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Proposed rules:

Any roll of 6 "to hit" is an automatic hit, regardless of any other rules in play.

Any roll of 6 "to wound" shall cause a wound or the loss of a hull point, regardless of the strength of the weapon, armor value of the vehicle, toughness of the creature or any other rules in play.

Only saves 4+ and inferior can be re-rolled.

That isn't really an "anti power creep rule" when it hoses Wraithlords, which have been T8 for a long time.

Bharring wrote:
That isn't really an "anti power creep rule" when it hoses Wraithlords, which have been T8 for a long time.

I'm sure that Eldar plays could "git gud" and adapt. After all, they are such excellent generals and all, and that's why they are so good at winning, right? I'm sure that they could work around it.

And Land Raider users?

Nobody fields Wraithlords because they are so powerful.

Yeah... When lasguns demolish Land Raiders, that's no good, eh?

jade_angel wrote:
Yeah... When lasguns demolish Land Raiders, that's no good, eh?

I'm cool with that.

It makes the lowest common denominator far too powerful.

IG and Kalabites spammed *really really hard* just leafblower everything.

Are you certain? This would mean such things as squads of Gaunts with devourers almost certainly wrecking Land Raiders in a single shooting phase. You've effectively given every single weapon in the game "Gauss".

My point is, this mostly serves to make the OP factions even stronger, while not doing a whole lot to benefit the underdogs. Eldar don't have to get good - Swooping Hawks kill anything without a good save now. (To say nothing of bloody scatpacks. At least right now those can't touch T10 or AV13+)

jade_angel wrote:
Are you certain? This would mean such things as squads of Gaunts with devourers almost certainly wrecking Land Raiders in a single shooting phase. You've effectively given every single weapon in the game "Gauss".

My point is, this mostly serves to make the OP factions even stronger, while not doing a whole lot to benefit the underdogs. Eldar don't have to get good - Swooping Hawks kill anything without a good save now. (To say nothing of bloody scatpacks. At least right now those can't touch T10 or AV13+)

I agree, it would make units that are already bad even worse, thought I guess ill see some value in bringing a Green tide with all shootas hmmm


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jade_angel wrote:
Are you certain? This would mean such things as squads of Gaunts with devourers almost certainly wrecking Land Raiders in a single shooting phase. You've effectively given every single weapon in the game "Gauss".

My point is, this mostly serves to make the OP factions even stronger, while not doing a whole lot to benefit the underdogs. Eldar don't have to get good - Swooping Hawks kill anything without a good save now. (To say nothing of bloody scatpacks. At least right now those can't touch T10 or AV13+)

I agree, it would make units that are already bad even worse, thought I guess ill see some value in bringing a Green tide with all shootas hmmm

Yeah, this doesn't really solve any more problems than it creates. It would give everyone a chance (though not a great one) at hurting high toughness units like GMCs or quantum shielded necron vehicles, but it would also make various forms of high-quantity-of-shots units perhaps a bit too good.

I'm not sure it would go very far towards taking down a riptide with its 2+ armor or a wraith knight with its cover/invul save and FNP. It would definitely make wraith lords and land raiders even less appealing options than they are right now. It would also encourage infantry spam, most likely in blobby pseudo-death-star form. I don't consider any of these things to be much of an improvement.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Yeah, this doesn't really solve any more problems than it creates. It would give everyone a chance (though not a great one) at hurting high toughness units like GMCs or quantum shielded necron vehicles, but it would also make various forms of high-quantity-of-shots units perhaps a bit too good.

I'm not sure it would go very far towards taking down a riptide with its 2+ armor or a wraith knight with its cover/invul save and FNP. It would definitely make wraith lords and land raiders even less appealing options than they are right now. It would also encourage infantry spam, most likely in blobby pseudo-death-star form. I don't consider any of these things to be much of an improvement.

These problems could be solved simply by lowering the points cost of wraith lords, land raiders and other like units.


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jade_angel wrote:
Are you certain? This would mean such things as squads of Gaunts with devourers almost certainly wrecking Land Raiders in a single shooting phase. You've effectively given every single weapon in the game "Gauss".

Yup.

