immolator has twinlinked then 4, but I didn't run the numbers so I could be wrong.

Each dominion squad usually costs roughly 200 points with immolator (obviously it can swing either way by 10-15%, but 200 is a nice round value). Figure it costs 600-800 points of melta to kill a riptide.
Which isn't bad. If dominions had longer range weapons, and riptides couldn't dash away, they would probably be a very effective counter.

I could be wrong, I'm going from memory and sisters is one of the few armies I don't own or play often. I know last time I ran the dominions numbers I was told it was incorrect but it was never stated why it was incorrect. Most likely it's some equipment on a HQ I'm unaware of.

Not exactly accurate. you cant multiply hits that never happen.

In any event, it takes 11 to average over 4 wounds and 14 (since there are no fractional dice) to avergae over 5.

Feel No Pain wasn't an issue in this case. If he had FnP, I could have brought more meltas out. I didn't need to in this case.

I misunderstood you, Janc. I thought you were saying that that amount of firepower will typically drop a riptide. These things happen, and you risk what you have to risk in-game.

Having an EV of 4.19 is fairly good. But anything less than an EV of 5 should leave the Riptide alive more than half the time (in games not yet played, of course). However, a Riptide at 1W can be finished off by something else. And, failing that, at least the Riptide is very unlikely to Nova Charge.


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I'm not sure ignoring the decimal place is that useful.

An EV of 4 is much less likely to leave a Riptide with only one wound than an EV of 4.19. Especially when a lot of rolls are involved.

 Jancoran wrote:
Not exactly accurate. you cant multiply hits that never happen.

In any event, it takes 11 to average over 4 wounds and 14 (since there are no fractional dice) to avergae over 5.

Feel No Pain wasn't an issue in this case. If he had FnP, I could have brought more meltas out. I didn't need to in this case.

I'm guessing your numbers are assuming no FnP?
2/3*5/6*2/3= 20/54, so 3 meltas easily cause a wound. 12 meltas would cause over 4 wounds on average. (little less than 4.5 I believe)
Maybe if you round up constantly you get something else? I'm not sure what you mean by "multiply hits that never happen". Maybe if you posted your calculations? I'm using simple math assuming no standard deviation or anything, there certainly isn't a bell curve being produced. I would imagine the deviation is quite high since it's relatively little weapons being used.

If FnP wasn't an issue, that would help quite a bit. I've never not seen it taken, it really helps quite a bit with weapons like plasma and melta that get through the save.


Agree that once a Riptide is at 1-2W it becomes a lot weaker. It's normally scared to Nova charge, although FnP does help with this to an extent.

What he's saying is reworded Gretzky, "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take".

The always inspirational messages we get in the General Discussion forum, right?

Bharring wrote:
I misunderstood you, Janc. I thought you were saying that that amount of firepower will typically drop a riptide. These things happen, and you risk what you have to risk in-game.

Having an EV of 4.19 is fairly good. But anything less than an EV of 5 should leave the Riptide alive more than half the time (in games not yet played, of course). However, a Riptide at 1W can be finished off by something else. And, failing that, at least the Riptide is very unlikely to Nova Charge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm not sure ignoring the decimal place is that useful.

An EV of 4 is much less likely to leave a Riptide with only one wound than an EV of 4.19. Especially when a lot of rolls are involved.

I'm just relating a battle to learn from. I'm telling you what happened. Someone else brought up the math. I probably knew on some level how many I needed to have a solid shot at it and i protected the rest for later.


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Akiasura wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Not exactly accurate. you cant multiply hits that never happen.

In any event, it takes 11 to average over 4 wounds and 14 (since there are no fractional dice) to avergae over 5.

Feel No Pain wasn't an issue in this case. If he had FnP, I could have brought more meltas out. I didn't need to in this case.

I'm guessing your numbers are assuming no FnP?
2/3*5/6*2/3= 20/54, so 3 meltas easily cause a wound. 12 meltas would cause over 4 wounds on average. (little less than 4.5 I believe)
Maybe if you round up constantly you get something else? I'm not sure what you mean by "multiply hits that never happen". Maybe if you posted your calculations? I'm using simple math assuming no standard deviation or anything, there certainly isn't a bell curve being produced. I would imagine the deviation is quite high since it's relatively little weapons being used.

If FnP wasn't an issue, that would help quite a bit. I've never not seen it taken, it really helps quite a bit with weapons like plasma and melta that get through the save.


Agree that once a Riptide is at 1-2W it becomes a lot weaker. It's normally scared to Nova charge, although FnP does help with this to an extent.

(11/6) *4 = 7.33 hits.

becomes 6.111111 wounds.

That becomes 4.07 unsaved wounds.

And he had no FnP. Its expensive and when you're not risking a lot in the Riptide Formation, it makes even more sense not ot take FnP. But sure, he could have and it would have cost him 105 points somewhere else. I don't think, given how the battle went, that he could have afforded that gladly.

And in the end, he lost only one riptide so I mean... Honestly I don't know that it would have been worth it in retrospect either.

Hard to say. You could argue that FnP would have saved the riptide, easily earning it's points back (even with all 3 taking it). You could then argue that being 105 down would result in more units reaching the rip tides resulting in more wounds anyway.

What's the trend with tournaments? I hardly ever see riptide without FnP, but that's locally and on these forums. It'd be nice to have a baseline.

4.07 isn't bad, I suppose I'd like a more sure thing then barely over 4 since I tend to roll low, but on average you can think it'll get the job done.

