Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey Guys,

I got into 40k way back when I was about 12. I played through 3rd, 4th, and 5th edition. But unfortunately, I stopped playing when my local GW, and every GW in the area, closed down and the community was scattered to the wind. I can't quite pinpoint at what exact time I left the game, but as I remember it, the blood angels had just come out, deep striking their land raiders and such, and everyone was pooping their pants over it. I came across my old models and wondered if it would be worth it to get back in to, as I hear things are vastly different from what they used to be. Please let me know if what i have heard is true:

1. There are no more force orgs anymore. You are no longer required to have 1 HQ and 2 Troops as the bedrock of your army. If you want 8 land raiders as your army and that's it, then you can have 8 land raiders and no one can tell you anything. Literally anything goes and it's in the rules.

2. There are no more rules on who you can pair your army with. This means nids can be in the same army as tau, chaos can be in the same army as daemon hunters, and other blasphemous combinations. Or you can have 4 different armies in the same list and it totally flies according to the rules.

3. Things have gotten EVEN MORE expensive. New models that had just been released used to cost $60, and we used to think that was pushing the limit. Now I see some CSM model on a horse and it costs $150 holy S*** balls. Is the rest of the game really that expensive? Is GW still doing the "Introduce new models that are OP so you gotta have em, and we'll price em through the roof" nonsense they used to do, but now to the umpteen degree?

4. GW stores are still on the decline? I keep seeing them disappear, and it looks like there's only 1 left in the entire SF bay area. Am I missing something, or is the business continuing to fall off the radar?

Thanks for all your insight guys, it's been such a long time since i've played, and I have some great memories, but I don't know if it would be worth it at this point, especially if all of the above are true.

All of that is pretty much true, yes.

As far as if it's worth it to get back into the game, it's entirely up to you. The power level has skyrocketed, games can have random objectives every turn, and you have Apoc level creatures running around everywhere. It's not quite the skirmish level game it used to be.

1. Very few people do unbound in pickup games, because your opponent can always refuse to play. It's mostly for groups of friends who are already ok with playing whatever, from what I've seen. If you go to the more competitive side of the hobby, you'll probably forget unbound is even a thing.

2. There is still an allies chart, and come the apocalypse allies are frequently banned. See 1.

3. This is all up to you. If a hobby is too expensive for you, don't do it. 40k is far from the most expensive hobby there is.

4. GW stores, yes. FLGSs, still going strong. Don't think that you need to go to a GW store in order to have a strong community. On the west coast, the ITC has done more to build a structured community than anything GW has done in years

By the sounds of it, if you have ITC events near you, then yes it's worth it. If not, probably best to hold off.

While there are a lot of different ways to put your army together, there is still some structure. Formations let you take certain combos of units and get bonuses. You lack the flexibility of the old system (which you can still use) in exchange for some extra power. Technically there is unbound, where you can take whatever you want, but I rarely see it used.

One thing to consider with the cost is that there has been some scale creep in the game. Things that used to just reside in massive apocalypse games are now seen in “normal” sized battles. So the $150 minis will dwarf older, smaller, things. The price has gone up for everything though, higher then inflation. It’s an expensive hobby, no arguments.

The discussion can go two very, very different ways depending on how competitive you are, and how competitive the local meta is.

My advice would be, if you do not have a regular and cohesive gaming group or strong local store presence, dont get into the game at this point. Pickup games are increasingly rare and difficult to negotiate, and pickup gaming has practically disappeared in many places. If cost is an issue, that goes double.

Basically, if you have a ton of stuff already or dont care about money, and have a good group of like minded players that are willing to work together to shape your play experience and fix the rules to work for you on hand, go for it. Otherwise, I wouldnt recommend getting back in the game, as the rules have gone completely to pot and the cost has skyrocketed and caused pickup gaming to shrink dramatically.