My point is, this mostly serves to make the OP factions even stronger, while not doing a whole lot to benefit the underdogs. Eldar don't have to get good - Swooping Hawks kill anything without a good save now. (To say nothing of bloody scatpacks. At least right now those can't touch T10 or AV13+)

I disagree. It would be a massive boon for orks, space marines, imperial guard, etc. And it would take Eldar down a notch or three.

And seriously. Feth eldar. Feth them and feth the jetbikes they rode in on.

i think it should just be, dont be a douche to one another but i assume that sort of stuff is lost on the community who do things like leagues and tournaments and netlist like lemmings and then complain about imbalance when gw is doing everything to so "dont play compeititvely anymore". competitive play for 40k is cancerous death to the LVO and NOVA

One of the benefits many races have over CWE is that their normal troops (read: not scatter bikes) can glance AV10, but can do nothing to AV11+.

This change makes Guardians and DAs OP.

Traditio wrote:

My point is, this mostly serves to make the OP factions even stronger, while not doing a whole lot to benefit the underdogs. Eldar don't have to get good - Swooping Hawks kill anything without a good save now. (To say nothing of bloody scatpacks. At least right now those can't touch T10 or AV13+)

I disagree. It would be a massive boon for orks, space marines, imperial guard, etc. And it would take Eldar down a notch or three.

And seriously. Feth eldar. Feth them and feth the jetbikes they rode in on.

No, it would not knock Eldar down a few pegs. Now the few things Scatbikes couldn't kill before, they can. Guardians can annihilate anything they shoot - as opposed to just "everything with a T value".

Yes, it would be a big buff to Orks and Guard. And everybody else except Necrons. But against Eldar, all you'd get is the ability to damage Wraithknights and Wave Serpents with bolters. Please don't tell me you couldn't kill AV12 vehicles?

Wraithknights are trouble, that much I'll agree on.

On a scale of 1 to Scatbikes, this proposed rule is bad.

I love seeing Guardsman shoot down fething warlord titans. Or seeing Gaunts kill a Gargantuan Squiggoth. That seems like a reasonable fix because someone can't stand Scatbikes.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
On a scale of 1 to Scatbikes, this proposed rule is bad.

I love seeing Guardsman shoot down fething warlord titans. Or seeing Gaunts kill a Gargantuan Squiggoth. That seems like a reasonable fix because someone can't stand Scatbikes.

And I'm sure IG players love seeing fething warlord titans that their gaurdsmen can't touch, and I'm sure that people who play gaunts love seeing gargantuan squiggoths that their gaunts cant hit at all.

Seriously.

The kind of player who would object to this rule is precisely the player that the rule has in mind to take down a peg or three.

What, you can't win with your squiggoth or your warlord titan if the average base troop can hit it? Then "git gud, scrub."


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Bharring wrote:
One of the benefits many races have over CWE is that their normal troops (read: not scatter bikes) can glance AV10, but can do nothing to AV11+.

This change makes Guardians and DAs OP.

Simple:

Adopt the rule, and significantly ratchet up their points cost. As well as scat bikes. Ratchet up their points costs. A lot.

For the units that would be considered grossly underpowered given the new rule, lower their points costs.

Except the wraithknight. Adopt the rule, and sitll ratchet up its points cost. 1000 points per wraithknight.

Because, again: feth eldar.

Not entirely sure whether Traditio is just trolling/griping or genuinely believes this is a good change to rules on some level.

Odd though it may sound, I'm not particularly fond of "fixing" power imbalances by simply cranking the points up or down. There's probably a mechanical argument to be made for it, making wraith lords extremely cheap despite the fact that they're meant to be pretty rare doesn't sit well with me. Similarly, I dislike whenever tac marines get cheaper even if they aren't worth their points because slowly pushing them towards horde army status rather than making them badasses just feels unfluffy to me.

I get the impression we're all pretty much on the same page here (except Traditio), right? We agree this suggestion doesn't really improve anything?

On a related note, what would everyone think of doing that thing they did in the LoTR skirmish game (and possibly AoSigmar and Fantasy?; not familiar with those) where anyone can hurt anyone else, but you have to roll a 6 on your first to-wound roll and then roll to wound again. I may be misremembering the mechanic, but it worked sort of like the inverse of a BS6+ shooting attack. So a guardsman won't hurt a titan, but if he rolls a 6 to pen and then another 6 to pen and then rolls a 4+ to pen? Maybe that grants him a glancing hit. What do you guys think?

