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I played with the following experimental 2000pt Mono-Tzeentch Daemonic Incursion list last night. The main aim was to evaluate how effective the strength bonuses to witchfires were.

Daemonic Incursion Detachment

Warpflame Host Formation
Herald, Disc, Exalted Locus, Paradox, ML3
Exalted Flamer
Exalted Flamer
3x Flamers of Tzeentch
3x Flamers of Tzeentch
14x Horrors, Icon
11x Horrors, Icon, Instrument
11x Horrors
11x Horrors
11x Horrors

Daemon Lord
Lord of Change, Greater Reward x2, Lesser Reward, Impossible Robe, ML3

Daemon Flock
5x Furies

Combined Arms Detachment

HQ
Herald of Tzeentch, Disc, Grimoire, ML3

Troops
11x Horrors
11x Horrors

Fast Attack
9x Screamers

Fortification
Void Shield Generator, 3x Void Shields

So the army had 23WC base, all of the horror units rolled on Malefic, fishing up a few Cursed Earths and various conjuration options.
The Grimoire Herald rolled on Divination taking Prescience and also getting Forewarning.
The LoC also rolled on Divination, again taking Prescience and also getting Precognition.
The Warpflame Herald rolled on Malefic, fishing for Cursed Earth but didn't get it.
I thought it would be needed to get 2 Prescience due to the Horrors BS, and didn't think it was worth fishing on the Change table.

The two Heralds joined the Screamers, basic plan was to maintain a 2++ with Grimoire and Cursed Earth, and also a 2++ on the LoC with the Impossible Robe and Cursed Earth. Warpflame Herald to cast WC3 Flickering Fires using the Paradox, LoC to also cast FF and CC things, and other Horror units to cast FF having been Prescienced as required. Unfortunately the Disc Herald didn't get Cursed Earth but I advanced a good few horror units along with the Screamerstar and LoC into the central area to give Cursed Earth coverage from them and also for FF options. Another setback was the Grimoire failing a couple of times, requiring the use of Forewarning and Cursed Earth to get back to a 3++. The LoC stayed on the ground and casting Precognition was too good to pass up.

What I had expected, and the game more or less confirmed, was that even though there were so many Horror units, it was only really feasible to cast 2x WC3 Flicker Fires after the other powers. To be fair they were putting out around 15ish S7 shots each though. I played a Ravenwing army which was somewhat unfortunate in that they were rocking rerollable jink saves, but Prescienced mass FF shooting was good enough to take a flyer out in one attack which was pleasing. The 2++ LoC was an absolute combat beast though, he was acting as a virtually unkillable fire magnet while squishing many bikes with the +2 Str Staff. Screamerstar was similarly resilient. The Detachment bonuses were generally very good though, the corrupting objectives thing was excellent, and while I never rolled poorly on the Warpstorm the +1/-1 modifier was good insurance. Even the reroll instability tests came in useful when some of my Horror units were assaulted.

In summary the FF witchfire approach was a bit underwhelming, I don't think there is enough of a return on the increased strength shooting for the outlay you have to make on the 9 Tzeentch units. Even with all the Horror WC batteries, mass witchfire just didn't seem sustainable. The Ravenwing matchup wasn't the best in terms of shooting targets though and maybe it would have been more fruitful against a different army. The other point I would make is that it was an absolute PITA to manage so many horror units, keeping track of powers etc. and moving them into suitable positions for Cursed Earth bubbles which also decreased the enjoyment somewhat. This would probably become easier with repeated games though and I would probably give the list a couple more tries and see if it could be refined. Any suggestion for this are welcome.

Is it maybe more feasible to try more WC1/2 casts of Flickering Fire than fewer WC3 casts? Dunno what the maths on warp charge usage might look like, but maybe that's an idea if the WC3 casts get too costly.

No. You need 3 dice to reliably cast a WC 1 power but only 5 to do WC 2, and 7 or 8 for WC 3. You increase perils odds, but it gives less random returns on the # of shots (read: consistently higher on average) for less WC per shot.