Grave news guys, i'm sad to see the hobby move to where it is today. Would you say on average most people are not looking to play 1500-2500 point games anymore? Does everyone want to run 5k+ points with super heavies and titans and all this OP apoc stuff on the field? I could almost wrap my head around playing if it weren't for super heavies/titans being the norm

Locally 1800 is probably the standard. I think 1500-2500 is still the standard for most, but I can't back that up

Most people sti stick to 1.5-2k games, but now youre likely to see an entire army of minititans or a dozen D weapons in common lists, Eldar armies where everything is BS5 or TLd BS4 and S6+ shooting, necron armies where basic 13pt Warriors sport resiliency on par with Terminators and Wraith units that require more s10 firepower to kill than a Warhound titan, or armies made of theee different SM chapters with Tau allies, armies with 5 detachments from 4 different books, or that get 500pts of extra points to play with just because, and other such sillyness.

Depends on your meta. The one I'm in now prefers 1500-2000 point games. My old gaming group enjoys competitive 1500 (SHV and stuff) or massive games (5k+)

Breiss wrote:
Grave news guys, i'm sad to see the hobby move to where it is today. Would you say on average most people are not looking to play 1500-2500 point games anymore? Does everyone want to run 5k+ points with super heavies and titans and all this OP apoc stuff on the field? I could almost wrap my head around playing if it weren't for super heavies/titans being the norm

Depends. 1500-2500 is still definitely played, tournaments you are likely to see super heavies and titans, but in friendly games, usually you won't see it unless you ask for it.

Breiss wrote:
Grave news guys, i'm sad to see the hobby move to where it is today. Would you say on average most people are not looking to play 1500-2500 point games anymore? Does everyone want to run 5k+ points with super heavies and titans and all this OP apoc stuff on the field? I could almost wrap my head around playing if it weren't for super heavies/titans being the norm

Thing is, there is no 'on average' any more. Gw opened increased the scale, and the power level of the game to such an extent (and by extension, the exploitabilitt of the game) that it essentially fractured the community. Essentially, it's so big and potentially prone to abuse that you need to band aid it with social contract, handle with see, organise ahead of time in terms of what you are looking for, and approach games in a fairly co-operative manner to get anything out of it.

A lot of people left over the last few years. As has always happened. Plenty stayed however, but while a lot of people say they still play 'forty-k', there is no one 'true' 40k anymore. With the way the player base has fractured or has adapted to deal with the state of the gsme, you can essentially have the situation where every group is approaching it in a different manner. Some people de-escalate and ban super heavies and flyers, and Lord of war, others might stick to previous editions of the game, plenty home brew to a lesser or greater extent. Some play bigger games, some play smaller.

Essentially it depends entirely on your local meta.

Best bet for you would be to do your research. Check out the gaming shops and scenes in your local area. Check Facebook, and local forums. SAy what type of game you are after, ask what kind of game they play, and ask about the kinds of games the other people they know play (not everyone is online). Meet in person and ask around. It's worth doing, even if it is just to put your mind at ease about not jumping back in.

Good luck.

Deadnight wrote:

Breiss wrote:
Grave news guys, i'm sad to see the hobby move to where it is today. Would you say on average most people are not looking to play 1500-2500 point games anymore? Does everyone want to run 5k+ points with super heavies and titans and all this OP apoc stuff on the field? I could almost wrap my head around playing if it weren't for super heavies/titans being the norm

Thing is, there is no 'on average' any more. Gw opened increased the scale, and the power level of the game to such an extent (and by extension, the exploitabilitt of the game) that it essentially fractured the community. Essentially, it's so big and potentially prone to abuse that you need to band aid it with social contract, handle with see, organise ahead of time in terms of what you are looking for, and approach games in a fairly co-operative manner to get anything out of it.

A lot of people left over the last few years. As has always happened. Plenty stayed however, but while a lot of people say they still play 'forty-k', there is no one 'true' 40k anymore. With the way the player base has fractured or has adapted to deal with the state of the gsme, you can essentially have the situation where every group is approaching it in a different manner. Some people de-escalate and ban super heavies and flyers, and Lord of war, others might stick to previous editions of the game, plenty home brew to a lesser or greater extent. Some play bigger games, some play smaller.