Traditio wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
On a scale of 1 to Scatbikes, this proposed rule is bad.

I love seeing Guardsman shoot down fething warlord titans. Or seeing Gaunts kill a Gargantuan Squiggoth. That seems like a reasonable fix because someone can't stand Scatbikes.

And I'm sure IG players love seeing fething warlord titans that their gaurdsmen can't touch, and I'm sure that people who play gaunts love seeing gargantuan squiggoths that their gaunts cant hit at all.

Seriously.

The kind of player who would object to this rule is precisely the player that the rule has in mind to take down a peg or three.

What, you can't win with your squiggoth or your warlord titan if the average base troop can hit it? Then "git gud, scrub."

Or you know... Any guy that plays a "Quality over Quantity" army.

If I have a Warlord Titan, a model that goes for 3000 points, it would be stupid to see it die to guardsmen fire (Mathhammer wise, it only takes 100 guardsmen in rapid fire range with FRFSRF to kill it). It doesn't even make sense logically nor fluff wise. It would be akin to suggesting my Airsoft gun can kill an Abrams tank if I fire enough times.

Tactical_Spam wrote:Or you know... Any guy that plays a "Quality over Quantity" army.

If I have a Warlord Titan, a model that goes for 3000 points, it would be stupid to see it die to guardsmen fire (Mathhammer wise, it only takes 100 guardsmen in rapid fire range with FRFSRF to kill it). It doesn't even make sense logically nor fluff wise. It would be akin to suggesting my Airsoft gun can kill an Abrams tank if I fire enough times.

Then don't use Titans. Nuff said.

Traditio wrote:

Tactical_Spam wrote:Or you know... Any guy that plays a "Quality over Quantity" army.

If I have a Warlord Titan, a model that goes for 3000 points, it would be stupid to see it die to guardsmen fire (Mathhammer wise, it only takes 100 guardsmen in rapid fire range with FRFSRF to kill it). It doesn't even make sense logically nor fluff wise. It would be akin to suggesting my Airsoft gun can kill an Abrams tank if I fire enough times.

Then don't use Titans. Nuff said.

It was a hypothetical scenerio, but I see you want everyone to play nothing with nothing but guardsmen models or ork boys. There is really no point in arguing against you because you are either a troll, stubborn or maybe a combination of the two.

Edit: I should add how you flippantly disregarded bringing the largest models in Warhammer simply because you don't like Wraithknights. Titans aren't even overpowered, but you feel the need to bash them with the nerfhammer so fething hard that you would go as far as making them completely obselete from the tabletop, as if they weren't a rarity before.

Tactical_Spam wrote:It was a hypothetical scenerio, but I see you want everyone to play nothing with nothing but guardsmen models or ork boys. There is really no point in arguing against you because you are either a troll, stubborn or maybe a combination of the two.

I play space marines and I don't like the fact that bolters are basically useless depending on my opponent's army list.

Traditio wrote:

Tactical_Spam wrote:It was a hypothetical scenerio, but I see you want everyone to play nothing with nothing but guardsmen models or ork boys. There is really no point in arguing against you because you are either a troll, stubborn or maybe a combination of the two.

I play space marines and I don't like the fact that bolters are basically useless depending on my opponent's army list.

You sir deserve an award. Playing Space Marines and your Bolters do nothing? Are you running nothing but foot soldiers? There is not one single T7 or AV12 vehicle on the opponent's side? Are you daft, man?

New Ork tactic: spam 30 man Grot-bobs.

Nothing can stop 30 str 2 hots that hit 1/2 the time and wound/glance everything on 6's when they are that dirt cheap.

Tactical_Spam wrote:

You sir deserve an award. Playing Space Marines and your Bolters do nothing? Are you running nothing but foot soldiers? There is not one single T7 or AV12 vehicle on the opponent's side? Are you daft, man?

1. Bolters can only affect AV 10 vehicles.

2. There are armies which only use T8 or higher things or AV 11 or higher vehicles. A friend of mine is a TFG. He will not hesitate to run a wraithknight in a 750 point game.