You might get lucky trying to cast it a bunch of times with less dice, but it's not the most optimal approach.

FWIW, I've found flicker fire to be underwhelming as well. I've been focusing more on buffing the durability or offensive output of my units in assault (and durability to shooting as well of course). Then again, if I took the relic to know all of change (or Fateweaver wanted to melt someone with his D laser eyes) that would be a different story

 luke1705 wrote:
No. You need 3 dice to reliably cast a WC 1 power but only 5 to do WC 2, and 7 or 8 for WC 3. You increase perils odds, but it gives less random returns on the # of shots (read: consistently higher on average) for less WC per shot.

I don't think this is the case. It may only be 2 more dice to get from WC1 to WC2 but you only get an single d6 extra shooting.

To put it perspective a WC1 FF costs 3 dice for 2d6 shots so is a 2:3 (66% efficient) ratio while WC 2 FF needs 5 dice for 3 shots so is 3:5 ratio (or 60% efficient) and WC3 FF is 4:7 ratio (57% efficient)

So it is more efficient to throw multiple WC1 flicker fires

I played at a tournament yesterday and got 3rd place with a list that mixed Vraksian Renegades and Heretics with a Lord of Change, Bloodthirster, and Keeper of Secrets rocking the new artifacts. They did extremely well and I was very pleased. My 365 point Lord of Change is a total beast even though I never had him cast anything except sometimes Cursed Earth.

I thought about how to change my list so that I could run a Daemonic Incursion and have the Lord of Change be the Warlord rolling on the Tzeentch table, and I decided to drop 6 Vraksian Spawn and the Keeper of Secrets to

1850 points.

Daemonic Incursion Detachment
Warlord: LoC, fighter ace, lvl 3, 2 greater gifts, 1 lesser gift
Daemon Lord: D-thirster
6 squads of 3x Nurglings
10 plaguebearers
Herald of Nurgle, lvl 2, doomsday bell, balesword, etherblade, palaquin, FNP locus
5 furies

Vraksian Renegades and Heretics, The Purge Detachment
Renegade Vraks command squad
Renegade 2 squads of 3x chaos spawn
Renegade 4x wyverns
Renegade 3 squads of 3x rapier laser destroyers + 6x crew with weapons training.

LoC has 4 ways of getting rerollable 2++. D thirster kills scary stuff. Herald and his squad holds the backfield / center against almost anything. Nurglings infiltrate to get every open maelstrom objective turn 1, and the rest either deep strike to annoy enemy backfield squads or go with your LoC and Dthirster for the Tallyband -T and -I debuff...even fearless units have to take the test every turn,and Doomsday Bell makes this a -1 LD test. 45 points is amazing for nurglings when combined with the Tallyband and Daemonic Incursion bonuses. Don't forgot the +1 and -1 options for the warp storm table!

Yeah I had the feeling the tzeentch core would be underwhelming. Shame as I love tzeentch but its just too much reliance on WC to effectively work.

 Solosam47 wrote:
Yeah I had the feeling the tzeentch core would be underwhelming. Shame as I love tzeentch but its just too much reliance on WC to effectively work.

The tzeench auxillary looks like a ball of fun tho, I think the Khorn core formation is the most viable although I'm hoping to try the slannesh one this thursday ^_^ looking forward to it

 CrownAxe wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
No. You need 3 dice to reliably cast a WC 1 power but only 5 to do WC 2, and 7 or 8 for WC 3. You increase perils odds, but it gives less random returns on the # of shots (read: consistently higher on average) for less WC per shot.

I don't think this is the case. It may only be 2 more dice to get from WC1 to WC2 but you only get an single d6 extra shooting.