Essentially it depends entirely on your local meta.

Best bet for you would be to do your research. Check out the gaming shops and scenes in your local area. Check Facebook, and local forums. SAy what type of game you are after, ask what kind of game they play, and ask about the kinds of games the other people they know play (not everyone is online). Meet in person and ask around. It's worth doing, even if it is just to put your mind at ease about not jumping back in.

Good luck.

This. All the changes in the world mean nothing if your FLGS doesn't play 40k.

Depends entirely on your play group. I'm incredibly fortunate in that the store I'm near is A) thriving with 20-30 regular members and B) that sweet spot of slightly competitive so you enjoy making your lists and casual enough that nobody's running crazy tau-Nid unbound crap.

If that's your local scene you'll love it and 7th will be super fun. Otherwise it may not be your bag.

1. There are no more force orgs anymore. You are no longer required to have 1 HQ and 2 Troops as the bedrock of your army. If you want 8 land raiders as your army and that's it, then you can have 8 land raiders and no one can tell you anything. Literally anything goes and it's in the rules.

Nobody will do this and this is why. If you are playing casual you are already playing with nice armies. If you are playing Cut throat competitive this isn't the best way to field it. Restricting yourself to formations is just way more powerful since they provide huge bonuses.
Unbound is there to allow players to play fun lists that don't fit normal restrictions.

2. There are no more rules on who you can pair your army with. This means nids can be in the same army as tau, chaos can be in the same army as daemon hunters, and other blasphemous combinations. Or you can have 4 different armies in the same list and it totally flies according to the rules.

There are rules for it. sure you could field hereticl inquisitors with daemons but they would suffer quite a lot from each others abilities since they are allied "enemies" resulting in lots of nasty stuff.

3. Things have gotten EVEN MORE expensive.

Jup sadly but true, good thing there is a second hand market.

4. GW stores are still on the decline?

Not really, GW just changed their store policy. I can't speak for your area but around here they tend to open "disposable" GW stores. With employees instead of owners and only one of them. If it doesn't work they just shut it down and open a new one.
They have actually never had as much GW stores as in the past as today in the Netherlands.

GW is slowly losing their position on the market to other gaming systems, but is still the largest player around here. ( X-wing might be close )

Breiss wrote:
Hey Guys,

I got into 40k way back when I was about 12. I played through 3rd, 4th, and 5th edition. But unfortunately, I stopped playing when my local GW, and every GW in the area, closed down and the community was scattered to the wind. I can't quite pinpoint at what exact time I left the game, but as I remember it, the blood angels had just come out, deep striking their land raiders and such, and everyone was pooping their pants over it. I came across my old models and wondered if it would be worth it to get back in to, as I hear things are vastly different from what they used to be. Please let me know if what i have heard is true:

1. There are no more force orgs anymore. You are no longer required to have 1 HQ and 2 Troops as the bedrock of your army. If you want 8 land raiders as your army and that's it, then you can have 8 land raiders and no one can tell you anything. Literally anything goes and it's in the rules.

2. There are no more rules on who you can pair your army with. This means nids can be in the same army as tau, chaos can be in the same army as daemon hunters, and other blasphemous combinations. Or you can have 4 different armies in the same list and it totally flies according to the rules.

3. Things have gotten EVEN MORE expensive. New models that had just been released used to cost $60, and we used to think that was pushing the limit. Now I see some CSM model on a horse and it costs $150 holy S*** balls. Is the rest of the game really that expensive? Is GW still doing the "Introduce new models that are OP so you gotta have em, and we'll price em through the roof" nonsense they used to do, but now to the umpteen degree?

4. GW stores are still on the decline? I keep seeing them disappear, and it looks like there's only 1 left in the entire SF bay area. Am I missing something, or is the business continuing to fall off the radar?

Thanks for all your insight guys, it's been such a long time since i've played, and I have some great memories, but I don't know if it would be worth it at this point, especially if all of the above are true.