Basically, my problem with this game is that there are certain units which are completely useless against other units. That annoys me to no end.


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 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
New Ork tactic: spam 30 man Grot-bobs.

Nothing can stop 30 str 2 hots that hit 1/2 the time and wound/glance everything on 6's when they are that dirt cheap.

Sounds like a good reason not to spam wraithknights and tanks!

Traditio wrote:

Tactical_Spam wrote:It was a hypothetical scenerio, but I see you want everyone to play nothing with nothing but guardsmen models or ork boys. There is really no point in arguing against you because you are either a troll, stubborn or maybe a combination of the two.

I play space marines and I don't like the fact that bolters are basically useless depending on my opponent's army list.

And you have zero other weapons to take on your opponent? No melta? No plasma? No grav? You literally have nothing but bolters? No vehicles? Great. My Tactical Squad Sergeant can now theoretically go take down a Warlord Titan. I understand that you're frustrated, but this is just a bad idea in general.

Traditio wrote:

Tactical_Spam wrote:

You sir deserve an award. Playing Space Marines and your Bolters do nothing? Are you running nothing but foot soldiers? There is not one single T7 or AV12 vehicle on the opponent's side? Are you daft, man?

1. Bolters can only affect AV 10 vehicles.

2. There are armies which only use T8 or higher things or AV 11 or higher vehicles.

Basically, my problem with this game is that there are certain units which are completely useless against other units. That annoys me to no end.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
New Ork tactic: spam 30 man Grot-bobs.

Nothing can stop 30 str 2 hots that hit 1/2 the time and wound/glance everything on 6's when they are that dirt cheap.

Sounds like a good reason not to spam wraithknights and tanks!

Ever heard of krak grenades? Or hell, special and heavy weapons? Do you not own a single Vindicator or Predator? I metaphorically have no sympathy for you because you can't tailor a list. You are griping because certain models are useless against others, but instead of actually relying on a unit that can hurt the "unhurtable," you wish to make the game unplayable... All because little Timmy can't write a list...

Edit: Sounds like a good reason not to spam Wraithknights and tanks? When did a Landraider Phobos become so over powered that we needed every gun to have the ability to glance it?

War Kitten 679627 wrote:My Tactical Squad Sergeant can now theoretically go take down a Warlord Titan.

Yup. And I'm cool with that.


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Tactical_Spam wrote: you wish to make the game unplayable

You would consider the game unplayable if you can't spam the most broken thing in your codex and expect an insta-win?

Noted.

Traditio wrote:

War Kitten 679627 wrote:My Tactical Squad Sergeant can now theoretically go take down a Warlord Titan.

Yup. And I'm cool with that.


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Tactical_Spam wrote: you wish to make the game unplayable

You would consider the game unplayable if you can't spam the most broken thing in your codex and expect an insta-win?

Noted.

The fact that you are cool with that is nothing short of disturbing. Boltguns should not do anything to a Titan. I get that you're bitter. But this kind of dramatic change is uncalled for. And I say this as a Marine and Guard player.

War Kitten wrote:The fact that you are cool with that is nothing short of disturbing. Boltguns should not do anything to a Titan. I get that you're bitter. But this kind of dramatic change is uncalled for. And I say this as a Marine and Guard player.

Speaking in terms of fluff: And an X-wing fighter shouldn't be able to take down the Death Star. But hey, we know how that worked out.

You are telling me that a Titan has absolutely no vulnerabilities that could be exploited, albeit rarely and on occassion, by bolter fire or chain sword?

Speaking in terms of game: if I am only using tactical marines and you are only using titans, then I might as well concede the game before we even deploy.

No legitimate army list should be invulnerable to any other legitimate army list. Period.

Traditio wrote:

War Kitten 679627 wrote:My Tactical Squad Sergeant can now theoretically go take down a Warlord Titan.

Yup. And I'm cool with that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tactical_Spam wrote: you wish to make the game unplayable

You would consider the game unplayable if you can't spam the most broken thing in your codex and expect an insta-win?

Noted.

I would consider the game broken if we let you write the rules. Shall we Ignore cover on a 6 too? How about everything is AP2? How about we don't even show up to play?