To put it perspective a WC1 FF costs 3 dice for 2d6 shots so is a 2:3 (66% efficient) ratio while WC 2 FF needs 5 dice for 3 shots so is 3:5 ratio (or 60% efficient) and WC3 FF is 4:7 ratio (57% efficient)

So it is more efficient to throw multiple WC1 flicker fires

In an ideal scenario yes, but you also need to factor in the likelihood of DtW as well. Lower WC casting with less dice will have less successful rolls and easier to deny. Also there's the Warpflame rule to consider so you don't want to spread FF around thinly between different targets. You might need to try casting multiple WC1 against the same target which then requires multiple units to be in range etc.

@Virules

What are your tactics with all the nurglings like? Infiltrate and harass, or deep strike? Also, do you go offensive and stay on the ground with the LoC?
Do you just have your herald +PB unit hide around, or do you run them offensive as well?

 gwarsh41 wrote:
@Virules

What are your tactics with all the nurglings like? Infiltrate and harass, or deep strike? Also, do you go offensive and stay on the ground with the LoC?
Do you just have your herald +PB unit hide around, or do you run them offensive as well?

The Lord of Change I will start on the ground; even if my opponent pours his whole army into shooting it, the LoC should survive one turn, maybe even without a wound. If I roll poorly on gifts I may start flying, cast cursed earth, move into opponent's backline, and then deep strike in nurglings and hopefully herald squad for a massed turn 3 charge. The bigger question for me is whether to start the Bloodthirster flying or not, since I don't have the points for an invisibility caster or for greater gifts on him. In most cases I think I keep things on the ground and assault turn 2.

The nurglings and plaguebearers depend on the setup. Top priority is to infiltrate on top of open objectives, and to corrupt my own near my artillery units so that I am controlling even if my opponent contests with a non-ObSec unit. If I am against a very shooty army, I will probably infiltrate the rest as close as possible, in cover, and try for a turn 2 charge. If the enemy gets hit by the debuff, nurglings can actually tie up a lot of squads and do damage. Versus shooty army with no deep strike/outflank, I will deep strike in the herald and his bodyguard hopefully off the LoC cursed earth. If I need someone to defend my backline or hold the center, that unit should be able to take care of most anything. The spawn run to objectives or back up my nurglings/big creatures wherever I need weight of wounds, depending on the situation. Same with the furies. The whole time, wyverns put the hurt on non-vehicle, non-MC units and the rapiers whittle down armor.

Ideally, even if I lose a lot of stuff, the combination of good scoring every turn + my wyverns, rapier, and LoC surviving most or all of the game should be all I need to get the right combination of strong points and heavy damage dealing.

Am I missing something? How are the daemons getting infiltrate?

Also, what are the 4 ways of getting turning the 3++ robe into a 2++? I don't see a Grimiore in your list Virules.

Nurglings come stock with infiltrate! It's something I forgot too. Makes that Tally Band formation a little better.

The fours ways are: 1) cursed earth, 2) the Tzeentch warlord table, 3) fighter ace table, and 4) warp storm table (which is a little easier with the daemonic incursion formation letting you +1 or -1 to the roll).

What is the fighter ace table? Forgive me but I've never heard of that rule at all, let alone a table.

Fighter Ace used to be in the original supplement that gave us the very first airplane units, right before 6th or 7th edition. That stuff got updated in the Shield of Baal campaign.

Every faction has its own table that a flier or flying MC can roll on for 35 points. The Chaos Daemon one is as follows:

1-2 : re-roll failed to wound or armor penetration rolls on vector strike (this is outdated, since vector strike used to me D3 instead o1 hit, so this result used to be better)
3-4: +1 wound
5-6: improve invulnerable save by +1

Obviously 3-6 are the best results.

Fun fact: with this table and the greater gifts, you can potentially have a 7-wound IWND Lord of Change

Hi, I made this list and was wondering if it was competetive at all.