1. There are still force orgs, you just have more options than before in how you want to build your army. You can have different forces but it is all part of increasing your options as a player. Why cant my IG have a small detachment of sisters working with them? So on and so forth. While it has negative impacts for the purely competitive scene I find it is great for everyone else that wants to create a theme, or "forge a narrative" as it is often demonized.

2. You can have those blasphemous combinations that is true, but that is a side effect of giving players more choices. Most of the time it is not a problem as most people dont use it that way. Also it is not without costs as there are in game rules to punish such things.

3. Expensive is a matter of perspective. I am getting a much better value for MOST of the kits that I buy now compared to what I was getting before. For example if you are JUST looking at a model to model comparison, then yes it is much more expensive. However if you look at what you can DO with those models then it is not. Compare the price of 5 metal veteran with one fixed pose to 5 sternguard with LITERALLY over 100 bits to mix and match and choose from. I can use that sternguard kit to make 10 sternguard when combined with half a tac box. So before I would have to have about 5-10 "side" models to have all the equipment options available to the squad. Now I can easily magnetize them. Also means that I spend less time painting redundencies and can put more time into painting the fewer models, once again a much increased value. Compared to before while the number of models per dollar is better, the actual VALUE is less. This is 100% before we get into the aesthetic quality of the miniatures themselves.

4. GW stores are on the decline but usually there are independent stores that are avaiable. So if you are actually looking to get in reliable games then GW tends to be the best as they reliably will have a player base reasonably close wherever you go.

 krodarklorr wrote:
All of that is pretty much true, yes.

As far as if it's worth it to get back into the game, it's entirely up to you. The power level has skyrocketed, games can have random objectives every turn, and you have Apoc level creatures running around everywhere. It's not quite the skirmish level game it used to be.

mmm the game has lost so much soul as a result, its why its fun to play small games where those sorts of things arent welcome sometimes. such a change of pace from spamming jetbikes and wraithknights and stormsurges, and guys with baneblades casually lying around

If you have a good group to play with than yes, we have a solid 20-30 players around here so finding a game is never hard at any power level.

There is stuff for everyone in the game, it's still a blast if you like to throw dice and the models are some of the best in the hobby.

What route you take will of course decide which army you want to play again but the game is still very much enjoyable and tons of people still play.

Check out your FLGS and see what kind of events/days/people play. As with most social things, who you play with will more than likely decide your enjoyment level.

Thanks soo much for your responses guys, I think I'll check out the LGS's around me, and there are quite a bit, to see if the scene is good in the bay. TBH, most stores are so jam packed with magic the gathering players, but I'll keep my fingers crossed!

The scene is good in the Bay! Game Kastle's solid and there are a number of other stores around. I hear good things about Endgame. 1850pts seems to be the default point level.

There's a bit of a black hole with stores in the San Mateo area, nowhere to play as Gator Games doesn't set any room aside for people to come in and play 40k.

 DarkLink wrote:
1. Very few people do unbound in pickup games, because your opponent can always refuse to play. It's mostly for groups of friends who are already ok with playing whatever, from what I've seen. If you go to the more competitive side of the hobby, you'll probably forget unbound is even a thing.

2. There is still an allies chart, and come the apocalypse allies are frequently banned. See 1.

3. This is all up to you. If a hobby is too expensive for you, don't do it. 40k is far from the most expensive hobby there is.

4. GW stores, yes. FLGSs, still going strong. Don't think that you need to go to a GW store in order to have a strong community. On the west coast, the ITC has done more to build a structured community than anything GW has done in years

Addendum to 3 - Some models are OTT expensive. Most, when adjusted for CPI, are basically the same cost as they've always been,

optrgrow wrote:

Check out your FLGS and see what kind of events/days/people play. As with most social things, who you play with will more than likely decide your enjoyment level.

This is the only answer. Find a good group of people and play what they play. I'd rather play a terrible game with great people than a great game with a bunch of gits.