Yip and once the battle has started, we never know what side of average we will be on, on any given roll, so thats why we play the game. And the Bolters and Grenades do push it to 4.19 o I mean... It's there forr the taking if you were to math hammer it out. The risk reward equation is one that is very hard to quantify anyways and i opted for less risk and hoped (intuitively) that 4.19 would get the job done while having made prudent provision for if it did not (in other words, cowering with some of them firing from the Rhino).

 Xenomancers wrote:
riptide is better than a NDK in every way except for CC (which doesnt matter) even without marker light support. Interceptor alone makes it a more valuable shooter.

Again, I have used both for years and I beg to differ. My Dreadknights have always done much more damage than my riptides ever have. Yes they die more often but after they have done way more points of damage than the riptides due for the course of the game.

Martel,

1.) If I remember correctly, you play mono-Blood Angels. That is an active choice that has associated opportunity costs with it. It is widely acknowledged as a weak codex. By choosing to do so, you are choosing to play a less competitive army. Should it be that way? Absolutely No! But that is how it is and it should be a consideration in your army selection process. Personally, I don't play WHite Scars CT because I don't like that style of play. So I know I won't be as competitive.

2.) Practically the only good unit in the BS codex are Drop Pods. So I'm assuming that is an integral part of your strategy. You couldn't design a better hard counter to drop pods then the an Iontide with EWO. Do you really expect the scissors to perform well against the rock? I get it though. When all you have is a pair of scissors, you are going to learn to hate that rock with a passion.

3.) The Riptide is a great unit. Very few people could genuinely argue that it isn't. Personally, I wish they would switch the ranges between the IA and the HBC. But that is because I like the HBC and because it would make it a more attractive choice. It might make the HBC more competitive too if they made the S8AP2 large blast available only with the Nova Charge. But in all fairness, I doubt that is going to happen.

4.) 40k is terribly balanced. Your best hope is for either a different game or pray they give the Blood Angles a worthy detachment formation and/or a new codex. Obviously, a new codex seems unlikely. But who knows?

Well, a new BA codex is bound to happen-the question is WHEN.
And it might not be soon.

Median Trace wrote:

3.) The Riptide is a great unit. Very few people could genuinely argue that it isn't. Personally, I wish they would switch the ranges between the IA and the HBC. But that is because I like the HBC and because it would make it a more attractive choice. It might make the HBC more competitive too if they made the S8AP2 large blast available only with the Nova Charge. But in all fairness, I doubt that is going to happen.

nova is s9ap2 ordinance large blast, overcharge is s8ap2 large blast gets hot, and regular is s7ap2 heavy 3

Why do you like the HBC? 8 s6 ap5 shots, or 12 gets hot s6 ap5 shots rending (with nova charge roll on top to self wound), you'll get hot as often as you'll rend. and s6 isn't a terribly useful strength when you have ready access to s7

 pumaman1 wrote:

Median Trace wrote:

3.) The Riptide is a great unit. Very few people could genuinely argue that it isn't. Personally, I wish they would switch the ranges between the IA and the HBC. But that is because I like the HBC and because it would make it a more attractive choice. It might make the HBC more competitive too if they made the S8AP2 large blast available only with the Nova Charge. But in all fairness, I doubt that is going to happen.

nova is s9ap2 ordinance large blast, overcharge is s8ap2 large blast gets hot, and regular is s7ap2 heavy 3

Why do you like the HBC? 8 s6 ap5 shots, or 12 gets hot s6 ap5 shots rending (with nova charge roll on top to self wound), you'll get hot as often as you'll rend. and s6 isn't a terribly useful strength when you have ready access to s7

What I was saying is that the large blast S8AP2 blast should only be available if you Nova Charge or just remove it and leave the S9 one the same. I rarely Nova Charge for the S9 blast which allows me to use it solely for the 3++ or the 4d6 Jetpack move. The Burstide basically has to use it's Nova Charge for the gun profile to make it viable. That is bad design in my opinion when one option is vastly better than the other. Personally, I just like the look of the HBC better. Silly reason, I know. But there is really no comparing the two right now.

Ok fair enough, appearance wise it is more aesthetically pleasing. the IA is kind of a brick of doom.

 Jancoran wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
9 missiles, 3+ to hit, 2+ to wound, 2+ armor?

Less than one wound inflicted on average?

I don't remember what T value Broadsides have but even if it is T4 for ID it's still not very impressive.

Jancoran literally ignores math you present to him simply because he plays CAAC games where things that'll happen once will happen once.

No, you're not going to kill a Riptide in a single turn with Melta in an actual, realistic setting where your opponents aren't brain dead.

You're wrong, as usual.

My opponent wasn't brain dead. There's nothing you can do when that many dominion scout up, move and disembark, then fire with Ignores Cover. Sorry, "smart guy" but There's just nothing you can do.

I've done it to Wraith Knights, I've done it to Imperial KNights, it is what it is. If I get to go first, someone is going to have a very expensive first round. 11 Melta shots (plus a few bolters) = Dead Riptide. I didn't even get out with all the Dominion to do it. Didn't need to. I just fired from inside with some of them (and then got blown out).

Incorrect.
Even with just the 5++ you're looking at 4.07 wounds done, which doesn't kill a Riptide. You aren't allowed to ignore decimals just because you don't like them. With FNP you're looking at 3.06 instead. Why the FNP wasn't purchased I'll never know, as that 35 points basically gives you 2 more wounds for all intents and purposes.

NOW we can look at Bolters. You need an average of 54 Bolters to actually cause a single wound, and that's without FNP again. So you had something happen that was out of the ordinary and you propose it as a way to counter Riptides. To do all of this your opponent does has to be braindead at deployment because a simple counterdeployment is easy against anything carrying something like Meltas, especially you're having to use Rhinos.