Warpflame Host
Herald of Tzeentch with disc, paradox and exalted locus
9 Exalted flamers

Forgehost
3 Soulgrinders with daemon of Nurgle and phlegm bombardment

Grand Cavalcade
Herald of Slaanesh with steed, ML1 and exalted locus
20 Seekers with rapturous standard
5 Seeker chariots

Bloodthirster of insenste rage with armour of scorn
Total - 2000 points

The herald of Slaanesh would most likely be my warlord for a chance at the trait that lets you run and charge in the same turn.

Its worth noting that casting flickering fire on a Bs4 model affects the value ratio compared to a bs3 model.

So, Virules, it's still legal for me to use that table in my army?

@Virules

Seems like a pretty fun list to run. I would need a lot more nurglings to try it out. Do you feel like the tallyband is worth it? Or that you could do better saving the points from the 6 nurgling units and putting them elsewhere?

4 wyverns man. I get enough flakk when my R&H have 2! You should have seen the faces when I had 2 wyvers and 2 units of 2 quad launchers. People hate those things!
Here is an 1850 I just tossed together using the Rotswarm and Purge.


6 individual beasts
8 drones, proboscis, character+etherblade
Herald+Palanquin, FnP, ML2, etherblade (Not quite sold on anything else. Bell could be useful for moral checks, greater reward would be S6, corruption would be pretty nice as well)

Command squad - Ordnance tyrant - Nurgle
Blight drone (could drop and replace with zombies for rewards on herald)
Medusa artillery- breacher shells, militia training
Medusa artillery- breacher shells, militia training
EarthShaker Artillery
Heavy Mortar
Heavy Mortar
Quad Launcher
Quad Launcher
Quad Launcher
3x Rapier Laser Militia training
3x Rapier Laser Militia training
Wyvern
Wyvern
All artillery have max crew save for 1 mortar.

I love running ordnance tyrant, but always have issue with objectives. My strategy has always been to just sloth +60 zombies forward. When I have brought daemon allies, its been amazing. With 6 beasts, and a supercharged drone star. If I can make that leadership check, its 49 normal attacks, and 8 ap2 attacks on the charge, plus the herald from the drone unit. I am contemplating putting the grimoire on the herald, instead of the lesser reward, just in case I wind up facing knights or something similar.

Ys, fighter ace is legal.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
@Virules

Seems like a pretty fun list to run. I would need a lot more nurglings to try it out. Do you feel like the tallyband is worth it? Or that you could do better saving the points from the 6 nurgling units and putting them elsewhere?

4 wyverns man. I get enough flakk when my R&H have 2! You should have seen the faces when I had 2 wyvers and 2 units of 2 quad launchers. People hate those things!

You can make 18 nurgling swarms from 3 boxes worth, if you split them up. That's my plan.

In and of itself, the nurglings and furies are not worth it. I would love more points for cheap R&H spawn, or something with more kick (like a third MC). That's exactly what I had in the tournament yesterday.

However, if you want to run a LoC, a BT, and one or more Heralds, you need a CAD + Allied anyway. So you're already taking 3 troops choices. I may decide that taking 1 swarm of nurglings and two squads of 11 or 12 horrors each is a better use of points, especially since I'll have more psychic dice. Then you could also grab a Paradox tzeentch herald, and maybe more plague bearers in the big squad, depending on points.

But I think the advantages of the Tally Band are 1) I think that debuff from the nurglings and plague bearers has the potential to be secretly amazing, 2) the +1 / -1 to the warp storm table takes the risk out of daemons primary, which feels needed without the fateweaver as WL, and 3) all the nurglings + the daemonic corruption rule could be amazing for raking up points with maelstrom.

Oh, I didn't know they could parse out into so many units. Ill have to look into that! I've been making them out of the old metal ones.

I edited my above post to add a list I was working on earlier. I am considering trying it tomorrow. The more I think about it, the more I am thinking about swapping the blight drone for zombies and either the grimoire or the bell for the herald. The bell +Shell shock could be pretty nice!

 gwarsh41 wrote:
@Virules

Seems like a pretty fun list to run. I would need a lot more nurglings to try it out. Do you feel like the tallyband is worth it? Or that you could do better saving the points from the 6 nurgling units and putting them elsewhere?