1. Yes, and nearly everyone hates that. I haven't participated in a single league or tournament where that was an acceptable way to build an army. I haven't met a play group that allows it either. I would recommend just telling people you don't want to play unbound.

2. Correct, there's just certain consequences for allying 2 armies that don't really work together. Luckily they fixed the whole Eldar summoning daemons thing, that was stupid.

3. Yes they have and that new $60 kit for 5 guys is awful. Even if the models were cool that would be a little steep.

4. It's not just the stores on a decline, the company as a whole has been in a downward spiral for 5 years now. The complaints you mentioned have only accelerated the pace of that down turn. They closed more stores than they opened last year. Apparently when you have a closet staffed by 1 guy, only open 35 hours week and located in some back alley strip mall on the other side of town, people don't find it a fun place to go.

1. Sort of, force org exists, but you are not required to use it. All depends on the people. Where I live, once a year you might play someone who runs unbound, which is no force org. So you might face a full army of land raiders, but again, all depends on the people.

2. Yes, but there are rules that will make this very difficult to field. You cannot deploy within X range, and if you get within X range, your units may not be able to do anything for that turn. I still haven't faced anyone using come the apocalypse allies in the 3 years since I have been back (even the worst opponents I have faced dont do it, because its never really that powerful lol)

3. huh, haha, yea. gak yeah. Luckily, china has stepped in, recasts have stepped in too. A lot of people are buying models from china, and a lot of store are offering discounts. My LGS sells models 25% off.

4.See point 3, why go to a GW store, where I can't play because there is a single table, and everything is full price, when I can go to a friendly shop, where everything is discounted, and there are 12 tables?

I left the game 6 years ago because where I lived was a 40k black hole. The people were terribad, the nearest decent shop was an hour away. It just wasn't working out, why have a hobby if you can't enjoy it?
I moved 3 years ago, checked out some shops, watched a local tournament, talked to some people and decided to give it another shot, have loved it since. sure, there are 3 or 4 sour apples in the group, but what can you do? Any who, head around the local shops and see what it is like!

Breiss wrote:
Hey Guys,

I got into 40k way back when I was about 12. I played through 3rd, 4th, and 5th edition. But unfortunately, I stopped playing when my local GW, and every GW in the area, closed down and the community was scattered to the wind. I can't quite pinpoint at what exact time I left the game, but as I remember it, the blood angels had just come out, deep striking their land raiders and such, and everyone was pooping their pants over it. I came across my old models and wondered if it would be worth it to get back in to, as I hear things are vastly different from what they used to be. Please let me know if what i have heard is true:

1. There are no more force orgs anymore. You are no longer required to have 1 HQ and 2 Troops as the bedrock of your army. If you want 8 land raiders as your army and that's it, then you can have 8 land raiders and no one can tell you anything. Literally anything goes and it's in the rules.

2. There are no more rules on who you can pair your army with. This means nids can be in the same army as tau, chaos can be in the same army as daemon hunters, and other blasphemous combinations. Or you can have 4 different armies in the same list and it totally flies according to the rules.

3. Things have gotten EVEN MORE expensive. New models that had just been released used to cost $60, and we used to think that was pushing the limit. Now I see some CSM model on a horse and it costs $150 holy S*** balls. Is the rest of the game really that expensive? Is GW still doing the "Introduce new models that are OP so you gotta have em, and we'll price em through the roof" nonsense they used to do, but now to the umpteen degree?

4. GW stores are still on the decline? I keep seeing them disappear, and it looks like there's only 1 left in the entire SF bay area. Am I missing something, or is the business continuing to fall off the radar?

Thanks for all your insight guys, it's been such a long time since i've played, and I have some great memories, but I don't know if it would be worth it at this point, especially if all of the above are true.

Its worth it if you love the models and the universe. I mean thats really what got me into it and keeps me there. i care a lot less than some people about what rules we have and more about how cool it all is (to me)..

1. Detachments contain their own Force organization charts. Some are more typical looking, others are like straight jackets. either way the armies are now built using "Detachments", each of which has its own Force org or set of units it allows strictly as the case may be.. You can combine 2 or three detachments into an ARMY. Or just have one like before. Your choice.

2. "Unbound" armies are rare and not allowed at most tournaments and so represent a real small subset of armies you will ever really face. but sure. The game does allow you to play that way. It comes with some disadvantages also but I mean if you waaaaant to and its not a tournament? I guess? No one does it really. Well... almost no one.

3. Hobbies are all expensive. Old cars, scrap booking, Magic the Gathering... whatevs. I'd collect a unit every couple weeks or whatever, paint it and do it again if cost is a major concern but since you have models its probably a matter of ripping off the bandaid once to get some new toys. Online retailers can provide a LOT of low cost conversion stuff to update what you already have. Kromlech, for example has really nice weapon upgrades and so on.

4. GW stores open and close as they prove or disprove demand. Like all retailers. But hobby shops that are NOT GW are much more common and Id spend my time looking for THEM.

Also: EBay. Seriously. It's just so much easier and less costly. i mean do you REALLY care enoug about modeling to pay full price for EVERYTHING? Lol. Take some Simple Green, dunk the models you buy in it for a couple days, scrub em off and go to town if the paint is crappy.

 krodarklorr wrote:
All of that is pretty much true, yes.

As far as if it's worth it to get back into the game, it's entirely up to you. The power level has skyrocketed, games can have random objectives every turn, and you have Apoc level creatures running around everywhere. It's not quite the skirmish level game it used to be.

Don't listen to this guy. Retail Stores are on the decline ONLY in the US. In Europe they have more stores than ever. In the US most people buy from online defeating the point of unprofitable retail stores.

40k is better than EVER before - I played in 5th, got back in beginning of 7th and I truly think this is right NOW the golden age of the hobby. The release schedule and new models are better than ever before. Codexes are updated much more regularly and boardgames like Beytral at Clath are great. Specialists Games are coming back. For Warhammer Fantasy and LotR it is over for them but 40k is better than ever and GW's sole money-maker.

40k is now in so many PC games and GW is finally getting them into big box mass retailers in the UK like Legos. The rules are better than EVER before too. 7th is the most strategic and balanced ruleset. The only guys crying are the assaulty only armies like Chaos Space Marines who want the bad old days when Assault was OP.

Breiss wrote:
Grave news guys, i'm sad to see the hobby move to where it is today. Would you say on average most people are not looking to play 1500-2500 point games anymore? Does everyone want to run 5k+ points with super heavies and titans and all this OP apoc stuff on the field? I could almost wrap my head around playing if it weren't for super heavies/titans being the norm

Super Heavies, Titans and all that "apoc stuff" can now be put on the table in games under 2k points. Along with Fliers, Knights, Gargantuan Creatures, fortifications, D-weapons...

Basically, if you are looking to get back into the game, and don't yet have a local game group with its meta already hammered out and whatever house-rules they run with settled... no, probably not a good time to get back into the game. Especially if you plan on running a previously-owned army from, like, 3rd or 4th ed or something.

The rules are better than EVER before too. 7th is the most strategic and balanced ruleset. The only guys crying are the assaulty only armies like Chaos Space Marines who want the bad old days when Assault was OP.

I want whatever drugs you are taking.

 Psienesis wrote:

The rules are better than EVER before too. 7th is the most strategic and balanced ruleset. The only guys crying are the assaulty only armies like Chaos Space Marines who want the bad old days when Assault was OP.

I want whatever drugs you are taking.

Same. Strategic and balanced are two words I don't think I've ever seen used to describe 7th.

Would suggest a lot is down to how you want to play and who you have to play against - if you want to play the way they do its not a bad little game, certainly an interesting way to spend an afternoon with friends. The models are nice as well.

If you're looking for a well balanced tight set of rules you can push without them breaking look elsewhere, but for a slightly daft way to spend an afternoon its perfectly workable, just whatever you do leave common sense at home and just run with it.