4 wyverns man. I get enough flakk when my R&H have 2! You should have seen the faces when I had 2 wyvers and 2 units of 2 quad launchers. People hate those things!
Here is an 1850 I just tossed together using the Rotswarm and Purge.


6 individual beasts
8 drones, proboscis, character+etherblade
Herald+Palanquin, FnP, ML2, etherblade (Not quite sold on anything else. Bell could be useful for moral checks, greater reward would be S6, corruption would be pretty nice as well)

Command squad - Ordnance tyrant - Nurgle
Blight drone (could drop and replace with zombies for rewards on herald)
Medusa artillery- breacher shells, militia training
Medusa artillery- breacher shells, militia training
EarthShaker Artillery
Heavy Mortar
Heavy Mortar
Quad Launcher
Quad Launcher
Quad Launcher
3x Rapier Laser Militia training
3x Rapier Laser Militia training
Wyvern
Wyvern
All artillery have max crew save for 1 mortar.

I love running ordnance tyrant, but always have issue with objectives. My strategy has always been to just sloth +60 zombies forward. When I have brought daemon allies, its been amazing. With 6 beasts, and a supercharged drone star. If I can make that leadership check, its 49 normal attacks, and 8 ap2 attacks on the charge, plus the herald from the drone unit. I am contemplating putting the grimoire on the herald, instead of the lesser reward, just in case I wind up facing knights or something similar.

I've discovered that cheap chaos spawn take care of the objective grab no problem.

Yeah, those chaos spawn are pretty awesome. I only recently started running them with ordnance tyrant though. I find myself filling the army with all my artillery too quickly. Sometimes I run Dual Purge though! Purge is such a wonderful thing.

I don't think I have ever tried one with legitimate spawn spam though. I will try that out. I have tried Giant chaos spawn with my purge, and they did amazing at protecting my artillery. One punched out a daemon prince.

Reavas wrote:

 Solosam47 wrote:
Yeah I had the feeling the tzeentch core would be underwhelming. Shame as I love tzeentch but its just too much reliance on WC to effectively work.

The tzeench auxillary looks like a ball of fun tho, I think the Khorn core formation is the most viable although I'm hoping to try the slannesh one this thursday ^_^ looking forward to it

The auxillaries for all the chaos gods look real good, for me though I feel nurgle tallyband and slaanesh will be the better cores out of the book. Tallyband being potentially very cheap while slaanesh getting the speed to capture objectives.

i would like to try this at tournament

murder horde decurion
herald of K, juggernaut, lesser rew, exalted locus
2x10 bloodletters
6x5 hounds
5 furies

CAD demons
kairos (or loc with impposible robes, 2 great.rewards 3°lev)
2x11 orrors
Tz herald 3°lev. exalted rew disc
1500 pts 11WC

Does Everstave work with Warpflame Host Formation?

 blackmage wrote:
i would like to try this at tournament

murder horde decurion
herald of K, juggernaut, lesser rew, exalted locus
2x10 bloodletters
6x5 hounds
5 furies

CAD demons
kairos (or loc with impposible robes, 2 great.rewards 3°lev)
2x11 orrors
Tz herald 3°lev. exalted rew disc
1500 pts 11WC

This doesnt look too bad, I would probably go LoC myself, maybe switch around some stuff and try to squeeze a few more hounds into the group that the Khorne herald strolls with. Shame you have to take furies thought, never did like them at all. I have seen a few lists like this though where its a core and a CAD, still having a rough time wanting to go core but with the CAD there it helps and makes me want to give a better look.

Take Karanak instead of furies if you want. More expensive, but is an option.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Take Karanak instead of furies if you want. More expensive, but is an option.

Can you replace the furies with Karanak? Dont have my book on me.

Karanak is another aux option, yeh.

Yeah I would totally do Karanak then to roll with another hound squad.